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Bioware must be kidding us


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#26
Peppard

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Nozybidaj wrote...

I don't understand this notion that actually having people die in a SUICIDE mission is somehow "the wrong way" to play the game.  People are very high and mighty to thow such judgements around.  If saving everyone was somehow the "right" way to play the game why did BW give us the ability to kill squad members off at all?


  There's a small distinction here that you're missing.  Bioware wanted to challenge players to save the team and crew.  If they lived no matter what choices you make, then there would be no challenge. So BW didn't give us the ability to kill the team, so much as they gave us the ability to fail to save them.  

BW also gives us the ability to play the entire game without upgrading any skills, or by never changing weapons or without really using one's team mates (by letting them get incapacitated and letting them rot on the floor).....but that's not how they intended for people to go through the game.  Even if you pull those things off,  there's no "reward" for how close you come to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, no matter how stylishly you  try to do it.

Another thing, I don't think you can even really say it is "harder" to kill than not. The easiest thing is to kill some of the team, because then you skip doing some loyalty missions and the endless scanning for the upgrades.   True, killing ALL of them is harder than killing some, but so is saving everyone compared to killing some.   As one poster calculated, a minamlist shep would more or less end up with half the team dead before the long walk, without thinking too hard.   Legion, Kasumi, Zaeed and Grunt would be skipped.   Thane, Jack and Tali die before landing (no upgrades).  Jacob's the only tech guy left, and he dies b/c he's wrong for the job.  That leaves Mordin, Samara, Garrus and Miranda.    I'm not sure how to compare the difficulty of killing specific characters  (like say, all LI's or all humans) versus saving all, but as I said above, failing with style is still failing.
 

#27
Aradace

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Peppard wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

I don't understand this notion that actually having people die in a SUICIDE mission is somehow "the wrong way" to play the game.  People are very high and mighty to thow such judgements around.  If saving everyone was somehow the "right" way to play the game why did BW give us the ability to kill squad members off at all?


  There's a small distinction here that you're missing.  Bioware wanted to challenge players to save the team and crew.  If they lived no matter what choices you make, then there would be no challenge. So BW didn't give us the ability to kill the team, so much as they gave us the ability to fail to save them.  

BW also gives us the ability to play the entire game without upgrading any skills, or by never changing weapons or without really using one's team mates (by letting them get incapacitated and letting them rot on the floor).....but that's not how they intended for people to go through the game.  Even if you pull those things off,  there's no "reward" for how close you come to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, no matter how stylishly you  try to do it.

Another thing, I don't think you can even really say it is "harder" to kill than not. The easiest thing is to kill some of the team, because then you skip doing some loyalty missions and the endless scanning for the upgrades.   True, killing ALL of them is harder than killing some, but so is saving everyone compared to killing some.   As one poster calculated, a minamlist shep would more or less end up with half the team dead before the long walk, without thinking too hard.   Legion, Kasumi, Zaeed and Grunt would be skipped.   Thane, Jack and Tali die before landing (no upgrades).  Jacob's the only tech guy left, and he dies b/c he's wrong for the job.  That leaves Mordin, Samara, Garrus and Miranda.    I'm not sure how to compare the difficulty of killing specific characters  (like say, all LI's or all humans) versus saving all, but as I said above, failing with style is still failing.
 


Actually, unless you're a complete dunce, it's much more "challenging" to control WHO and HOW MANY of your squad you kill off than it is to actually save them.  I actually have 3 different characters running and each has a "bloodbath" run where I deliberately kill off everyone but Kasumi and Zaeed and it actually takes more thought and "planning" to do that than it does to merely do all the loyalty missions and pick the right people for the job(s) during the mission.

#28
GifMike

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Jorran Khaar wrote...

GifMike wrote...

Pepper4 wrote...

Do you expect Bioware to create a brand new fully voiced character only for the 2 people who killed Shepard?

lol, I'd settle for some mish that allows me to travel back in time to save myself, but start an alternate dimension.


