559 réponses à ce sujet

[billbong]

I'm not too worried about "casualization". The dialogue is the most important aspect to me to improve on, i really hope for more not less. I think they've got all their bases covered, just hope the relationships from DAO1 to 2 are (allowed to be) handled better than mass effect were.



For me dragon age is the mabari's bollocks, just wish the parts i enjoy the most weren't chipped away untill look like penis in winter. Still thouroughly enjoyable

[asaiasai]

I do not know what a lot of you folks are screaming about, DAO is as difficult as you the player choose it to be. Push the difficulty to the top, use no bonus gear and see how far you can go. If your complaining because nightmare is to easy while you run around in the tier 7 Wardens commander plate, waving Starfang, your just not trying hard enough, I suggest store all the bonus gear and run around in plain armor waving plain weapons and see how far you can go. The combat mechanics are detailed enough that a beginner can succeed, while allowing a pro to add that extra panache, as with any system there will be those who figure out how to “hyper-pump the buss”, that is not a developer issue it is more of a player choice. I personally like the idea of having a challenging enough fight, but sometimes I just want to kick ass, if I was looking for a Sado-Masochistic experience I can get that downtown for 100 bucks. I have been gaming for over 20 years, while I am not your typical gamer mostly because of my age, I am however enough of a fanatic that I just spent close to 2500 dollars in parts to put together THE ULTIMATE gaming rig. Which if your interested PM me and I will send you the parts list from Newegg. I have played DAO 17 completed times now and I have just started my first Dwarven castless rogue for number 18. DAO does so much right in comparison to some of the trash that I affectionately call my expanding pile of dust collectors that while not perfect is damn close.
 
I have not heard a more apt description of EA than a blight on the gaming world, considering the forum we are in that is apropo. The problem is as it always will be, there are people who run these corporations who are educated beyond their intelligence level, and they are in control. These effete individuals more than likely do not game and would have no clue what a good game is, all they know is it sold well, and for them that is what makes a good game. It seems to me so long as the game sells well they do not care why, which will always be counterintuitive to making good games. I tease myself about what EA might do to my beloved DAO, “EA sports presents, a Madden/Priestly production of Blightball  February 2011”. You the player get to take your beloved DAO characters in a lame ass athletic competition against forces of darkness “we will even go so far as to find some over paid ball monkey to endorse this product and a fan contest to pick the ball monkey for the cover art”, I would rather have my eyes gouged out with a grapefruit spoon thank you very much. This is the “Mass Effect”, effect, dumbing the game down to appeal to a broader market as opposed to satisfying one’s self to being king of their respective market. It is sad that the effete folks at EA will never understand the fact that this will invariably cause you to loose with your core fans, so you will gain on one side and loose on the other to the detriment of the company and title. This is the reputation EA has earned and well deservedly so, this creates a situation where you are just another game company competing with hundreds of titles buried in mediocrity all in a race to the bottom. I myself would rather be king in a small pond than a commoner in the ocean, satisfyied that I have stayed true to what made me great.  
 
Bioware has missed a few details in DAO sure, due to programming limitations, lack of foresight, and I am sure to some extent EA’s shoot straight for lowest common denominator approach, but it has still been a pleasure to play this game, even after 17 times. Let us talk about what Bioware did right for a change instead of what they did wrong. The story was epic, and for being told in a game they did a good job of creating a sense of anxiety and belonging. The unparalleled character customization that goes farther than face or gear, it goes to the very soul of the character due to the moral ambiguity of every decision. The warden is truly the player’s warden, the faults and flaws of each warden are unique and player created by the choices they exercise in the game. The player has to make decisions then deal with the consequences of those decisions, for better or for worse, and the player has no one to blame but themselves, that is just so fricken awesome. The NPCs were rich and inspiring to the point that they feel like friends and the player is actually drawn to or repulsed by those characters to such a level that they have provoked heated exchanges on these forums, that is a rarity, and is something to be proud of. The dialog options while not covering every response do a good job of allowing the player to feel like they are actually participating in the game events, creating their warden on the fly, not just a passenger along for the ride. They allow the player to set the tone for how they want to be perceived by the characters around them, and to a limited degree the world does respond.
 
