559 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Simple compared to what? Casual compared to what? I don't know what game wouldn't be casual if the standard is "any gamer can pick it up and play it."

[Vicious]

AlanC9 wrote...

Simple compared to what? Casual compared to what? I don't know what game wouldn't be casual if the standard is "any gamer can pick it up and play it."

Exactly. This thread is pretty fail.

[Leon Evelake]

Vicious wrote...

You folks are putting DAO on a pedestal that DA2 will never be able to approach. DAO was an EXTREMELY simple game. It is EXTREMELY casual. Hell when it first came out there were new players exclaiming, "It's just like World of Warcraft!" who clearly never played any of the old Bioware RPGs.


You *don't* need commitment or special skills to play DAO. Thus it itself becomes a casual game by that description. Any gamer can pick DAO up and play it.

And if you believe otherwise, well I imagine some of you would, it's the typical elitist attitude of some forumites. But DA2 will dissappoint you, I can guarantee that now.

I find it amusing that any time I go on any thread there seems to be one person who is there just to dissent for the heck of it and talk down to everybody.

What was Dragon age simple in comparison to? Mario? Guitar hero? Heavy rain? Metal gear solid?
It was certainly more indepth than the majority of games coming out.


The point of the thread is "Let's hope Dragon Age 2 doesn't get casualized" meaning they are worried it will be dumbed down from where and what it is.  Even if it were casual, and it is not, it could be taken further in that direction. I don't see how that is putting it on a pedestal  it is not unreasonable to hope that sequel is as good or better than its predecessor.  

[Vicious]

I am not 'disagreeing for the heck of it' and you are quite rude for insinuating such.



This thread is very transparent. The maker of this thread is one of those gentlemen who thinks that Mass Effect 2 was dumbed down and is trying to appeal to those who thought the same way by introducing the fear that DAO could get the same treatment. A treatment that it will not get, ever, because they are two very seperate games.



And the heart of it, of course, is this thread is a whimpering cry against the 'evil EA overlords.'



http://www.destructo...vil-66852.phtml

[Leon Evelake]

Vicious wrote...

I am not 'disagreeing for the heck of it' and you are quite rude for insinuating such.

This thread is very transparent. The maker of this thread is one of those gentlemen who thinks that Mass Effect 2 was dumbed down and is trying to appeal to those who thought the same way by introducing the fear that DAO could get the same treatment. A treatment that it will not get, ever, because they are two very seperate games.

And the heart of it, of course, is this thread is a whimpering cry against the 'evil EA overlords.'

http://www.destructo...vil-66852.phtml

I'm rude? Your the one who called everyone who would disagree with you elitist. And the aggressive attitude of your posts isnt not exactly helping your point . I haven't played mass effect 2 and I know nothing about ea, but the possibility of any game being dumbed down or diluted is a very real concern, the fact that they said that they planed on using a new conversation system because the first one was not cost effective alone has given many people reason worry.   I hope it wont happen and said several times that I don't think that dragon age is a type of game that would really work for that.  But I still worry, to many games I loved have been ruined by this annoying trend.

Modifié par Leon Evelake, 27 mai 2010 - 09:16 .

[Darth Drago]

Vicious wrote...

You folks are putting DAO on a pedestal that DA2 will never be able to approach. DAO was an EXTREMELY simple game. It is EXTREMELY casual. Hell when it first came out there were new players exclaiming, "It's just like World of Warcraft!" who clearly never played any of the old Bioware RPGs.

You *don't* need commitment or special skills to play DAO. Thus it itself becomes a casual game by that description. Any gamer can pick DAO up and play it.

And if you believe otherwise, well I imagine some of you would, it's the typical elitist attitude of some forumites. But DA2 will dissappoint you, I can guarantee that now.

-What high pedestal are you seeing? Most of the concerns here are aimed at keeping the standard set by DAO as they are and not dumbing the sequel down.

-I wonder why players of World of Warcraf would say that? Maybe because in its basic form DAO is very similar to that game.

