157 réponses à ce sujet

[Tooneyman]

Because Demon baby could interact with dark spawn at some point and become crupted and at some point turn into an archdemon again so what this means is Me don't want to have to do what mes did again with army and all, so papa's going to get it right the first time. I'm hunting her down and papa and baby be having some words.

[Sarah1281]

Slidell505 wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...
I told Alistair I wouldn't bother and yet my Awakening ending said that the Grey Warden Commander ended up in Orlais looking for a dark haired sorceress. It wasn't my choice but there you have it.

That happened to you to? Weird. I've also gotten some that say I rommanced Lelianna when I didn't romance anyone.

I think you can avoid chasing Morrigan against your will by talking to her after doing the ritual and that puts her back at friendly.

[Vicious]

Because Demon baby could interact with dark spawn at some point and become crupted and at some point turn into an archdemon again so what this means is Me don't want to have to do what mes did again with army and all, so papa's going to get it right the first time. I'm hunting her down and papa and baby be having some words.

Except... yeah, regular rturaces turn into ghouls and then they die, or they become Grey Wardens and die anyway.



I'm simply saying that most people are expecting the child to go in a certain direction, and I am betting it's going to be much, much more subtle then RARRR DEMON BABY!

[Sarah1281]

As long as she doesn't name the kid Damien or Damienette we should be fine.

[Thor Rand Al]

I am interested to see how child's story's going to go, what direction their going to take it. I wonder if it's going to be one of those you choose the child's destiny kind of things. This child has the potential to be either good or bad. Just because it's got the soul of an Old God does not make it automatically evil.

[blademaster7]

Slidell505 wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...
I told Alistair I wouldn't bother and yet my Awakening ending said that the Grey Warden Commander ended up in Orlais looking for a dark haired sorceress. It wasn't my choice but there you have it.

That happened to you to? Weird. I've also gotten some that say I rommanced Lelianna when I didn't romance anyone.

It happens if you import a game with a romance activated. The importation system is kind of ****ed up but that's the ending you were supposed to get. So, yeah. Awakening has bugs. What else is new?

[Master Shiori]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

I am interested to see how child's story's going to go, what direction their going to take it. I wonder if it's going to be one of those you choose the child's destiny kind of things. This child has the potential to be either good or bad. Just because it's got the soul of an Old God does not make it automatically evil.

That's asuming the childs destiny isn't already predetermined by the writers.

Personaly, I'd like to see the players and their choices being the factor that determines what will ultimately happen to Morrigan and her baby.

[Carmen_Willow]

Master Shiori wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I have played the Morrigan romance.  I see Morrigan as a woman who was physically and emotionally abused  as a child who, as a result, will always choose safety (survival and power = safety for her) over love.  Loving someone is not safe -- and Morrigan simply doesn't have the emotional ability to handle that.  She has made her choice "survival has meaning; power has meaning" and will probably stick by it. Even without the god/demon baby, she probably couldn't handle the relationship.  Would she be conflicted?  Oh yes, but then you could end up in a relationship where she would push you away only to haul you back in again.   I don't think she would change, because her need to find safety is too deeply ingrained in her.  Love doesn't alway conquer all.  It was the reason I would not have followed her. I recognized that she needed something a relationship could not give her (unless she could go back to childhood and have a normal mother).

Not sure if you ever played Baldur's Gate 2 but there was a love interest there called Viconia who was exactly as you described.

The realtionship was basicaly about her and pc coming together one moment only to have Viconia push him away out of fear.

But she did eventualy come to terms with her fear of being in love and accepted the pc as her "comfort zone", as someone who would accept her and love her despite everything.

I think Morrigan would eventualy accept her relationship with the Warden and consider his unconditional love and protection as an alternative to survival and power that Flemeth had taught her.

Never played Baldur's Gate.  Wasn't into gaming then. I thought about buying it but they only support it on Windows XP, it's not supported on Windows 7.

[Carmen_Willow]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I have played the Morrigan romance.  I see Morrigan as a woman who was physically and emotionally abused  as a child who, as a result, will always choose safety (survival and power = safety for her) over love.  Loving someone is not safe -- and Morrigan simply doesn't have the emotional ability to handle that.  She has made her choice "survival has meaning; power has meaning" and will probably stick by it. Even without the god/demon baby, she probably couldn't handle the relationship.  Would she be conflicted?  Oh yes, but then you could end up in a relationship where she would push you away only to haul you back in again.   I don't think she would change, because her need to find safety is too deeply ingrained in her.  Love doesn't alway conquer all.  It was the reason I would not have followed her. I recognized that she needed something a relationship could not give her (unless she could go back to childhood and have a normal mother).