I am keeping my fingers crossed that DA2 will be as Epic as DAO was. I am hoping they spend the time to add some continuity to the story mostly that the decisions that each warden made become cannon for that particular warden. If I do not get to continue my original wardens into the next installment that is ok, almost to a degree that I would almost prefer it, but I would like to deal with the consequences of my previous decisions (do you kill or spare the Architect). I will trust Bioware to do DA2 justice, and in all likelihood buy it as a preorder because that is the level of faith I have that from what I have seen from key individuals is  justified. If that faith is misplaced then future offerings will be subjected to scrutiny, Bioware just stay true to what made DAO so good and the rest will be easy.
 
Asai

[nubbers666]

like many have said if dao 2 becomes a hack and slash i wont buy the whole reason i liked dao was the story line and the interactions if they dumb it down then the whole point of playing the game for me goes out the door

[SDNcN]

Ivellios goladon wrote...

The casual players does not want to go to camp, spend 30 minutes there talking to people. They want the conversations to be simpler, streamlined, and also more time efficient so when they are doing quests they will learn about their companion characters, instead of (Previously stated) sitting in a camp waiting in line to speak with each character. Easily accessible is what the casual player wants. casual player is probably going to want to head into the action, then have your companion tell me a story about how this location relates to them. Awesome, now I didn't have to wait to go back to camp sit there and say your stuff, once your done I can go back to my quest, and not have to go to the next companion in line.

Wow, this is the first time I've seen a 'hardcore' conversationalist.
I love you internets.

[Darth Drago]

Ivellios goladon wrote...

Ah, the casual vs. hardcore debate rises..

Let's just end this quickly and say the casual side wins!

Ok, but seriously I have been a huge fan of Bioware, and all of their projects that they have done. I've played BG, BG2 +ToB, NWN + all expansions, ME + ME2, DA:O. (Who really cares though? This doesn't give me much credit ) The truth is that Bioware, which is a company, is looking to make profit they will sell to the bigger market. In order to sell to the bigger market they will have to start a project that the bigger market will purchase, and lets face it, it's casual players.

The casual players does not want to go to camp, spend 30 minutes there talking to people. They want the conversations to be simpler, streamlined, and also more time efficient so when they are doing quests they will learn about their companion characters, instead of (Previously stated) sitting in a camp waiting in line to speak with each character. Easily accessible is what the casual player wants. casual player is probably going to want to head into the action, then have your companion tell me a story about how this location relates to them. Awesome, now I didn't have to wait to go back to camp sit there and say your stuff, once your done I can go back to my quest, and not have to go to the next companion in line.

Now, I'm in no way hating on the casual player, I understand where the casual player is coming from. Heck I myself with time constraints am becoming more of a casual player, I want to know whats going in this story and I don't have the patience or time to sit here and have my companions tell me there life story, and to go on to the next one, and so forth.

Is this where Bioware is headed to cater to the casuals? More than likely, lets look at MMO's. WoW it has dominated the MMO space. Why? It's easy to learn, easy to play, and people can learn it very easily as they go on. It's accessible. We've already heard from Bioware on SWTOR that they're not going to for hardcore players, they're going for the casuals.

So what do the hardcore players do if the trend continues to cater to casual gamers? Indie developers might be their hope. Quick switch back to MMO's, anyone played EvE? or Ultima Online? Those are what we might consider hardcore MMO's..and as we know hardcore + MMO's =/= profit (or very much). There is a indie Sweden developer that are in the process of making a project, its called Mortal Online. Anyway, they are essentially bringing back the 'hardcore' aspect back to MMO's, with full PVP, Open world, Strict death penalty, will able to steal from other players, loot other player corpses. Etc. if you look at the screen shots, graphics are definitely not up to part with current games, there are probably lots of bugs, and servers lag insane (Or so I've heard).

It looks like the hardcore players have a choice.
1. Accept the casual games.
2. Support (some) indie developers, which you probably will much more of an open channel to as far as communication goes.
3. Stop gaming.

At least thats what I can think of as far as options go.

/flame

-So let me get this straight.
1. We should just jump ship and go play MMO games.
2. Support independent game companies.
3. Give up and accept the game as it is.
4. Stop gaming.

Um, no. (great point of view though)

1. I play games on my x-box 360 mainly. I for one do not like MMO games that much since they typically force you to play with others to get quests done. With my experience with World of Warcraft I left it because the game was getting dumbed down to the point I just hated the game.