-Can you beat DAO in a few days? Can you even do any of the main quests in under an hour? Don’t you have to plan ahead on what skills, spells and talents you and you companions need? DAO is not a casual game. It may be easy to pick up and play for some but it is far from something you can play for an hour or so a day and expect to finish it anytime soon.

-After what happened with all the drastic changes that were done to Mass Effect 2, I doubt anyone will blindly pick up DAO2 without first looking what was changed in it and what the fans of the game think.

Vicious wrote...

This thread is very transparent. The maker of this thread is one of those gentlemen who thinks that Mass Effect 2 was dumbed down and is trying to appeal to those who thought the same way by introducing the fear that DAO could get the same treatment. A treatment that it will not get, ever, because they are two very seperate games.

And the heart of it, of course, is this thread is a whimpering cry against the 'evil EA overlords.'

-Mass Effect 2 was dumbed down in every conceivable way to cater to the shooter fan audience over anyone else. Why wouldn’t we consider the possibility that DAO2 will get the same treatment or “fixed” in a similar way to cater more to the masses than the core audience of DAO?

-EA has a bad reputation of destroying game franchises that don’t meet their standards. With EA involved you should be worried about the future of all games made by BioWare.

[Darth Drago]

Merkar wrote...

IMO BioWare had the right approach for ME2.

DA is a different kind of game which would get maimed beyond recognition if they'd try to do the same thing.

You cant see them doing? (just a few examples with references to Mass Effect 1 & 2 and how it could be implemented easily into DAO2)

1. Removing the inventory completely. Mass Effect 1 had a large variety of inventory (loot) and stores that had stuff to buy but most of both were either vendor trash or stuff that you didn’t need since you found better by adventuring. Instead of fixing that, in Mass Effect 2 the inventory (loot) was removed and the stores only sell trivial junk like pets or models to decorate you room and upgrades for you or your ship. What about money? Well you get most of it from stealing it by hacking data pads or opening safes. Yep, the hero is nothing more than a common crook. The rest of it comes from your reward from finishing your mission.

Doesn’t Dragon Age have a large inventory of stuff to collect and stores that don’t sell much that actually is an improvement over what you get from a quest? Do we really need all that random loot and all those sets of armor?

2. Streamlining the talents/spells. ME1 had a large variety of talents to level up to make each character more unique you got a certain amount of points each level to use on those talents and you could use all of them or save them. In ME2 the talents are now called powers (wonder what it will be called in ME3) and you don’t get nearly as many as you had before. You still get points each time you level up but now you have to spend more point to get higher levels in the power. Its on a 1-2-3-4 system, meaning to unlock a third level power requires you to spend 1 point then 2 points and finally 3 points. You usually will end up with spare unusable points by the time you finish the game because most of your powers are at level 3 and your stuck with 2 points left.

All your companions only have a total of 4 to choose from and one of those you cant access unless you do their loyalty mission. They also come with a special power that used to be either a loot item or power from ME1. Imagine Wynne having a rune of spell resistance that replaces getting any actual runes and its bonus is based on the level of the power. The other companions would have similar powers.

Doesn’t each class in DAO have a long list of spells/talents and skills to choose from? Surely streamlining most of them out of the game would make the game easier for gamers to play the game, right?

3. The hero is a master of everything. Remember all those skills you can choose from? Gone. You don’t need them since you’re a master of them all. No need to bring someone who can pick locks, or make potions or traps since you can do that. That’s what happened in ME2. The hero of the game is a master at hacking and safecracking.

Why do we need a rogue to pick locks or someone to make/set traps when the hero of the game can do all that and more? No need to think about who to bring in your group since you really don’t need anyone to fill a specialist spot.

4. No need for healing or lyrium potions. Now all you will have to do is duck out of combat for a short time and you’ll magically replenish both health and stamina/mana. You also wont be able to heal you companions during battle but can resurrect them once their dead. Another change made in ME2.

