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Bioware must be kidding us


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#51
GothamLord

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FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Gotham, I think you're forgetting that the number-one goal of the Lazarus Project was to bring back Shepard EXACTLY as he/she was. It's what the Illusive Man insisted; hence him rejecting Miranda's suggestion of inserting a control chip into Shepard's brain. So a clone, no matter how identical, would still be unfulfilling. Posted ImagePosted Image


I think people are forgetting I put a  Posted Image   at the end of my original post.  It was a half serious/half joking comment from people talking about Shepard dying and still importing a save into ME3. 

Of course I realize that, lol. But your argument with Nivenus made it look "real". ;)


Just going with the half serious part as there is a way for them storywise to build some kind of nonsense backing for making it possible.  Doesnt mean to say I endorsed it or agreed wth it.   Personally I hate the whole plot device of dying and the Laz Project, but Bioware didnt ask my option. I honestly think it could have been crafted differently.  Its pretty much a meaningless point and forgotten anyways after the first mission or two. Unless being a cybernetic zombie has some bearing in ME3 of course..

#52
Nivenus

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Gavinthelocust wrote...

Soloman Gunn replaces you in ME3 pretending to be Shepard.
How's that for a twist?


Hmmm... I kind of approve actually, though I assumed Solomon Gunn was an invented alias.

Panda Warlock wrote...

I don't know is Shepards body is unobtainable. There is a lot of coffins(?) at the ending scene if you get everyone killed. Assuming they contain bodies (why else would they be there?) it means they got there somhow... I think they could fall on Normandy through a hole. Plot hole that is.


IIRC, Shepard dies while making the crazy jump (I've never gotten Shepard killed so I don't know for sure). Body's pretty unrecoverable at that point.

Furthermore, one doesn't need a body to have a coffin. Sometimes people just use a coffin as a symbol, even if there's no body to bury.

#53
GothamLord

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Panda Warlock wrote...

I don't know is Shepards body is unobtainable. There is a lot of coffins(?) at the ending scene if you get everyone killed. Assuming they contain bodies (why else would they be there?) it means they got there somhow... I think they could fall on Normandy through a hole. Plot hole that is.


They are there for symbology pure and simple.    If you had squad mates die in the base and then blew it up, there wouldnt be any bodies to go back for. 

#54
Fiery Phoenix

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Panda Warlock wrote...

I don't know is Shepards body is unobtainable. There is a lot of coffins(?) at the ending scene if you get everyone killed. Assuming they contain bodies (why else would they be there?) it means they got there somhow... I think they could fall on Normandy through a hole. Plot hole that is.

Let's just put this way: Even if the body was in fact recoverable (which is highly unlikely), there is still a chance of the new LP not ending successfully (or in time before the galaxy is turned into a meal for the Reapers).

#55
Nivenus

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FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Panda Warlock wrote...

I don't know is Shepards body is unobtainable. There is a lot of coffins(?) at the ending scene if you get everyone killed. Assuming they contain bodies (why else would they be there?) it means they got there somhow... I think they could fall on Normandy through a hole. Plot hole that is.

Let's just put this way: Even if the body was in fact recoverable (which is highly unlikely), there is still a chance of the new LP not ending successfully (or in time before the galaxy is turned into a meal for the Reapers).


Good point. I didn't even think of that. It took 2 years the first time round and while I'm sure part of that was just figuring out how to do it, ME3 may take place mere months after ME2. We can't be sure.

#56
Fiery Phoenix

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Nivenus wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Panda Warlock wrote...

I don't know is Shepards body is unobtainable. There is a lot of coffins(?) at the ending scene if you get everyone killed. Assuming they contain bodies (why else would they be there?) it means they got there somhow... I think they could fall on Normandy through a hole. Plot hole that is.

Let's just put this way: Even if the body was in fact recoverable (which is highly unlikely), there is still a chance of the new LP not ending successfully (or in time before the galaxy is turned into a meal for the Reapers).


Good point. I didn't even think of that. It took 2 years the first time round and while I'm sure part of that was just figuring out how to do it, ME3 may take place mere months after ME2. We can't be sure.

Yup. It's already been hinted on that there won't be a significant gap between ME2 and ME3. Probably just months, as opposed to two full years.

#57
NICKjnp

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You have to work to get that ending. The way I understand it.... even if you have a non-loyal

Grunt who is hold the line all by himself... he can can still do it.

#58
Il Divo

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Nozybidaj wrote...