2. Why would I want to go support some independent game company when I enjoy the games made by BioWare (or used to)? I liked Mass Effect 1 and I like Dragon Age Origins. To bad I cant say the same about ME2 and currently have absolutely no interest in spending $40 for a 15 hour game like Awakenings. Shivering Isles was $30 for about 20 hours of game play. But if BioWare decides to pretty much screw it audience by going completely causal then going to any other game developer is the only choice.

3. Oh hell no. If BioWare goes all casual and start making all their game with the casual gamer only in mind they will loose me as a customer and probably others as well. BioWare was a game company I could trust to make a solid game with a good story that took more than 30 hours (at least) to play.

4. This goes right in hand with #3 above. I’ll spend my money on other games from other developers rather than support more crappy overpriced games that take 15 hours to play.

(No wonder the used game industry is beating the snot out of EA, to many short games aimed at casual gamers.)

The only solution I see is to keep fighting and voicing concerns about drastic changes to the Dragon Age franchise. Its already to late for the Mass Effect games, the damage is already done and to severe to consider saving.

-BioWare, if you want to cater to the casual gamer then do it with a new title. Don’t destroy the ones you already have established just to make a quick buck and screw over your core audience.

[I Valente I]

Darth Drago wrote...

Ivellios goladon wrote...

Ah, the casual vs. hardcore debate rises..

Let's just end this quickly and say the casual side wins!

Ok, but seriously I have been a huge fan of Bioware, and all of their projects that they have done. I've played BG, BG2 +ToB, NWN + all expansions, ME + ME2, DA:O. (Who really cares though? This doesn't give me much credit ) The truth is that Bioware, which is a company, is looking to make profit they will sell to the bigger market. In order to sell to the bigger market they will have to start a project that the bigger market will purchase, and lets face it, it's casual players.

The casual players does not want to go to camp, spend 30 minutes there talking to people. They want the conversations to be simpler, streamlined, and also more time efficient so when they are doing quests they will learn about their companion characters, instead of (Previously stated) sitting in a camp waiting in line to speak with each character. Easily accessible is what the casual player wants. casual player is probably going to want to head into the action, then have your companion tell me a story about how this location relates to them. Awesome, now I didn't have to wait to go back to camp sit there and say your stuff, once your done I can go back to my quest, and not have to go to the next companion in line.

Now, I'm in no way hating on the casual player, I understand where the casual player is coming from. Heck I myself with time constraints am becoming more of a casual player, I want to know whats going in this story and I don't have the patience or time to sit here and have my companions tell me there life story, and to go on to the next one, and so forth.

Is this where Bioware is headed to cater to the casuals? More than likely, lets look at MMO's. WoW it has dominated the MMO space. Why? It's easy to learn, easy to play, and people can learn it very easily as they go on. It's accessible. We've already heard from Bioware on SWTOR that they're not going to for hardcore players, they're going for the casuals.

So what do the hardcore players do if the trend continues to cater to casual gamers? Indie developers might be their hope. Quick switch back to MMO's, anyone played EvE? or Ultima Online? Those are what we might consider hardcore MMO's..and as we know hardcore + MMO's =/= profit (or very much). There is a indie Sweden developer that are in the process of making a project, its called Mortal Online. Anyway, they are essentially bringing back the 'hardcore' aspect back to MMO's, with full PVP, Open world, Strict death penalty, will able to steal from other players, loot other player corpses. Etc. if you look at the screen shots, graphics are definitely not up to part with current games, there are probably lots of bugs, and servers lag insane (Or so I've heard).

It looks like the hardcore players have a choice.
1. Accept the casual games.
2. Support (some) indie developers, which you probably will much more of an open channel to as far as communication goes.
3. Stop gaming.

At least thats what I can think of as far as options go.

/flame

-So let me get this straight.
1. We should just jump ship and go play MMO games.
2. Support independent game companies.
3. Give up and accept the game as it is.
4. Stop gaming.

Um, no. (great point of view though)

 

your post is a perfect example of a straw man. You have just misquoted and generalized his argument(which is a good one) into some kind of outrageous unsupported conclusion, and then your respone is a measly "um, no"? seriously? You should read over the post again seeing as you, in fact, did NOT get it straight. Forgive my intrusion, it's not often I see such a perfect example of bad logic that it belongs in a textbook.

[GardenSnake]

KragCulloden wrote...