What could possible go wrong with this idea? Oh, maybe its because it will require the developers to redo the combat system of the game resulting in a game that is nothing better than a Dynasty Warriors game.

5. classes retrofitted. In ME1 each of your selectable classes gave each one a unique feel to them. A soldier (warrior) could use all the weapons and armor An Adept (mage) had all the biotic powers but was limited to a pistol and light armor. A engineer (rogue) had al the tech skills but was limited to light armor and a pistol. In ME2 everyone wears the same armor, your Adept and the Engineer get to use SMG’s along with the pistol but at a certain moment in the game can choose to suddenly be trained in the sniper rifle, assault rifle or a shotgun. wouldn’t it feel a bit out of place for a rogue or mage to suddenly be able to use a 2-handed weapon?

Why play a warrior when you can play a mage or rogue that gets a lot of the warrior benefits? Lets generalize each class into a middle of the road mish mash of a concoction of its former class. No need to play each class differently since now they all can be played the same basic way. Don’t worry about your companions either since they will all be average at best and not bring any unique talents to a battle.


-Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age Origins are very similar games. The only real difference is one is a sci-fi game the other a fantasy one. All of those little changes they did for ME2 I can see them easily pulling to put into DAO2.

In my opinion ME2 was maimed beyond recognition. Mass Effect 1 and 2 were made by the same people and company (BioWare of course) to bad they don’t play or even look like they were. I expect better for Dragon Age 2.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 28 mai 2010 - 12:11 .

[ZMJ10]

Darth Drago wrote...

Merkar wrote...

IMO BioWare had the right approach for ME2.

DA is a different kind of game which would get maimed beyond recognition if they'd try to do the same thing.

You cant see them doing? (just a few examples with references to Mass Effect 1 & 2 and how it could be implemented easily into DAO2)

1. Removing the inventory completely. Mass Effect 1 had a large variety of inventory (loot) and stores that had stuff to buy but most of both were either vendor trash or stuff that you didn’t need since you found better by adventuring. Instead of fixing that, in Mass Effect 2 the inventory (loot) was removed and the stores only sell trivial junk like pets or models to decorate you room and upgrades for you or your ship. What about money? Well you get most of it from stealing it by hacking data pads or opening safes. Yep, the hero is nothing more than a common crook. The rest of it comes from your reward from finishing your mission.

Doesn’t Dragon Age have a large inventory of stuff to collect and stores that don’t sell much that actually is an improvement over what you get from a quest? Do we really need all that random loot and all those sets of armor?

2. Streamlining the talents/spells. ME1 had a large variety of talents to level up to make each character more unique you got a certain amount of points each level to use on those talents and you could use all of them or save them. In ME2 the talents are now called powers (wonder what it will be called in ME3) and you don’t get nearly as many as you had before. You still get points each time you level up but now you have to spend more point to get higher levels in the power. Its on a 1-2-3-4 system, meaning to unlock a third level power requires you to spend 1 point then 2 points and finally 3 points. You usually will end up with spare unusable points by the time you finish the game because most of your powers are at level 3 and your stuck with 2 points left.

All your companions only have a total of 4 to choose from and one of those you cant access unless you do their loyalty mission. They also come with a special power that used to be either a loot item or power from ME1. Imagine Wynne having a rune of spell resistance that replaces getting any actual runes and its bonus is based on the level of the power. The other companions would have similar powers.

Doesn’t each class in DAO have a long list of spells/talents and skills to choose from? Surely streamlining most of them out of the game would make the game easier for gamers to play the game, right?

3. The hero is a master of everything. Remember all those skills you can choose from? Gone. You don’t need them since you’re a master of them all. No need to bring someone who can pick locks, or make potions or traps since you can do that. That’s what happened in ME2. The hero of the game is a master at hacking and safecracking.

Why do we need a rogue to pick locks or someone to make/set traps when the hero of the game can do all that and more? No need to think about who to bring in your group since you really don’t need anyone to fill a specialist spot.