No, I rather think you are missing the distinction I was making.  Its not all about whether one way is easier than the other, its about folks trying to make a judgement that one way is the "right" way and that another is the "wrong" way, and that those who went the "wrong" way must be "bad players".


Forgive me, but you are misinterpreting the distinction. Your point would have more merit if the scenario of killing a party member were done in a way where the game does not seem to be encouraging you to play in a certain manner. For example, on Virmire Shepard knows that either Ashley or Kaidan is going to die; he has the option of only saving one of them. The intention of the game is clearly to force you to choose between the two characters. Or take an example from other Bioware games (Kotor 1, Jade Empire, etc) where you are given the option to choose between your companions versus an evil ending scenario.

The suicide mission is not done in this style; the objective is to keep your companions alive to ensure that Shepard survives. If Shepard does not survive, then there is no continuity with Mass Effect 3 hence why it is considered the 'wrong' way to play. True, you can purposely kill off some party members to create a different scenario (as I have done), but this still goes against the terms of the mission.

#59
MrNose

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Siansonea II wrote...

I agree with the OP. If Shepard dies, then someone else should pick up the baton against the Reapers. Someone like Miranda or Captain Anderson. As it stands now, ME3 promises to be just as linear and pre-defined as the first two games, with very little real consequences to the main character's decisions. I don't think emails and NPC cameos are significant consequences, by the way. I'm not trying to gripe too loudly, I find both games enjoyable, but I don't find them all that customizable.


I feel like the new Dragon Age DLC is your answer on this one.  I'm sure someone will take up the slack from dead-Shep, and I'm sure they will fail.  Just like how if your character in Dragon Age dies and Alistair leads the Grey Wardens, they fail.  That's the point of Shepard, s/he's the only one that can save the galaxy.  It's not like a Kung-Fu movie where there's a bunch of heroes lined up to try and take on a bad guy one at a time.  Shepard is it. 

#60
Ecael

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Nozybidaj wrote...

No, I rather think you are missing the distinction I was making.  Its not all about whether one way is easier than the other, its about folks trying to make a judgement that one way is the "right" way and that another is the "wrong" way, and that those who went the "wrong" way must be "bad players".

At no point in the ME series has any decision been deemed or portayed as the "wrong" one.  That's all getting folks through alive or dead in the final mission is, a decision by the player.  Whether my Shep got everyone out alive or your Shep got everyone killed, neither is the "right" way to play the game and both will ultimately allow for near identical outcomes in ME3.

The "right way" is just about everything except Shepard dying, regardless of which squadmates are left.

The "wrong way" is Shepard dying.

It's deemed the wrong way because it doesn't continue to Mass Effect 3. It's essentially a Critical Mission Failure ending.

Modifié par Ecael, 13 mai 2010 - 09:27 .


#61
Peppard

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Nozybidaj wrote...

Peppard wrote...



  There's a small distinction here that you're missing. 
 


No, I rather think you are missing the distinction I was making.  Its not all about whether one way is easier than the other, its about folks trying to make a judgement that one way is the "right" way and that another is the "wrong" way, and that those who went the "wrong" way must be "bad players".

At no point in the ME series has any decision been deemed or portayed as the "wrong" one.  That's all getting folks through alive or dead in the final mission is, a decision by the player.  Whether my Shep got everyone out alive or your Shep got everyone killed, neither is the "right" way to play the game and both will ultimately allow for near identical outcomes in ME3.

 

If your point was just that "bad" or "good" as a player boils down to how well you achieve your own personal goal within the game, and how well it entertains you, that would be fair enough. After all,  it is an RPG, and making choices would be meaningless if there were always only one "right" choice.

Yet I don't agree that the  decisions you make are always equally rewarded or punished.   Many have no immediate impact,  but some do, sometimes it's just story, and sometimes its your resources for combat that are increased or decreased. (Like whether you have 5 or 6 team mates for the next fight, or whether your Shep is mourning over a coffin or is celebrating an unlikely survival).

 In one sense, as a player these may be equally desirable outcomes because you want the challenge or a darker story, but in another sense, for the character you are playing, and for how BW thought most players would react,  it is not equally desirable to lose team mates as keep them alive.  Yes, it is the last mission in the game, so having the team die there means it's mostly irrelevant for combat and the main storyline left in that game.  We'll have to see how BW uses the fate of the ME2 team  to decide something (if anything) in the next game.       I doubt there'll be an equal amount of content in ME3 for those who killed squad off as didn't, even if the difference is only missing out a few "touching" cameos.  That to me would not be an equal outcome, even if it isn't game changing or anything.  And from the POV of Shepard, even if not the player, losing the friends on your  team is probably not as good as saving them (though I could see someone debating that, b/c let's face it, there were some nasty recruits).   