For what its worth I loved Mass Effect - loved it. Played ME2 once, despised it, haven't touched it since nor bought any DLC for it. Loved Kotor, Kotor II (

Kotor II is your favorite game? I'm NOTe ALONE YYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!! And I have to agree with the OP, dumbing down DA would suck. I've also only played ME2 once but I didn't dislike it because of the striped down inventory and stats (it was fine but more would have been better), it was because of the Awakening-esque convo system. The characters were great, its just that with the system that was present I found myself not giving a damn and only getting their loyalty to get the 'everyone survived' achievement and to screw Miranda (I loves me some Miranda). People who complain about listening to lots of text need a reality check. Your playing a 50 plus hour game. Twenty minutes of interesting and engaging dialouge between a party member and you is part of what makes a Bioware rpg well...... a Bioware rpg. Stick to what works I say.  

[Tinxa]

Hmm I wouldn't say any MMOs are for casual players as you really don't get anywhere playing casually. You chars are lowlevel, getting ganked everywhere and you have to adapt your play time to fit with your friends, plus you have to pay every month and want to get your money worth. If you make a mistake and get killed (or worse get others killed) people yell at you.. and so on. It really isn't worth playing if you don't have the significant time to put into it.

[SDNcN]

There is a indie Sweden developer that are in the process of making a
project, its called Mortal Online. Anyway, they are essentially bringing
back the 'hardcore' aspect back to MMO's, with full PVP, Open world,
Strict death penalty, will able to steal from other players, loot other
player corpses. Etc. if you look at the screen shots, graphics are
definitely not up to part with current games, there are probably lots of
bugs, and servers lag insane (Or so I've heard).

Heh. A quick glance at their team when the game was first announced gave me enough information to stay away. I was right.

Mortal Online Fun Facts:

* No one on their team has ever released a piece of software in their lives.
* The lead programmer's only real experience is modding with Unreal 3.
* The main investor is one of their dads.
* No one on their team has experience working with Network Coding and they are producing an MMO.
* They gave false tracking information for pre-orders that were not shipped.
* They refuse to provide refunds for products they never delivered.
* They've moved into the totalitarian phase of a failing game and delete threads that are negative (like asking for your money back).

Such delicous failure. At least they can produce that!

[Darth Drago]

I Valente I wrote...
your post is a perfect example of a straw man. You have just misquoted and generalized his argument(which is a good one) into some kind of outrageous unsupported conclusion, and then your respone is a measly "um, no"? seriously? You should read over the post again seeing as you, in fact, did NOT get it straight. Forgive my intrusion, it's not often I see such a perfect example of bad logic that it belongs in a textbook.

-Yep, I misquoted him by quoting his entire post. Right… My response was not just "um, no". I did say “(great point of view though)” along with a lot of other things that you apparently missed.

I did read his post, a few times in fact. From what I got out of it, hardcore gamers are going to have to adapt to the way of casual gamers, take what ever crap game they can get or just not play games at all. That EA now owns Bioware and it’s a business to make money and money only. Whatever they say on what quality of games EA wants us to see is what we’ll probably get. So get used to seeing nothing but games aimed at short attention spanned players who probably have no loyalty to the source company (BioWare) because all they care about is the shooting or hack in slash parts in a game.

GardenSnake wrote...
… People who complain about listening to lots of text need a reality check. Your playing a 50 plus hour game. Twenty minutes of interesting and engaging dialouge between a party member and you is part of what makes a Bioware rpg well...... a Bioware rpg. Stick to what works I say.

-That’s what I liked about the camp in DA. You could talk to all of your companions at your leisure. Your not forced to use everyone in the game to get to hear what they say this way. Sure you might miss out on the random banter but that’s why you can switch up your group in most places to hear them all. Besides the camp is a spot where you can catch up on things and relax a bit between all the fighting. The only thing I wish it had was a storage crate (that worked properly) so I didn’t have to go all the way to Soldiers Peak to get my stuff.

I like long meaningful dialogs in my games, even non-meaningful ones are great if done correctly. It adds depth to the game and the characters in it.

I don’t have Awakenings (and have no interest to at its price) so I cant say what was changed in the dialog system. I shouldn’t have to take everyone in the group out of camp to hear more about them or their personal quests they may have me do, if that’s what they are doing in it.