So... you die in the suicide mission.... and you travel back in time to prevent your own death....

That... that's trippy, man... Posted Image


I guess I forgot to mention that earlier you travel forward in time, find yourself dead, tavel back and save yourself, go back to forward, find yourself back and realize there's one too many of you and you can take the night off.

And THAT ladies and gentlemen is how you tie up a loose end.

Last inane post (today)  I swear.

#29
Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien

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It is actually easy to kill anyone off. Give me anywhere between 2-11 squadmates you want to survive and I'll be able to write up a playthrough of the suicide mission where the others die.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 13 mai 2010 - 06:48 .


#30
Aradace

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Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

It is actually easy to kill anyone off. Give me anywhere between 2-11 squadmates you want to survive and I'll be able to write up a playthrough of the suicide mission where the others die.


Yes, it's "easy" but the point is that it's easier to have everyone survive.  I guess "challenging" was a poor word...I suppose I should have said it requires more "effort" to get everyone killed than it does to have everyone live lol

#31
Nivenus

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SoulsRipper wrote...

So, I discovered that Shepard can die in the suicide mission and, if that happens (if you don't do the loyality missions, I guess) that saved geme won't be imported in ME3... Logical, right? So I have one question: why Shepard have to die at the beginning of ME2 only to, how can I say?, come back BUT, at the end of the game, he( you) must survive. I really don't understand. Maybe is due to the comics, exsisting only in Enghish-speacking States. Well I just don't know that is a very stange think of ME2... If you are interested i have other conideration to do... Maybe tomorrow.... 


Cerberus lost the station where they rebuilt you and can't just throw their money around left and right. It's the same reason why they can't just resurrect you at any one point in the story.

Beyond even that, your body isn't retrievable this time around.

#32
Fiery Phoenix

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Aradace wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

It is actually easy to kill anyone off. Give me anywhere between 2-11 squadmates you want to survive and I'll be able to write up a playthrough of the suicide mission where the others die.


Yes, it's "easy" but the point is that it's easier to have everyone survive.  I guess "challenging" was a poor word...I suppose I should have said it requires more "effort" to get everyone killed than it does to have everyone live lol

Surprisingly enough, the majority of my friends lost at least one squad members their first time through. I did not, however.

Just saying. Don't take it as a direct counter-argument. :D
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 13 mai 2010 - 07:11 .


#33
Fiery Phoenix

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Double post! 
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 13 mai 2010 - 07:09 .


#34
GothamLord

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Nivenus wrote...

Beyond even that, your body isn't retrievable this time around.


Cerberus has your DNA from the Lazarus Project.   Just grow a clone in Grunt's tank.  Posted Image

#35
Nivenus

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GothamLord wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Beyond even that, your body isn't retrievable this time around.


Cerberus has your DNA from the Lazarus Project.   Just grow a clone in Grunt's tank.  Posted Image


Wouldn't work. A clone would be a different person.

#36
Ecael

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Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

It is actually easy to kill anyone off. Give me anywhere between 2-11 squadmates you want to survive and I'll be able to write up a playthrough of the suicide mission where the others die.

It's not so much about the ease of killing specific people, but the ease of having Shepard survive.

If you do all the missions, then getting Shepard to die requires a good amount of planning (=P). On the other hand, getting Shepard to accidentally die after completing all the missions is very rare.

#37
Fiery Phoenix

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GothamLord wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Beyond even that, your body isn't retrievable this time around.


Cerberus has your DNA from the Lazarus Project.   Just grow a clone in Grunt's tank.  Posted Image

Not at all.

#38
Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien

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Aradace wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

It is actually easy to kill anyone off. Give me anywhere between 2-11 squadmates you want to survive and I'll be able to write up a playthrough of the suicide mission where the others die.


