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[Master Shiori]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

And yet her argument to one of my Wardens was something to the effect of Alistair will die and get all the glory and you'll just be the other warden..something like that. It's a key to her personality that she would think this was an effective argument to make. 

If we're going to analyze Morrigan's personality based on her behaviour during the dark ritual then once thing needs to be cleared.

David Gaider himself said that the current DR scene in the game was initialy tailored for those characters who threated Morrigan with suspicion or hostility during the course of the game. That's why she comes of as sinister and tries to apeal to you notion of glory.

Wardens who romanced her or were friendly with her were supposed to get a different scene where Morrigan would actually struggle with her words and be visibly torn about what she needs you to do.

Sadly, due to lack of time on develophers part, this emotional scene got cut and we ended up with the "default" ritual.
That's why Morrigan comes off as cold during the DR. She didn't learn the value of love or friendship from the Warden and thus was the same as when you met her in Koschari Wilds, except a few extra lines were added for those who romanced her. It's only in these lines that Morri shows her true feelings.

[Carmen_Willow]

Master Shiori wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

And yet her argument to one of my Wardens was something to the effect of Alistair will die and get all the glory and you'll just be the other warden..something like that. It's a key to her personality that she would think this was an effective argument to make. 

If we're going to analyze Morrigan's personality based on her behaviour during the dark ritual then once thing needs to be cleared.

David Gaider himself said that the current DR scene in the game was initialy tailored for those characters who threated Morrigan with suspicion or hostility during the course of the game. That's why she comes of as sinister and tries to apeal to you notion of glory.

Wardens who romanced her or were friendly with her were supposed to get a different scene where Morrigan would actually struggle with her words and be visibly torn about what she needs you to do.

Sadly, due to lack of time on develophers part, this emotional scene got cut and we ended up with the "default" ritual.
That's why Morrigan comes off as cold during the DR. She didn't learn the value of love or friendship from the Warden and thus was the same as when you met her in Koschari Wilds, except a few extra lines were added for those who romanced her. It's only in these lines that Morri shows her true feelings.

It still doesn't change the fact that Morrigan chooses to do what she needs to do to achieve her goal, whatever that truly is.  If she truly were doing this to save you, you would think she would feel less guilty, not more.  Having this baby was on her agenda long before she grew to love you.  I merely posit that Morrigan believes this wil give her the "survival and power" she needs to feel safe, and that safety is more important to her than love. 

[Addai]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I merely posit that Morrigan believes this wil give her the "survival and power" she needs to feel safe, and that safety is more important to her than love. 

Isn't that kind of psych 101, Maslow's hierarchy type of behavior, though?

Morrigan comes out and tells you her life philosophy early on if you talk to her in camp.  "Beauty and love have no meaning.  Survival has meaning.  Power has meaning."  Just because she thinks this, however, doesn't mean that she is incapable of change.  She hasn't known any other way.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 mai 2010 - 10:55 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Der Kirk wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Please help me understand why you would pursue her in light of that. (Aside from the fact that she''s "smokin hot" as one poster put it.)  Is there a legitimate reason to break your word?

What about killing the damned child, thus saving the world from a new mad god who would only bring incredible suffering to everyone?

Naw that wouldn't happen. Morrigan said the soul would be uncorrupted. She wouldnt lie to my warden right?  ... Right? ... some reassurance please...

I had to laugh at this...Morrigan? Lie? Nah!

[Carmen_Willow]

Corker wrote...

What squicks me is how women's decisions get the shaft here.

HNF who wants to fight alongside her love, to the end, like her parents did? And then sacrifice herself? Not yours, no can has. I'd have settled for Alistair going blue (ally as opposed to Companion) and whoever killed the Archdemon, killed it and died.

Morrigan wants to leave? Not hers, no can has. If she wanted to be found, she'd get found. But no, she can't possibly actually make that decision for herself.

I'd be a lot more comfortable with a Warden who refused her terms and *then* went looking for her - that's at least honest. But agreeing to let her go and then deciding that your need to know somehow trumps the promise you made her... well, I wouldn't expect a warm welcome.

Thank you for making this point.  If you love this woman, why would you not want what she wants for herself? Why would you think you know what she needs more than she knows? 

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 14 mai 2010 - 11:01 .

[Tirigon]

Corker wrote...