-ME2 tanked in the dialog completely. You had to hunt down certain markers to get the only dialog about what “x” thinks about the planet your on. Your companions don’t interact with each other at all beyond the scripted crap. In only in a very few cases do they even talk to each other and the best one of those requires you to use an import game to see. In all of the loyalty missions, hell for that matter all the missions everyone said the exact lines with rare differences depending on who you took. The little differences of those lines were not even that significant to notice in most cases. I don’t want to see Dragon Age become like Mass Effect 2 is. Suffered through ME2 4 times and have completely lost interest in it, even wit this new download on the way.

[SDNcN]

Darth Drago wrote...

I don’t want to see Dragon Age become like Mass Effect 2 is. Suffered through ME2 4 times and have completely lost interest in it, even wit this new download on the way.

Wow, how many times do you replay games you actually enjoy?

[Darth Drago]

SDNcN wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...

I don’t want to see Dragon Age become like Mass Effect 2 is. Suffered through ME2 4 times and have completely lost interest in it, even wit this new download on the way.

Wow, how many times do you replay games you actually enjoy?

Depends on the game. Currently this year I’ve been focused on just Mass Effect 1 and 2 and Dragon Age.
-Mass Effect 1 I’ve played 6 full games with a new one just started and waiting to go when I get back to it.
-Dragon Age I have 4 current games on it, I’m focusing on one of the new ones before I go back to finish the others. I’ll probably play that one at least 6 times in total before I even get slightly bored and that’s considering it has no real downloads compared to ME2 to keep it fresh.

Fighter or 1st person shooter games I could play several times easily and more importantly go back to them anytime.

It should be noted that most of those ME2 play throughs were only for research for my topic thread. If I had not started that discussion I doubt I would have played ME2 more than twice. Its just not that good.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 27 mai 2010 - 01:59 .

[Leon Evelake]

Darth Drago wrote...

I Valente I wrote...
your post is a perfect example of a straw man. You have just misquoted and generalized his argument(which is a good one) into some kind of outrageous unsupported conclusion, and then your respone is a measly "um, no"? seriously? You should read over the post again seeing as you, in fact, did NOT get it straight. Forgive my intrusion, it's not often I see such a perfect example of bad logic that it belongs in a textbook.

-Yep, I misquoted him by quoting his entire post. Right… My response was not just "um, no". I did say “(great point of view though)” along with a lot of other things that you apparently missed.

I did read his post, a few times in fact. From what I got out of it, hardcore gamers are going to have to adapt to the way of casual gamers, take what ever crap game they can get or just not play games at all. That EA now owns Bioware and it’s a business to make money and money only. Whatever they say on what quality of games EA wants us to see is what we’ll probably get. So get used to seeing nothing but games aimed at short attention spanned players who probably have no loyalty to the source company (BioWare) because all they care about is the shooting or hack in slash parts in a game.

GardenSnake wrote...
… People who complain about listening to lots of text need a reality check. Your playing a 50 plus hour game. Twenty minutes of interesting and engaging dialouge between a party member and you is part of what makes a Bioware rpg well...... a Bioware rpg. Stick to what works I say.

-That’s what I liked about the camp in DA. You could talk to all of your companions at your leisure. Your not forced to use everyone in the game to get to hear what they say this way. Sure you might miss out on the random banter but that’s why you can switch up your group in most places to hear them all. Besides the camp is a spot where you can catch up on things and relax a bit between all the fighting. The only thing I wish it had was a storage crate (that worked properly) so I didn’t have to go all the way to Soldiers Peak to get my stuff.

I like long meaningful dialogs in my games, even non-meaningful ones are great if done correctly. It adds depth to the game and the characters in it.

I don’t have Awakenings (and have no interest to at its price) so I cant say what was changed in the dialog system. I shouldn’t have to take everyone in the group out of camp to hear more about them or their personal quests they may have me do, if that’s what they are doing in it.

-ME2 tanked in the dialog completely. You had to hunt down certain markers to get the only dialog about what “x” thinks about the planet your on. Your companions don’t interact with each other at all beyond the scripted crap. In only in a very few cases do they even talk to each other and the best one of those requires you to use an import game to see. In all of the loyalty missions, hell for that matter all the missions everyone said the exact lines with rare differences depending on who you took. The little differences of those lines were not even that significant to notice in most cases. I don’t want to see Dragon Age become like Mass Effect 2 is. Suffered through ME2 4 times and have completely lost interest in it, even wit this new download on the way.