4. No need for healing or lyrium potions. Now all you will have to do is duck out of combat for a short time and you’ll magically replenish both health and stamina/mana. You also wont be able to heal you companions during battle but can resurrect them once their dead. Another change made in ME2.

What could possible go wrong with this idea? Oh, maybe its because it will require the developers to redo the combat system of the game resulting in a game that is nothing better than a Dynasty Warriors game.

5. classes retrofitted. In ME1 each of your selectable classes gave each one a unique feel to them. A soldier (warrior) could use all the weapons and armor An Adept (mage) had all the biotic powers but was limited to a pistol and light armor. A engineer (rogue) had al the tech skills but was limited to light armor and a pistol. In ME2 everyone wears the same armor, your Adept and the Engineer get to use SMG’s along with the pistol but at a certain moment in the game can choose to suddenly be trained in the sniper rifle, assault rifle or a shotgun. wouldn’t it feel a bit out of place for a rogue or mage to suddenly be able to use a 2-handed weapon?

Why play a warrior when you can play a mage or rogue that gets a lot of the warrior benefits? Lets generalize each class into a middle of the road mish mash of a concoction of its former class. No need to play each class differently since now they all can be played the same basic way. Don’t worry about your companions either since they will all be average at best and not bring any unique talents to a battle.


-Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age Origins are very similar games. The only real difference is one is a sci-fi game the other a fantasy one. All of those little changes they did for ME2 I can see them easily pulling to put into DAO2.

In my opinion ME2 was maimed beyond recognition. Mass Effect 1 and 2 were made by the same people and company (BioWare of course) to bad they don’t play or even look like they were. I expect better for Dragon Age 2.

    U just hit the head on the nail.

[GardenSnake]

SDNcN wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...

I don’t want to see Dragon Age become like Mass Effect 2 is. Suffered through ME2 4 times and have completely lost interest in it, even wit this new download on the way.

Wow, how many times do you replay games you actually enjoy?

Dude, I swear to G-d, I've played the kotor series so many times, I've lost count. I've played DA 3 times through and have a current playthrough that I'm chipping away at, played Awakening once and have a second playthrough I'm working on (probably won't finish it) and I've played Jade Empire like 9 times. JE was just plain awesome and as for KOTOR, the fact that it's star wars definately contributes to it, but I love that game to death either way. DA is also amazing.

[GardenSnake]

Dargon Grey wrote...

It's bad enough I heard '30 seconds to Mars'

Isn't that casual enough???

Personally, I don't care for EA's business model but that's me. They want each game to be defeated by 85% of their players. What better way to make to achieve that stat than to make the game easier not just in difficulty but also in ease of use and a relatively stress free menu and dialogue systems. Basically don't bore the player to death. It, in turn, dilutes the experience for a hardcore gamer but satisfies the causual gamer which I think is the core of most game sales excluding MMOs.

Because there's mainstream music in it, means its casual? BTW, I'm a 30 seconds to Mars hater and I LOVED This Is War at the end of the game during the credits. I thought it felt appropriate for some reason and truly epic.

[Hollingdale]

Wow I guess Vicious must've hit a nerve hehe

[Sylixe]

How could they make the game any more casual friendly than it already is? A game of Pong requires more skill to win than this game currently does. If anything they need to make the game significantly MORE difficult or at least make the Hard and Nightmare settings actually require you to think.



The sad fact of it is that the casuals that destroy immersive games and their difficulty spend the most. Therefore they will never bite the hand that feeds them so to speak.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Sylixe wrote...

How could they make the game any more casual friendly than it already is? A game of Pong requires more skill to win than this game currently does. If anything they need to make the game significantly MORE difficult or at least make the Hard and Nightmare settings actually require you to think.

The sad fact of it is that the casuals that destroy immersive games and their difficulty spend the most. Therefore they will never bite the hand that feeds them so to speak.

I don't believe this is true, at least not from personal experience. My two Nightmare playthroughs have been as a mage (specced into Storm of the Century) and a rogue (archery/stealthy build), and I still have found several fights to be difficult despite using a fairly heavily min-maxed build in both cases. The battle at the end of one of the companions' personal quest, for example, because you have an enemy mage who doesn't go down very easily.