I'd be a lot more comfortable with a Warden who refused her terms and *then* went looking for her - that's at least honest. But agreeing to let her go and then deciding that your need to know somehow trumps the promise you made her... well, I wouldn't expect a warm welcome.

Is there an option to refuse her wish to be left alone? I´m not sure anymore, but I think not.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

Corker wrote...

I'd be a lot more comfortable with a Warden who refused her terms and *then* went looking for her - that's at least honest. But agreeing to let her go and then deciding that your need to know somehow trumps the promise you made her... well, I wouldn't expect a warm welcome.

Is there an option to refuse her wish to be left alone? I´m not sure anymore, but I think not.

 There is an option to tell her "I will find you, I promise" at the gates of Denerim. She only says "I do not think that is wise", but she does not seem angry or rejecting. In fact. she seems saddened.

[XwingVmanX]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I posted a similar topic in the wrong thread, so I thought I should put it where it belonged.

I've seen numerous posters (in various topics) who are quite determined to chase Morrigan down to the ends of Thedas, even though her "help" in defeating the archdemon without dying included an agreement between the two of you that you would never go after her ---EVER.

Since there are those who lambast Cullen for having rather complete fantasies about a certain female mage and call him a perverted stalker, am I the only one who sees the irony here?

Morrigan was pretty adamant that she never see you again as part of the condition for helping you to live.  I believe that she might see the GW who comes after her as a stalker and with good reason.  Had I demanded, as the price for my help, the right to raise the child alone and without interference from my lover, I would be "upset."  Morrigan might just fireball your tushy.....

Please help me understand why you would pursue her in light of that. (Aside from the fact that she''s "smokin hot" as one poster put it.)  Is there a legitimate reason to break your word?

I don't remember how I did it, but I chose dialogue choices so that I agreed to do it but I was going to come after her. And she said I was welcomed to try. So technically me not following her wasnt apart of my agreement. And the only reason I want to go after he is because I am afraid of leaving any child in her care lol.

I think she is planning to do what her mother had done.

[Sarah1281]

I don't remember how I did it, but I chose dialogue choices so that I agreed to do it but I was going to come after her. And she said I was welcomed to try. So technically me not following her wasnt apart of my agreement. And the only reason I want to go after he is because I am afraid of leaving any child in her care lol.



I think she is planning to do what her mother had done.

In order for that to be at all plausible, two important questions must be answered.



1) How can a non-abomination like Morrigan hope to duplicate a feat that requires being an abomination?

2) What the hell is the point in preserving the soul of the Old God if she's simply going to get rid of it with a ritual?

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

1) How can a non-abomination like Morrigan hope to duplicate a feat that requires being an abomination?
2) What the hell is the point in preserving the soul of the Old God if she's simply going to get rid of it with a ritual?

The Old God isn't an abomination, and does it just fine.

The second one is the point that usually wins these discussions.

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

1) How can a non-abomination like Morrigan hope to duplicate a feat that requires being an abomination?
2) What the hell is the point in preserving the soul of the Old God if she's simply going to get rid of it with a ritual?

The Old God isn't an abomination, and does it just fine.

The second one is the point that usually wins these discussions.

The Old God, whatever it may be, is a little more powerful than a simple mage which is what Morrigan is. And once it dies it has to go to a soulless vessel or else it and the GW both die so that's not quite the same.

[Herr Uhl]

True. but it isn't impossible. Improbable, but not impossible. Though, from what I've heard about blood-magic possession, it sounds like being taken over by a demon. Since that magic descends from demons, there might be a way to transfer souls that route.



Not obliterating the soul, just making it your [female canine].

[Sarah1281]

So basically, if you're concerned about the baby don't make Morrigan a blood mage. Why tempt fate?

[Herr Uhl]

She does know blood magic though *points at the dark ritual*.

[Vicious]

The dark ritual is my favorite kind of blood magic.

[Master Shiori]

She may not reveal the entire truth to the Warden, but she never tells a falsehood either.



Simply put, she'll give you the info she wants to give and keep what she doesn't want you to know to herself.

[Lexaconn]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I had to laugh at this...Morrigan? Lie? Nah!

This is a funny thing. Do you ever catch her lying in the game?
If you think about it Morrigan doesn’t lie to you or you can't catch her lying, she is just very evasive and sarcastic.