  Valente a well made argument does not make it true (look at politics), the post he was responding to has a attitude of "your screwed, developers don't give a damn so accept half finished, crappy, dumbed down games"  well while there is some truth in that some don't care the whole give up attitude is pathetic catering to causal gamers certainly boosts sales but the hardcore market is still important. Hard core gamers are getting fed up and buying less.  Furthermore not all game are going casual hideo kojima, tetsua nomura, and the guys who made heavy rain are examples of big to relatively big developers still making hardcore games.  I have not played a lot of bioware games but it seems they would be illsuited to being casuliazed, whether or not they will try i really dont know.  So I certainly don't believe that we just need to accept games being dumbed down.
------------------------


to GardenSnake I completely agree with your comments regarding the camp.

[Vicious]

This whole thread is based off of the ignorant opinion that EA is corrupting Bioware, rather than the actual fact that EA is giving Bioware lots of money to continue to support games like Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age:Origins, rather than having to support them out of their own pockets and ending up in failure, which is what happened to Mass Effect's DLC and support.





So lastly, what the hell is 'casualized?' Someone mind explaining that to me? Or is it a catch-all for stuff all you 'hardcore' folks don't like, meaning it completely varies from person to person and is ultimately meaningless?

[CybAnt1]

Dunno. The term strikes me as kind of meaningless as well, because people are using it in several different ways.



In an MMO context, the "casual" vs. "hardcore" distinction mostly relates to whether they play the game all the time or occasionally, and also usually their commitment to its PvP/guild aspects.



I'm not sure what it means for a SP RPG. For some, the "casual" player doesn't care about difficulty of the game, they want everything simplified and dumbed down to make it extremely easy to "beat". But then there are some who don't care about the difficulty at all ... and yet might be "hardcore" about the story/dialogue aspects. So they wouldn't care about lowering the difficulty/complexity of the game, but they would care about lesser or simplified dialogue.



I think people need to be specific about what they mean by "casualized". I know there are directions I wouldn't want the game to go in (most specifically over-simplification of mechanics or interface) ... but then I'm specific about those.

[TheMadCat]

Vicious wrote...

This whole thread is based off of the ignorant opinion that EA is corrupting Bioware, rather than the actual fact that EA is giving Bioware lots of money to continue to support games like Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age:Origins, rather than having to support them out of their own pockets and ending up in failure, which is what happened to Mass Effect's DLC and support.

I hate to break it to you, but EA was the publisher for Mass Effect and it's subsequent DLC.

[SDNcN]

Vicious wrote...

So lastly, what the hell is 'casualized?' Someone mind explaining that to me? Or is it a catch-all for stuff all you 'hardcore' folks don't like, meaning it completely varies from person to person and is ultimately meaningless?

Yes, pretty much.
It really is just attempting to empower what you like in a genre by labeling it 'hardcore' and diminish change you dislike by calling 'casual'. Usually by doing this the person fails to see that there are pros and cons to every system and writes off the pros as throwing a bone to the casuals.

Example:

Now, I'm in no way hating on the casual player, I understand where the
casual player is coming from. Heck I myself with time constraints am
becoming more of a casual player, I want to know whats going in this
story and I don't have the patience or time to sit here and have my
companions tell me there life story, and to go on to the next one, and
so forth.

Rather than look at the possible pros of spreading out a companion's story throughout the game instead of having most of it in blocks of exposition at camp; he rides  it off as a time saver for the 'casuals'.

[I Valente I]

Leon Evelake wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...

I Valente I wrote...
your post is a perfect example of a straw man. You have just misquoted and generalized his argument(which is a good one) into some kind of outrageous unsupported conclusion, and then your respone is a measly "um, no"? seriously? You should read over the post again seeing as you, in fact, did NOT get it straight. Forgive my intrusion, it's not often I see such a perfect example of bad logic that it belongs in a textbook.

-Yep, I misquoted him by quoting his entire post. Right… My response was not just "um, no". I did say “(great point of view though)” along with a lot of other things that you apparently missed.

I did read his post, a few times in fact. From what I got out of it, hardcore gamers are going to have to adapt to the way of casual gamers, take what ever crap game they can get or just not play games at all. That EA now owns Bioware and it’s a business to make money and money only. Whatever they say on what quality of games EA wants us to see is what we’ll probably get. So get used to seeing nothing but games aimed at short attention spanned players who probably have no loyalty to the source company (BioWare) because all they care about is the shooting or hack in slash parts in a game.