There is an issue however, in that most enemy characters have a definite pattern to them. Just about any enemy mage you can expect to immediately knock you down with a Fireball then cast Chain Lightning. When you know that, you can direct your characters to get far enough separated that the Fireball won't hit all of them, and then interrupt the mage's Chain Lightning cast. Sure, desire demons love Winter's Grasp and Cone of Cold, and there was that one demon who threw a Blizzard at you,  but any other "primal" mage will fall into that pattern. Rather than having a mage pattern for each spell school, I'd have liked to see a "primal" mage that tried to hit you with a Mass Paralysis and then use the time to set up Inferno, Tempest, or Blizzard, or maybe even Storm of the Century at higher difficulties. Perhaps that "creation" mage could drop a Glyph of Repulsion in a bottleneck then set up a Paralysis Explosion while covered by archers who could take advantage of the situation. And this isn't just exclusive to mages, those rogues that start off combat stealthed could easily open with a Scattershot or Arrow of Slaying out of nowhere rather than a backstab in a dual-weapon build.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd have liked to see different tactics used at higher difficulty levels, rather than the same tactics used by more resilient enemies.

More on topic: I haven't played either Mass Effect game, so I can't speak for what happened there, but I would like to see a continued focus on character development and character specialization within the party. Locked doors and chests in the origin stories that were completely inaccessable if I didn't play a rogue were a bad idea, rogue talents and extra skills already make rogues attractive enough. Locked doors and chests in areas where I have a rogue available to me if I made the choice to take one with me or play one myself, however, are just fine. And I'd rather see more usable equipment in shops than do away with them.

EDIT: Well, that was one way to stop lurking.

Modifié par DragonOfWhiteThunder, 28 mai 2010 - 04:48 .

[Leon Evelake]

GardenSnake wrote...

Dargon Grey wrote...

It's bad enough I heard '30 seconds to Mars'

Isn't that casual enough???

Personally, I don't care for EA's business model but that's me. They want each game to be defeated by 85% of their players. What better way to make to achieve that stat than to make the game easier not just in difficulty but also in ease of use and a relatively stress free menu and dialogue systems. Basically don't bore the player to death. It, in turn, dilutes the experience for a hardcore gamer but satisfies the causual gamer which I think is the core of most game sales excluding MMOs.

Because there's mainstream music in it, means its casual? BTW, I'm a 30 seconds to Mars hater and I LOVED This Is War at the end of the game during the credits. I thought it felt appropriate for some reason and truly epic.

seconded

[AlanC9]

Sylixe wrote...

The sad fact of it is that the casuals that destroy immersive games and their difficulty spend the most. Therefore they will never bite the hand that feeds them so to speak.

Difficult = immersive???

[Leon Evelake]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylixe wrote...

The sad fact of it is that the casuals that destroy immersive games and their difficulty spend the most. Therefore they will never bite the hand that feeds them so to speak.

Difficult = immersive???

Yeah i dont really see how equals the other.

[Massadonious1]

Darth Drago wrote...
Why do we need a rogue to pick locks or someone to make/set traps when the hero of the game can do all that and more? No need to think about who to bring in your group since you really don’t need anyone to fill a specialist spot.

Because what ME1 had and what DA:O has now is so incredibly thought provoking. Want to pick locks? Be a rogue or bring a rogue (and specialize in it). 

My brain cells are so strained.

I didn't like Engineer type classes in ME1, and was therefore pigenholed into bringing a weak combat character in Tali pretty much everywhere I went, on the off chance that a chest or locker held Collssus armor and not my 15th Lancer X Assault Rifle.

Specialsts are old and busted. I don't mind them in more traditional fantasy RPG's, but I have no qualms if they decided to do away with it in DA2. They severely limit roleplay and squad combat potential.