How do you know if she'll choose survival and power over love?  She's never experienced love, she's conflicted with the feeling.  If you ask her if she wants to end it she say's "Yes. No.  I do, and yet... I cannot."
Again I have to say she's never experienced these emotions before, so how do you know what she will do.  And to top it all off here she is going to have the male PC's baby who she fell in love with, that right there will be a constant reminder of the person she loved, the person she left behind. 
Oh I'm not saying if the male PC does find her that it's going to be easy, it's going to be hell and no love doesn't always conquer all but the fact that LOVE has been shown to Morrigan does give the male PC a chance even if it is going to be a stormy and rocky ride. It also gives Morrigan a realization there's more to the world then what dear old Flemeth taught her.
Morrigan is stubborn and bullheaded enough if she wants something like a relationship with male pc then she'll make it work, even though it may end up not working.
Being a woman myself I kind of feel for Morrigan and the way she was raised, my heart does go out to her.  I'm really interested in seeing where the dev's take this because it will be interesting, especially if they decide to expand more on Morrigan and the male PC relationship.  And I hope they do.

It's more of a guess than something I know.  It takes a lot for a real person to overcome the kind of damage Morrigan suffered in her formative years...of course in the DA universe, anything is possible, but there are basically three outcomes to the kind of long term abuse she suffered: 1.  Remain a victim and look for someone else to abuse you (very common); 2. Identify with your aggressor and become an abuser (less common, thankfully,) or 3. Somehow rise above it and be neither a victim nor a perpetrator (less common still, but does happen).  Given Morrigan's philosophy about survival and power, I think she identifies with her aggressor (exactly what Flemeth would have wanted, a brain mass that was configured as closely as possible to her own to inhabit).  Morrigan's stubborn streak would work against her in this regard.  She is firmly convinced that her world view is the correct one.  While she may be shaken by what she feels for the Warden, I believe she will talk herself out of those feelings for all the reasons I've mentioned.

Yeah, I know, pretty gloomy. Sorry.

[Herr Uhl]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Never played Baldur's Gate.  Wasn't into gaming then. I thought about buying it but they only support it on Windows XP, it's not supported on Windows 7.

Baldurs Gate works fine on windows 7.

[Nu-Nu]

I think she'll eventually asks for our help but if you seek her out before then she'll probaly try to kill you...

She'll automatically be thinking the worse and that you've come to kill her and the child instead of wanting to help her. And if you came after she asks you, she probaly test you to make sure your still strong enough to help her...



Whether you can have a happy ending after all that, I don't know.



And if you don't have a child, she'll probaly be too upset you didn't trust her and never be a part of your team again...

[VampireCommando]

blademaster7 wrote...

Before I proceed to answer you question I would like to ask a few questions to the women that romanced Alistair.

How many of you reloaded the landsmeet because you initially thought it would be a cool idea to have Loghain in your party? How many of you jumped back to the DR when you saw Riordan fall from the archdemon? And how many of you started a whole new playthrough as a Human Noble because you found out you can marry your favorite character?

Don't answer. I know the majority reloaded, and those who didn't, started a new game anyway. You didn't just say "meh" and then give up. That's right, you didn't let go. You kept trying and in the end you got what you wanted.

There are many reasonble excuses why would anyone follow her and refuse to give up. If you're  roleplaying a "Grey Warden to the bone" character that didn't romance her you will not let her go for the same reason Duncan didn't let Jory go. A friend of hers may feel betrayed or may worry about her safety to the point where he/she decides to break the promise.

For players that romanced her(which I assume is what you are interested in) I would use the key word hope. I was one of the few players that roleplayed a PC that tried to let her go but in the end he couldn't. I told Alistair I wouldn't bother and yet my Awakening ending said that the Grey Warden Commander ended up in Orlais looking for a dark haired sorceress. It wasn't my choice but there you have it. So, there is hope after all(there isn't really but just humour me here). My PC is a hopeless romantic(or an idiot, Alistair still owes me a boon, I should've stayed in Denerim).

He took a fireball in the face and then got chewed by a high-dragon-abomination in order to protect the woman he loves. He got back to camp and made a promise to Morrigan that he will always protect her.