Yes, it's "easy" but the point is that it's easier to have everyone survive.  I guess "challenging" was a poor word...I suppose I should have said it requires more "effort" to get everyone killed than it does to have everyone live lol


If we're talking everyone killed rather than everyone out alive, yeah, if we're talking of getting a whole bunch killed but shep still surviving compared to everyone out alive. It is easier to do the former.

Easiest route through the game having completed it once already would be to not bother with loyalty missions. You could also not bother with any scanning and still already have the resources needed for the ship upgrades.

You could then end up with a final mission status of this
Posted Image
No one loyal. All of those survived on door defence, I probably could've got Jacob out alive if I had left him there instead of Miranda (she was the only one to die on door defence in that playthrough).

Now you could say that the above proves how hard it would be to get shep killed. Yeah with the ship upgrades done and picking the 'alleged' right people for the various jobs (which is what I did, hence all the harder people are still alive).

But easy way to kill everyone with no upgrades/loyalty.

armor - jack
shields - legion
cannon - garrus
vents - thane
escort - zaeed
diversion - grunt
biotic swarm - samara (jacob as biotic, miranda as 2nd squadmate)
final battle - jacob and miranda
door defence - kasumi, tali and mordin

Everyone dead

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 13 mai 2010 - 07:30 .


#39
Nozybidaj

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Peppard wrote...



  There's a small distinction here that you're missing. 
 


No, I rather think you are missing the distinction I was making.  Its not all about whether one way is easier than the other, its about folks trying to make a judgement that one way is the "right" way and that another is the "wrong" way, and that those who went the "wrong" way must be "bad players".

At no point in the ME series has any decision been deemed or portayed as the "wrong" one.  That's all getting folks through alive or dead in the final mission is, a decision by the player.  Whether my Shep got everyone out alive or your Shep got everyone killed, neither is the "right" way to play the game and both will ultimately allow for near identical outcomes in ME3.

#40
GothamLord

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Nivenus wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Beyond even that, your body isn't retrievable this time around.


Cerberus has your DNA from the Lazarus Project.   Just grow a clone in Grunt's tank.  Posted Image


Wouldn't work. A clone would be a different person.


Are we talking biologically? mentally? spiritually? 

Its the same DNA  therefore capable of all the same physical accomplishments.  Mentally... well Grunt was created with the tank funneling all sorts of images and information into his developing head.   I dont see it that hard to program Shepard's recorded history/life experience into a clone's developing body.  The biggest issue would be pre-military where it would most likely be harded to shape a growing psyche, most likely due to lack of recorded material.

Modifié par GothamLord, 13 mai 2010 - 07:32 .


#41
Fiery Phoenix

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Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
*snip*

armor - jack
shields - legion
cannon - garrus
vents - thane
escort - zaeed
diversion - grunt
biotic swarm - samara (jacob as biotic, miranda as 2nd squadmate)
final battle - jacob and miranda
door defence - kasumi, tali and mordin

Everyone dead

LOL! Harsh! :D

#42
kraidy1117

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Poor Miri.....

#43
Nivenus

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GothamLord wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Beyond even that, your body isn't retrievable this time around.


Cerberus has your DNA from the Lazarus Project.   Just grow a clone in Grunt's tank.  Posted Image


Wouldn't work. A clone would be a different person.


Are we talking biologically? mentally? spiritually? 

Its the same DNA  therefore capable of all the same physical accomplishments.  Mentally... well Grunt was created with the tank funneling all sorts of images and information into his developing head.   I dont see it that hard to program Shepard's recorded history/life experience into a clone's developing body.  The biggest issue would be pre-military where it would most likely be harded to shape a growing psyche, most likely due to lack of recorded material.


Where'd they get the memories? Where'd they get the data necessary to "program" Shepard. They can't just come up with those magically.

If they could just clone you, they would have done that. It would be considerably easier than bringing you back from the dead.

Even biologically a clone wouldn't be identical. DNA isn't the sole determinator of our physiology. For instance, identical twins have different fingerprints.