GardenSnake wrote...
… People who complain about listening to lots of text need a reality check. Your playing a 50 plus hour game. Twenty minutes of interesting and engaging dialouge between a party member and you is part of what makes a Bioware rpg well...... a Bioware rpg. Stick to what works I say.

-That’s what I liked about the camp in DA. You could talk to all of your companions at your leisure. Your not forced to use everyone in the game to get to hear what they say this way. Sure you might miss out on the random banter but that’s why you can switch up your group in most places to hear them all. Besides the camp is a spot where you can catch up on things and relax a bit between all the fighting. The only thing I wish it had was a storage crate (that worked properly) so I didn’t have to go all the way to Soldiers Peak to get my stuff.

I like long meaningful dialogs in my games, even non-meaningful ones are great if done correctly. It adds depth to the game and the characters in it.

I don’t have Awakenings (and have no interest to at its price) so I cant say what was changed in the dialog system. I shouldn’t have to take everyone in the group out of camp to hear more about them or their personal quests they may have me do, if that’s what they are doing in it.

-ME2 tanked in the dialog completely. You had to hunt down certain markers to get the only dialog about what “x” thinks about the planet your on. Your companions don’t interact with each other at all beyond the scripted crap. In only in a very few cases do they even talk to each other and the best one of those requires you to use an import game to see. In all of the loyalty missions, hell for that matter all the missions everyone said the exact lines with rare differences depending on who you took. The little differences of those lines were not even that significant to notice in most cases. I don’t want to see Dragon Age become like Mass Effect 2 is. Suffered through ME2 4 times and have completely lost interest in it, even wit this new download on the way.

  Valente a well made argument does not make it true (look at politics), the post he was responding to has a attitude of "your screwed, developers don't give a damn so accept half finished, crappy, dumbed down games"  well while there is some truth in that some don't care the whole give up attitude is pathetic catering to causal gamers certainly boosts sales but the hardcore market is still important. Hard core gamers are getting fed up and buying less.  Furthermore not all game are going casual hideo kojima, tetsua nomura, and the guys who made heavy rain are examples of big to relatively big developers still making hardcore games.  I have not played a lot of bioware games but it seems they would be illsuited to being casuliazed, whether or not they will try i really dont know.  So I certainly don't believe that we just need to accept games being dumbed down.
------------------------


to GardenSnake I completely agree with your comments regarding the camp.

Very true. Believe it or not I am on your side on this one. I was more arguing against the use of bad logic and "straw men"(which it was) to make oneself appear superior. Was it pointless to do so? yes. But then again, there's not much point to to any of this

[Gecon]

You have to be freaking kidding me.

Casualization means, you can start a game, play a bit, then save and stop playing.

While hardcore is where you need other players to play the game or its pointless.

You cant be more casual than a singleplayer game where exactly that is a standard feature.

Its impossible to be more casual than DA1 already is.

[Darth Drago]

Vicious wrote...
So lastly, what the hell is 'casualized?' Someone mind explaining that to me? Or is it a catch-all for stuff all you 'hardcore' folks don't like, meaning it completely varies from person to person and is ultimately meaningless?

-Casualize: To become, or cause to become, casual; to become regarded casually.

From the Wiki site: (yea I know its everyone’s favorite site)
*edited to get rid of trivial junk * I also highlighted the importan facts.

Casual Game
“A casual game is a video game or online game targeted at or used by a mass audience of casual gamers. Casual games can have any type of gameplay, and fit in any genre. They are typically distinguished by their simple rules and lack of commitment required in contrast to more complex hardcore games. They require no long-term time commitment or special skills to play, and there are comparatively low production and distribution costs for the producer.

Most casual games have similar basic features:
-Extremely simple gameplay, like a puzzle game that can be played entirely using a one-button mouse or cell phone keypad
-Allowing gameplay in short bursts, during work breaks or, in the case of portable and cell phone games, on public transportation.
-The ability to quickly reach a final stage, or continuous play with no need to save the game
-Some variant on a "try before you buy" business model or an advertising-based model

The word "casual" indicates that the games are produced for the casual consumer, who comes across the game and can get into gameplay almost immediately.