Again, I  do agree with you that it's a bit unfair to lump everyone who killed off squad regardless of why  they did it under the label "bad player", but it's still a stretch to imagine that BW designed the suicide mission to challenge players to try to kill characters off.  I think they thought most people would find keeping the team alive harder than most people on the boards seem to think it turned out to be.   

Modifié par Peppard, 13 mai 2010 - 11:32 .


#62
Vegielamb

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SoulsRipper wrote...

So, I discovered that Shepard can die in the suicide mission and, if that happens (if you don't do the loyality missions, I guess) that saved geme won't be imported in ME3... Logical, right? So I have one question: why Shepard have to die at the beginning of ME2 only to, how can I say?, come back BUT, at the end of the game, he( you) must survive. I really don't understand. Maybe is due to the comics, exsisting only in Enghish-speacking States. Well I just don't know that is a very stange think of ME2... If you are interested i have other conideration to do... Maybe tomorrow.... 


Because TIM is too cheap to rez you a second time.

#63
Chuvvy

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Pepper4 wrote...

Do you expect Bioware to create a brand new fully voiced character only for the 2 people who killed Shepard?


Least he'd be an improvement over Mark Meer. HEY OH!

#64
Tooneyman

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Actually say if shepard died in the game. All they had to do at that point was recreate shepard as a clone. I saying this because even though shepard dies. Bioware doesn't want to get into the whole clone thing. This is why I think they didn't want to export the characters ending. Plus you have to have some crew alive otherwise the next games code won't work which is what I'm kind of guessing. Its not that they can't do it. Its more of the fact certain decision on import need to cross over no matter what so basically for bioware to have a good story arc. You and atleast two crew mates have to survive.

#65
smudboy

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mopotter wrote...

Texaboose wrote...

Gotta remember that this is Shepard's story. If you decide to die at the end of ME2, that's the end of Shepard's story - it's as if ME3 never existed. Don't know why you're complaining about this.


Exactly.



Just because it's Shepard's story doesn't mean Shepard has to be the protagonist in ME3.

#66
Peppard

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smudboy wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Texaboose wrote...

Gotta remember that this is Shepard's story. If you decide to die at the end of ME2, that's the end of Shepard's story - it's as if ME3 never existed. Don't know why you're complaining about this.


Exactly.



Just because it's Shepard's story doesn't mean Shepard has to be the protagonist in ME3.


Wasn't there some quote from one of the head BW honcho's like "shepard climbs the tree in act 1, loses balance in act 2, and falls from the tree in act 3 ?"  One way to  fall would be if Shepard's the antagonist, rather than the protagonist in game 3, sort of a full circle idea with Shepard being thought of similar to Saren.  I've seen lots of people throw that idea out there. Only thing is, I can't really see BW changing who the main protagonist is for the third act of the story....but we never know what they'll do.

#67
KenLyns

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Shepard's overrated. Just give Joker the Heavy Bone Weave 2/2 upgrades and voila! :devil:

Didn't Joker put the final killing shot through Sovereign at the end of ME1?  

#68
Darc_Requiem

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Gavinthelocust wrote...

Soloman Gunn replaces you in ME3 pretending to be Shepard.
How's that for a twist?



Posted Image
Hey buddy, that's my line!

#69
GothamLord

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Better image should have been



Posted Image

#70
SoulsRipper

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ReconTeam wrote...

Well, Cerberus could do another Lazarus project. A convinent and ridiculous way to move the plot ahead another two years.
Looking back. That whole part of the game/storyline seemed pointless.


That is exactly what I'm saing. The Lazarus Project, in my opinion, is the most epic fail ever (at least in some years). I agree with the decision of not to let importing saved games in ME3 if Shepard dies, but I'can't see the reason why Shepard has to die at the beginning of ME2 only for coming back after... A minute of gameplay and star working for Cerberus... Think about it, Cerberus killed Kaoku, in ME1, and, most important, if you (Shepard) are a survivor, as default, Cerberus killed all your team on Akuze, and you start working for those assains... It hasn't sense...  
 

#71
askanec

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Peppard wrote...

smudboy wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Texaboose wrote...