And speaking of that promise, lets not forget the whole "Flemeth body-snatching" tale. If your character truly loves her, would he really let her and his child at the mercy of Flemeth? I think not.

A simple "don't follow me" without any explanation won't stop him. Flemeth didn't stop him, the archdemon didn't stop him.

After 60+ hours of putting your heart into the game you feel the need to get the most of it and it's characters. Even if you try to let go, you just can't. She owes my Warden a lot of answers, and they better be good ones. The epilogue hints some sort of continuation. In my opininon it is a false hope but I'm probably the only one who thinks this way. Most Morrigan fans are very optimistic for some reason.

I hated that ending to be honest, something I mentioned it countless times on these forums. I think I desrved better than that(and everyone else in my shoes really). I would rather not play the same ending again. So... the opinion of someone who hates her ending and yet decided not to let go must mean something... right?

If the writers ever give me the chance to wrap up that storyline then I'll take it. Whether it's tragedy, death or simply a happily ever after, I'll take it.

THIS . . .  IS . . . WIN!!

i think you sir have also sumed up my feelings aswel right there, nice work.

[sylvanaerie]

I dunno I think the tragedy of the Morrigan romance is part of its appeal/beauty. I for one wouldn't mind a bit more with Flemeth and Morrigan in DA2 but would really be pissed if it involves a baby as canon. I really LOVE the US ending, its one of my favorites and to have that sacrifice just poo pooed away to satisfy those who want more Morrigan/freakbaby story would really ****** me off. But then Bioware wouldn't do something like that geared to a specific audience would they?



*Cough*DarkspawnDLC*Cough*



...I think I just answered my own question...*headdesk*

[Shady314]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I posted a similar topic in the wrong thread, so I thought I should put it where it belonged.

I've seen numerous posters (in various topics) who are quite determined to chase Morrigan down to the ends of Thedas, even though her "help" in defeating the archdemon without dying included an agreement between the two of you that you would never go after her ---EVER.

Since there are those who lambast Cullen for having rather complete fantasies about a certain female mage and call him a perverted stalker, am I the only one who sees the irony here?

Morrigan was pretty adamant that she never see you again as part of the condition for helping you to live.  I believe that she might see the GW who comes after her as a stalker and with good reason.  Had I demanded, as the price for my help, the right to raise the child alone and without interference from my lover, I would be "upset."  Morrigan might just fireball your tushy.....

Please help me understand why you would pursue her in light of that. (Aside from the fact that she''s "smokin hot" as one poster put it.)  Is there a legitimate reason to break your word?

It's your child too despite any previous oral agreements. I'm not pursuing her. I'm pursuing my kid. The focus of these topics is always on Morrigan. I can let go of her. Relationships end. Accepting being a deadbeat dad is harder.

Modifié par Shady314, 14 mai 2010 - 01:42 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Never played Baldur's Gate.  Wasn't into gaming then. I thought about buying it but they only support it on Windows XP, it's not supported on Windows 7.

Baldurs Gate works fine on windows 7.

EXCELLENT!  I really want to play it because I've heard so many good things about it in this forum.

[McMaze]

Carmen_Willow wrote...


Since there are those who lambast Cullen for having rather complete fantasies about a certain female mage and call him a perverted stalker, am I the only one who sees the irony here?

Yes most likely you are. But please feel free to explain the irony of this situation, because I don't see any irony there.

Morrigan was pretty adamant that she never see you again as part of the
condition for helping you to live.  I believe that she might see the GW
who comes after her as a stalker and with good reason.  Had I demanded,
as the price for my help, the right to raise the child alone and without
interference from my lover, I would be "upset."  Morrigan might just
fireball your tushy.....

So what ? The warden lied about not coming after her and so did Morrigan when she joined his party. Infact Morrigan lied most of the time. I don't see any problems here. btw. I doubt that she is capable of killing the Warden at least not after her pathetic performance in the final battle. Her Shapeshifter specialization is certainly not helping.

Please help me understand why you would pursue her in light of that.
(Aside from the fact that she''s "smokin hot" as one poster put it.) 
Is there a legitimate reason to break your word?

Revenge, desire, sense of responsibility or simply boredom to just name a few. Whether something qualifies as a "legitimate reason" depends on the point of view. I think in this case there are a plenty of good reasons for the warden to break his word and he would still be a morally good character. The first one that comes to my mind is that you don't help creating a demon god baby without looking into it further.

[Corker]

What squicks me is how women's decisions get the shaft here.