[Mk001]

DAO wasnt a financial failure I dont see why they would see reason to change anything.

Everything in DAO is great they way it is.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...
Why do we need a rogue to pick locks or someone to make/set traps when the hero of the game can do all that and more? No need to think about who to bring in your group since you really don’t need anyone to fill a specialist spot.

Because what ME1 had and what DA:O has now is so incredibly thought provoking. Want to pick locks? Be a rogue or bring a rogue (and specialize in it). 

My brain cells are so strained.

I didn't like Engineer type classes in ME1, and was therefore pigenholed into bringing a weak combat character in Tali pretty much everywhere I went, on the off chance that a chest or locker held Collssus armor and not my 15th Lancer X Assault Rifle.

Specialsts are old and busted. I don't mind them in more traditional fantasy RPG's, but I have no qualms if they decided to do away with it in DA2. They severely limit roleplay and squad combat potential.

I don't see this being very much of an issue in DA, given that rogues are by no means weak combat characters. You can have device mastery without sacrificing much if any of your damage-dealing potential.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Mk001 wrote...

DAO wasnt a financial failure I dont see why they would see reason to change anything.
Everything in DAO is great they way it is.

You always have to make modifications or else you will be beat in the marketplace by a title that does things better.  Its keeping up with the competition.  This is why Awakenings is a bit different from Origins, they are testing out certain gameplay philosophies.

[Massadonious1]

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...
Why do we need a rogue to pick locks or someone to make/set traps when the hero of the game can do all that and more? No need to think about who to bring in your group since you really don’t need anyone to fill a specialist spot.

Because what ME1 had and what DA:O has now is so incredibly thought provoking. Want to pick locks? Be a rogue or bring a rogue (and specialize in it). 

My brain cells are so strained.

I didn't like Engineer type classes in ME1, and was therefore pigenholed into bringing a weak combat character in Tali pretty much everywhere I went, on the off chance that a chest or locker held Collssus armor and not my 15th Lancer X Assault Rifle.

Specialsts are old and busted. I don't mind them in more traditional fantasy RPG's, but I have no qualms if they decided to do away with it in DA2. They severely limit roleplay and squad combat potential.

I don't see this being very much of an issue in DA, given that rogues are by no means weak combat characters. You can have device mastery without sacrificing much if any of your damage-dealing potential.

True, that particular argument was directed more at the ME1 part of that sentence, but regardless, there are still roleplay considerations to think of. I didn't mind taking Leillana everywhere, as I romanced her pretty much every time, I just wish I didn't feel like I had to.

[Hollingdale]

Personally I don't understand Darth Drago's post at all.

[Spitz6860]

my worst fear would be EA becomes the next Activision, Bioware becomes the next Infinity Ward and Dragon Age&Mass Effect becomes the next Call of Duty

[Onyx Jaguar]

If EA was truly evil they wouldn't have greenlit Dragon Age: Origins. It had been in development hell for a long time and apparently true work that we ended up seeing in the final product started in 2007 and 2008. If they wanted to they would have cancelled it and forced Bioware to work on Mass Effect or a Jade Empire sequel.

[CybAnt1]

1. Removing the inventory completely. 
2. Streamlining the talents/spells. 
3. The hero is a master of everything. 
4. No need for healing or lyrium potions. 
5. classes retrofitted. 

I just want to thank you, Drago, for listing the changes that they made to Mass Effect 2. I've heard many RPG players complain about the "streamlining" that happened to the game. But nobody ever discussed concretely what the changes were. (OK. Maybe there is more discussion of it in the forums above, but it's all over the place.) 

It bothered me that Mass Effect 1 came out console only first. Then was ported for PC by a different team, and never came to Mac (I wasn't running bootcamp at the time). I ended up not getting it.

Then Mass Effect 2 came out and I was about to get it but I heard people complaining about changes they had made to the game. Now I see what those changes were.

Well, I can't complain about what they "did" to ME because so far I've never played it; but I can say, yes, I hope they don't do similar things in "streamlining" DA2.