#44
GothamLord

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Nivenus wrote...


Where'd they get the memories? Where'd they get the data necessary to "program" Shepard. They can't just come up with those magically.

If they could just clone you, they would have done that. It would be considerably easier than bringing you back from the dead.

Even biologically a clone wouldn't be identical. DNA isn't the sole determinator of our physiology. For instance, identical twins have different fingerprints.


Of couse its space magic, its a science fiction game.  As for memories I've pretty sure in the futuristic world they live in and being the military there are records of everything that Shepard did during his 11 years with the Alliance that could be put into programing for the developing clone mindset. Most likely EDI and Ceberus have been recording everything as well since the day the Lazurus project started and Shepard stepped foot on the Normandy-2.

What I said anyways was only half serious, as a means to bring back Shepard in ME3 and still maintain your save.

Modifié par GothamLord, 13 mai 2010 - 07:40 .


#45
Daforth

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Nozybidaj wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

The death scene is basically just an easter egg. A little bonus to see what would happen if you were really, really, really bad at the suicide mission.

Exactly, and you HAVE to be REALLY REALLY poor to get that ending.


I don't understand this notion that actually having people die in a SUICIDE mission is somehow "the wrong way" to play the game.  People are very high and mighty to thow such judgements around.  If saving everyone was somehow the "right" way to play the game why did BW give us the ability to kill squad members off at all?

As for being "bad" because you got folks killed, it is actually harder to kill folks (especially if you are looking to kill specific folks) than it is to just ez-mode through and save everyone.

Directed deaths but successful suicide mission needs planing and thinking, yes. But having the whole grp die including Shepard without direct intention is an indication that the player did bad decisions and recklessly went through the game ignoring all the hints, going to the final mission badly unprepared. That is a bad play.
The "right" play is when the mission is successfully carried out (i.e. Shepard survived and "LiveToFightAgain" as in the savegame the plot status indicates), it does not matter who dies, who survives, so the all survive results is only just one of the "right" plays.

#46
Fiery Phoenix

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Gotham, I think you're forgetting that the number-one goal of the Lazarus Project was to bring back Shepard EXACTLY as he/she was. It's what the Illusive Man insisted; hence him rejecting Miranda's suggestion of inserting a control chip into Shepard's brain. So a clone, no matter how identical, would still be unfulfilling. Posted ImagePosted Image

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 13 mai 2010 - 07:44 .


#47
GothamLord

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FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Gotham, I think you're forgetting that the number-one goal of the Lazarus Project was to bring back Shepard EXACTLY as he/she was. It's what the Illusive Man insisted; hence him rejecting Miranda's suggestion of inserting a control chip into Shepard's brain. So a clone, no matter how identical, would still be unfulfilling. Posted ImagePosted Image


I think people are forgetting I put a  Posted Image   at the end of my original post.  It was a half serious/half joking comment from people talking about Shepard dying and still importing a save into ME3. 

#48
Fiery Phoenix

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GothamLord wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Gotham, I think you're forgetting that the number-one goal of the Lazarus Project was to bring back Shepard EXACTLY as he/she was. It's what the Illusive Man insisted; hence him rejecting Miranda's suggestion of inserting a control chip into Shepard's brain. So a clone, no matter how identical, would still be unfulfilling. Posted ImagePosted Image


I think people are forgetting I put a  Posted Image   at the end of my original post.  It was a half serious/half joking comment from people talking about Shepard dying and still importing a save into ME3. 

Of course I realize that, lol. But your argument with Nivenus made it look "real". ;)

#49
Gavinthelocust

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Soloman Gunn replaces you in ME3 pretending to be Shepard.

How's that for a twist?

#50
Panda Warlock

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I don't know is Shepards body is unobtainable. There is a lot of coffins(?) at the ending scene if you get everyone killed. Assuming they contain bodies (why else would they be there?) it means they got there somhow... I think they could fall on Normandy through a hole. Plot hole that is.