HNF who wants to fight alongside her love, to the end, like her parents did? And then sacrifice herself? Not yours, no can has. I'd have settled for Alistair going blue (ally as opposed to Companion) and whoever killed the Archdemon, killed it and died.



Morrigan wants to leave? Not hers, no can has. If she wanted to be found, she'd get found. But no, she can't possibly actually make that decision for herself.



I'd be a lot more comfortable with a Warden who refused her terms and *then* went looking for her - that's at least honest. But agreeing to let her go and then deciding that your need to know somehow trumps the promise you made her... well, I wouldn't expect a warm welcome.

[Addai]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Given Morrigan's philosophy about survival and power, I think she identifies with her aggressor (exactly what Flemeth would have wanted, a brain mass that was configured as closely as possible to her own to inhabit). 

Couple questions:
a) How does Morrigan become an abuser?  Her suggestions to the PC in-game must be understood in light of the fact that the Warden has a seemingly impossible task which, if s(he) fails, could cause the world to end.  Morrigan is not suggesting he increase his power merely to be capricious.

What do you make of her ardent and seemingly clear-headed criticisms of Flemeth's way of doing things?  In banter, dialogue and action she makes a break from Flemeth.

If Morrigan's abuse as a child is insurmountable, that makes you wonder about other NPCs like Zevran who also suffered terrible abuse.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 mai 2010 - 04:26 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Addai67 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Given Morrigan's philosophy about survival and power, I think she identifies with her aggressor (exactly what Flemeth would have wanted, a brain mass that was configured as closely as possible to her own to inhabit). 

Couple questions:
a) How does Morrigan become an abuser?  Her suggestions to the PC in-game must be understood in light of the fact that the Warden has a seemingly impossible task which, if s(he) fails, could cause the world to end.  Morrigan is not suggesting he increase his power merely to be capricious.

I cannot prove that Morrigan would be an abuser (although I would be concerned for her child) -- but she definitely identifies with her aggressor.  She often defends some of Flemeth's cruelty and seems to sincerely believe that it is okay to sacrifice others to increase her survival and power.  I've never taken the Calidrus (sp?) scenario all the way through to killing the helpless elves, but Morrigan's dialogue at that point seems to suggest that she would have few qualms in doing so.  I don't think Morrigan works for the Warden's success for any reason other than it will help her succeed at her own task. (Perhaps that changes a little when she falls in love with the Warden, but ultimately, she returns to her baseline position - survival and power.) I thnk she bought Flemeth's "life script" in order to survive, but I think she bought it.


What do you make of her ardent and seemingly clear-headed criticisms of Flemeth's way of doing things?  In banter, dialogue and action she makes a break from Flemeth.


One can have clear insight into the things your abuser has done wrong and still mimic the abuser's behavior, particularly under stress. Insight doesn't always equal change.


If Morrigan's abuse as a child is insurmountable, that makes you wonder about other NPCs like Zevran who also suffered terrible abuse.

I thnk that Zevran is one of those truly lucky personalities that can suffer hideous amounts of trauma without being broken --but people like Zev are very rare.  And even though he is personally resilient, he shows little empathy for others...no doubt part of his life-long training as an assasain. In that regard, he is damaged.

And he still identifies with his aggressors -- he does not eschew murder as a profession -- he doesn't have a problem with it at all.  (But as he rightly points out, everyone in this story is a killer. Oh, the irony.)

Forgive my putting the responses in the box.  Haven't really taken the time to play with the cut and paste in the forum yet.

[Sarah1281]

And even though he is personally resilient, he shows little empathy for others

Little empathy for others? He freaks out if he's in the party when you try to kill the mages, the Dalish, the city elves...he objects for more moral reasons than Wynne does who is easily convinced to slaughter the Dalish on the grounds that saving them isn't your job.

[Addai]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

[i]I cannot prove that Morrigan would be an abuser (although I would be concerned for her child) -- but she definitely identifies with her aggressor.  She often defends some of Flemeth's cruelty and seems to sincerely believe that it is okay to sacrifice others to increase her survival and power.  I've never taken the Calidrus (sp?) scenario all the way through to killing the helpless elves, but Morrigan's dialogue at that point seems to suggest that she would have few qualms in doing so.  I don't think Morrigan works for the Warden's success for any reason other than it will help her succeed at her own task. (Perhaps that changes a little when she falls in love with the Warden, but ultimately, she returns to her baseline position - survival and power.) I thnk she bought Flemeth's "life script" in order to survive, but I think she bought it.