Casual gamer
"Casual gamer" is a loosely defined term used to describe a type of video game player whose time or interest in playing games is limited compared with a hardcore gamer. Casual gamers can conceivably consist of any people who show more than a passing interest in video games, therefore it is difficult to categorize them as a group. For this reason, games which attempt to appeal to the casual player tend to strive for simple rules and ease of game play, the goal being to present a pick-up-and-play experience that people from any age group or skill level could enjoy.”


Lets see Mass Effect 2 fits that description perfectly. Wonder how Dragon Age 2 will be considered….

Modifié par Darth Drago, 27 mai 2010 - 05:28 .

[Dargon Grey]

It's bad enough I heard '30 seconds to Mars'

Isn't that casual enough???

Personally, I don't care for EA's business model but that's me. They want each game to be defeated by 85% of their players. What better way to make to achieve that stat than to make the game easier not just in difficulty but also in ease of use and a relatively stress free menu and dialogue systems. Basically don't bore the player to death. It, in turn, dilutes the experience for a hardcore gamer but satisfies the causual gamer which I think is the core of most game sales excluding MMOs.

Modifié par Dargon Grey, 27 mai 2010 - 05:44 .

[Lux]

Vicious wrote...

So lastly, what the hell is 'casualized?' Someone mind explaining that to me? Or is it a catch-all for stuff all you 'hardcore' folks don't like, meaning it completely varies from person to person and is ultimately meaningless?

I would say that 'oversimplify' defines some fears of what may become of version 2. Taking into consideration some trends in the gaming industry, that could translate in less dialogue, less decisions to make, less number of skills, less equipment, less play time, fewer explorable areas, more action, more eye-candy, more linear gameplay.

I wouldn't mind seeing changes to the game in a way of being more appealing to play but still difficult to master. I would however hate to see a version in the likes of  a 'popcorn' movie, which I don't believe it could happen.

[Leon Evelake]

Darth Drago wrote...

Vicious wrote...
So lastly, what the hell is 'casualized?' Someone mind explaining that to me? Or is it a catch-all for stuff all you 'hardcore' folks don't like, meaning it completely varies from person to person and is ultimately meaningless?

-Casualize: To become, or cause to become, casual; to become regarded casually.

From the Wiki site: (yea I know its everyone’s favorite site)
*edited to get rid of trivial junk * I also highlighted the importan facts.

Casual Game
“A casual game is a video game or online game targeted at or used by a mass audience of casual gamers. Casual games can have any type of gameplay, and fit in any genre. They are typically distinguished by their simple rules and lack of commitment required in contrast to more complex hardcore games. They require no long-term time commitment or special skills to play, and there are comparatively low production and distribution costs for the producer.

Most casual games have similar basic features:
-Extremely simple gameplay, like a puzzle game that can be played entirely using a one-button mouse or cell phone keypad
-Allowing gameplay in short bursts, during work breaks or, in the case of portable and cell phone games, on public transportation.
-The ability to quickly reach a final stage, or continuous play with no need to save the game
-Some variant on a "try before you buy" business model or an advertising-based model

The word "casual" indicates that the games are produced for the casual consumer, who comes across the game and can get into gameplay almost immediately.


Casual gamer
"Casual gamer" is a loosely defined term used to describe a type of video game player whose time or interest in playing games is limited compared with a hardcore gamer. Casual gamers can conceivably consist of any people who show more than a passing interest in video games, therefore it is difficult to categorize them as a group. For this reason, games which attempt to appeal to the casual player tend to strive for simple rules and ease of game play, the goal being to present a pick-up-and-play experience that people from any age group or skill level could enjoy.”


Lets see Mass Effect 2 fits that description perfectly. Wonder how Dragon Age 2 will be considered….

well you saved me some time

[Lux]

IMO BioWare had the right approach for ME2.



DA is a different kind of game which would get maimed beyond recognition if they'd try to do the same thing.

[Vicious]

You folks are putting DAO on a pedestal that DA2 will never be able to approach. DAO was an EXTREMELY simple game. It is EXTREMELY casual. Hell when it first came out there were new players exclaiming, "It's just like World of Warcraft!" who clearly never played any of the old Bioware RPGs.





You *don't* need commitment or special skills to play DAO. Thus it itself becomes a casual game by that description. Any gamer can pick DAO up and play it.



And if you believe otherwise, well I imagine some of you would, it's the typical elitist attitude of some forumites. But DA2 will dissappoint you, I can guarantee that now.