Gotta remember that this is Shepard's story. If you decide to die at the end of ME2, that's the end of Shepard's story - it's as if ME3 never existed. Don't know why you're complaining about this.


Exactly.



Just because it's Shepard's story doesn't mean Shepard has to be the protagonist in ME3.


Wasn't there some quote from one of the head BW honcho's like "shepard climbs the tree in act 1, loses balance in act 2, and falls from the tree in act 3 ?"  One way to  fall would be if Shepard's the antagonist, rather than the protagonist in game 3, sort of a full circle idea with Shepard being thought of similar to Saren.  I've seen lots of people throw that idea out there. Only thing is, I can't really see BW changing who the main protagonist is for the third act of the story....but we never know what they'll do.



Oh, you mean just like Metal Gear Solid 2, in which Konami basically made a new protagonist named Raiden. The fans kept hating on Raiden, who is presented as a rookie, since they thought they would be playing the same bad-ass hero Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid 1.

Well, if Bioware wants to play with fire, they are welcomed to swap out Shepard and put another protagonist under the player's control in ME3.

#72
SoulsRipper

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KenLyns wrote...

Shepard's overrated. Just give Joker the Heavy Bone Weave 2/2 upgrades and voila! :devil:

Didn't Joker put the final killing shot through Sovereign at the end of ME1?  


Indeed, that would be really great, Joker is as carismatic as Shepard, and he has humor, too. A little genetic boosting, (seems not to be a problem for Cerberus, or the Alliance) and he will be able to fight. Afer all he salved the Normandy from collectors. I've never heard of the possibily or a evil Shepard, nor that Shepard will "fall" in ME3, but it wuold be a very original idea, somethingh, I've not seen for years, I if you think about it, the defaul Shep is a renegade (Terran, survivor) so why, can't he become a evil? As default choise, Ascension is destoyed, and Cerberus get the staion, ready to control the galaxy... I don't think that BW will chose that line of events (a evil Shepard) but would be funny....Posted Image 

#73
SoulsRipper

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Hey, listen that idea: it would be fantastic if in ME3 you would have the choise of two differnt playline: one paragon an one renegade. In my mind the idea should be the choise between help Reapers destroying the galaxy, for saving yourself, or fight them to death, like in Fallout3 (before "Broken Steel"). The missions could be the same, but with tow opposite objectives, like in Deus Ex 2: I W. So it ins't nothingh that hasn't be done before, and would set a new standard in renegade/paragon choises. Until now, infact, the choises were only two different way for the same objective (destroy the Sovereign, stop the Collectors, make Saren kill himself, avoid combat, ecc...) It would be nice to have more libery of action, after all ME is an RPG.

#74
KenLyns

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SoulsRipper wrote...
Hey, listen that idea: it would be fantastic if in ME3 you would have the choise of two differnt playline: one paragon an one renegade. In my mind the idea should be the choise between help Reapers destroying the galaxy, for saving yourself, or fight them to death, like in Fallout3 (before "Broken Steel"). The missions could be the same, but with tow opposite objectives, like in Deus Ex 2: I W. So it ins't nothingh that hasn't be done before, and would set a new standard in renegade/paragon choises. Until now, infact, the choises were only two different way for the same objective (destroy the Sovereign, stop the Collectors, make Saren kill himself, avoid combat, ecc...) It would be nice to have more libery of action, after all ME is an RPG.


That would be the equivalent of usurping the kingdom throne in TES4: Oblivion. I agree with you, but realistically it creates too many variables in the storyline for sequels to be practical. 

#75
Spectre 117

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SoulsRipper wrote...

Hey, listen that idea: it would be fantastic if in ME3 you would have the choise of two differnt playline: one paragon an one renegade. In my mind the idea should be the choise between help Reapers destroying the galaxy, for saving yourself, or fight them to death, like in Fallout3 (before "Broken Steel"). The missions could be the same, but with tow opposite objectives, like in Deus Ex 2: I W. So it ins't nothingh that hasn't be done before, and would set a new standard in renegade/paragon choises. Until now, infact, the choises were only two different way for the same objective (destroy the Sovereign, stop the Collectors, make Saren kill himself, avoid combat, ecc...) It would be nice to have more libery of action, after all ME is an RPG.

I Agreed with you right up until the point that  you mention renegade shep would side with the reapers.it just wouldnt make sense after all renegade shepard isnt evil he just a jerk but in the end he's still a hero :l