I addressed Morrigan's advice to the PC above.  Her advice in-game is in the context of knowing what will happen if the Blight succeeds.  Flemeth more than anyone in Ferelden seems to know what the Blight is capable of wreaking, and Morrigan must, as well.

She supports Flemeth defending herself against templars, but abhors her cruelty with Chasind men, her method of extending her life (she calls her an abomination), and also distinguishes herself from maleficarum.

There is ample evidence that while Morrigan may start out with completely self-centered motives towards the Warden, that if befriended or romanced that she begins to change.  Her intention to do the DR remains, but her reasons for wanting to do so become not only to gain for herself but to save the Warden's life.

[Carmen_Willow]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And even though he is personally resilient, he shows little empathy for others

Little empathy for others? He freaks out if he's in the party when you try to kill the mages, the Dalish, the city elves...he objects for more moral reasons than Wynne does who is easily convinced to slaughter the Dalish on the grounds that saving them isn't your job.

Sorry, haven't gotten those dialogue choices with Zev.  But then, I've never deliberately tried to kill the mages, the Dalish or the City Elves.  Most of the dialogue I get from him is off-hand descriptions of kills and methods. I keep trying to choose some of the "other options" but I often find I cannot.  So, as I believe you when you tell me he does feel empathy, then that would strengthen my hypothesis that Zev is one of the truly resilient.  He would have survived Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen without being broken by it.  There are people who can suffer horrendus abuse and trauma and make it through with minimal scarring.

[Carmen_Willow]

Addai67 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I cannot prove that Morrigan would be an abuser (although I would be concerned for her child) -- but she definitely identifies with her aggressor.  She often defends some of Flemeth's cruelty and seems to sincerely believe that it is okay to sacrifice others to increase her survival and power.  I've never taken the Calidrus (sp?) scenario all the way through to killing the helpless elves, but Morrigan's dialogue at that point seems to suggest that she would have few qualms in doing so.  I don't think Morrigan works for the Warden's success for any reason other than it will help her succeed at her own task. (Perhaps that changes a little when she falls in love with the Warden, but ultimately, she returns to her baseline position - survival and power.) I thnk she bought Flemeth's "life script" in order to survive, but I think she bought it.

I addressed Morrigan's advice to the PC above.  Her advice in-game is in the context of knowing what will happen if the Blight succeeds.  Flemeth more than anyone in Ferelden seems to know what the Blight is capable of wreaking, and Morrigan must, as well.

She supports Flemeth defending herself against templars, but abhors her cruelty with Chasind men, her method of extending her life (she calls her an abomination), and also distinguishes herself from maleficarum.

Morrigan explains in the Fade why she doesn't make deals with demons.  She's no fool!  I'd love to see the dialogue where she distinguishes herself from maleficarum because either I'm not recognizing it or I haven't tripped it.  And I agree with Morrigan that if someone wanted to take my body in order to extend their life, they are an abomination. But given the Calidrus option, I'm not sure she'd object to taking some elven lives to extend her own....or give her more power.

There is ample evidence that while Morrigan may start out with completely self-centered motives towards the Warden, that if befriended or romanced that she begins to change.  Her intention to do the DR remains, but her reasons for wanting to do so become not only to gain for herself but to save the Warden's life.

And yet her argument to one of my Wardens was something to the effect of [i]Alistair will die and get all the glory and you'll just be the other warden..something like that. It's a key to her personality that she would think this was an effective argument to make. 

[Addai]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

And yet her argument to one of my Wardens was something to the effect of Alistair will die and get all the glory and you'll just be the other warden..something like that. It's a key to her personality that she would think this was an effective argument to make. 

If that's the case, then the fact that she appeals to the love between a Warden and the Warden's LI means that that is an insight into her character.  I think she is just trying to throw a lot of rationale at you hoping some of it is going to stick.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 mai 2010 - 05:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Carmen_Willow wrote...
And yet her argument to one of my Wardens was something to the effect of Alistair will die and get all the glory and you'll just be the other warden..something like that. It's a key to her personality that she would think this was an effective argument to make. 

She threw several arguments, including this one. And it's more of an insight to your Warden than Morrigan, if he / she is convinced. From the dialogue options, it's clear that our Warden can think that being a Grey Warden is all about glory.

So I do not see how it's an insight to Morrigan's character that she is trying to appeal to the honor and glory seeking of a Warden that he /  she potentially is interested in.