I think Morrigan is the most truthful character in the game. People tend to forget that honesty may come across as cruel, unless everybody's perfect, of course.

My Warden would definitely follow Morrigan. Not only because he romanced her, but also to make sure that the DR isn't something he will regret. I also like to believe this is what Morrigan wants.

I'll be a little disappointed if this isn't handled in a DLC with my existing Warden in some manner...

[old book]

Yup, Morrigan does lie to you at least once, keeping the ritual secret even if asked directly why she came.



OTOH, she tells the exact truth about how she feels about you, and about the nature of your relationship. She warns you that she doesn't want to love you, and that loving her will bring you pain. Of course, as any psych student or soap opera fan will tell you, that's one of the best ways of making your character fall hard for her.

[Lintanis]

In one of my playthru's my mage told her he would not follow or chase after her, but after awakenings in the epilogue I get told my character left Vigils Keep never to return leaving to find his love Morrigan. Something must of happened to suddenly change my characters mind

[Tooneyman]

Lintanis wrote...

In one of my playthru's my mage told her he would not follow or chase after her, but after awakenings in the epilogue I get told my character left Vigils Keep never to return leaving to find his love Morrigan. Something must of happened to suddenly change my characters mind

Yeah you ended the first game with morrigan in love with you. You dirty rat. Booo. I wanted that ending.

[Carmen_Willow]

Addai67 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I merely posit that Morrigan believes this wil give her the "survival and power" she needs to feel safe, and that safety is more important to her than love. 

Isn't that kind of psych 101, Maslow's hierarchy type of behavior, though?

Morrigan comes out and tells you her life philosophy early on if you talk to her in camp.  "Beauty and love have no meaning.  Survival has meaning.  Power has meaning."  Just because she thinks this, however, doesn't mean that she is incapable of change.  She hasn't known any other way.

Maslow didn't get everything wrong, although I am not a fan.  Think of it in terms of evolution.  Safety = survival = more chances a reproduction.  Hence there are more offspring of safety seekers than risk takers.  It is why most of the population tends to avoid risk.  Most children, when made to choose between safety and love will choose safety.  If they don't have that option, many spend their lives seeking ways to be safe.

Can Morrigan change?  Sure, anyone can change.  Is she likely too? I don't think so. People tend to act in what they perceive to be their own best interest.  That perception may be faulty.....very faulty at times, but most people act in their perception of their own best interest.  As you stated, Morrigan believes that her best interest lies in survival and power.  She must change that belief to change her behavior.

[Carmen_Willow]

Tooneyman wrote...

Lintanis wrote...

In one of my playthru's my mage told her he would not follow or chase after her, but after awakenings in the epilogue I get told my character left Vigils Keep never to return leaving to find his love Morrigan. Something must of happened to suddenly change my characters mind

Yeah you ended the first game with morrigan in love with you. You dirty rat. Booo. I wanted that ending.

Which begs the question:  Just what does Mr. Gaider have in mind for Miss Morrigan and her offspring?

[Brockololly]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Maslow didn't get everything wrong, although I am not a fan.  Think of it in terms of evolution.  Safety = survival = more chances a reproduction.  Hence there are more offspring of safety seekers than risk takers.  It is why most of the population tends to avoid risk.  Most children, when made to choose between safety and love will choose safety.  If they don't have that option, many spend their lives seeking ways to be safe.

Can Morrigan change?  Sure, anyone can change.  Is she likely too? I don't think so. People tend to act in what they perceive to be their own best interest.  That perception may be faulty.....very faulty at times, but most people act in their perception of their own best interest.  As you stated, Morrigan believes that her best interest lies in survival and power.  She must change that belief to change her behavior.

As far as Morrigan's concern with survival and power, my question is why would she think getting knocked up, having a baby and running away from the Warden (arguably one of the more powerful people in Thedas) would be a good idea at least in the short term? I've got to imagine that you might not be in tip-top fighting shape when one is a pregnant apostate or even when you're trying to raise and care for a child.  So why wouldn't Morrigan have wanted the Warden to come along if he's been romancing her, for protection if nothing else? Does the nature of her plans or the nature of the Old God Baby preclude the Warden from aiding her?

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Which begs the question:  Just what does Mr. Gaider have
in mind for Miss Morrigan and her offspring?

That is the million dollar question, isn't it?