157 réponses à ce sujet

[XwingVmanX]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't remember how I did it, but I chose dialogue choices so that I agreed to do it but I was going to come after her. And she said I was welcomed to try. So technically me not following her wasnt apart of my agreement. And the only reason I want to go after he is because I am afraid of leaving any child in her care lol.

I think she is planning to do what her mother had done.

In order for that to be at all plausible, two important questions must be answered.

1) How can a non-abomination like Morrigan hope to duplicate a feat that requires being an abomination?
2) What the hell is the point in preserving the soul of the Old God if she's simply going to get rid of it with a ritual?

1) You don't know all the details of the spells in Flemeth's Grimwars there could be multiple ways to preform the ritual. Also I don't remember anything saying that you had to be an abomination.
2) The point is that when she takes over the body she will gain all the powers of the old god. Do you honestly think Morrigan just wants to preserve the soul of an old god? 

[Sarah1281]

1) You don't know all the details of the spells in Flemeth's Grimwars there could be multiple ways to preform the ritual. Also I don't remember anything saying that you had to be an abomination.

2) The point is that when she takes over the body she will gain all the powers of the old god. Do you honestly think Morrigan just wants to preserve the soul of an old god?

When Morrigan says she found out how her mother stayed alive and you can suggest she use it before Morrigan explains, she says that she could if she were a centuries-old abomination. While she could be lying, possession really does seem more of a demon thing than a powerful mage thing.



And if we're to believe that the Old God child has special powers at all, it will have to be because of its soul as the body will just be that of a human or half-dwarf. If Morrigan takes over the body and gets rid of the soul, she'll get a nice, powerful mage to possess but no special Old God powers so why would she bother with the ritual? Or do you think that the fact that the soul might contain powers will mutate the body so it will keep the powers even after the source of them is gone?

[XwingVmanX]

I do remember that now, but I still feel that she plans on using the power the old god possesses in some way. After all the ritual was a blood magic ritual and from my perspective the whole point behind blood magic is to gain more power by using the life force of yourself or another.

But Morrigan did say that the reason her mother sent her on the adventure was so she could become more powerful because the more powerful she became the easier it was for Flemeth to take over her body. Though she doesn't directly say it, it sounds like she would keep all the powers Morrigan possessed plus what she already knew. So I figured it would work the same way with the old god, she would gain all the powers the old god knew at the time.

Modifié par XwingVmanX, 16 mai 2010 - 08:07 .

[TheBlackBaron]

XwingVmanX wrote...

I do remember that now, but I still feel that she plans on using the power the old god possesses in some way. After all the ritual was a blood magic ritual and from my perspective the whole point behind blood magic is to gain more power by using the life force of yourself or another.

But Morrigan did say that the reason her mother sent her on the adventure was so she could become more powerful because the more powerful she became the easier it was for Flemeth to take over her body. Though she doesn't directly say it, it sounds like she would keep all the powers Morrigan possessed plus what she already knew. So I figured it would work the same way with the old god, she would gain all the powers the old god knew at the time.

Except Flemeth is some kind of demon-abomination-mage-symbiot thing.

What makes you think it would work the same way if Morrigan were doing it?

[Tirigon]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Which begs the question:  Just what does Mr. Gaider have in mind for Miss Morrigan and her offspring?

I hope not a happy family with 2 more children.

I´d prefer something involving GLORIOUS BATTLE!!

[old book]

Brockololly wrote...

As far as Morrigan's concern with survival and power, my question is why would she think getting knocked up, having a baby and running away from the Warden (arguably one of the more powerful people in Thedas) would be a good idea at least in the short term? I've got to imagine that you might not be in tip-top fighting shape when one is a pregnant apostate or even when you're trying to raise and care for a child.  So why wouldn't Morrigan have wanted the Warden to come along if he's been romancing her, for protection if nothing else? Does the nature of her plans or the nature of the Old God Baby preclude the Warden from aiding her?

That's a good question. 

I'm guessing that she expects to gain more power from being in control of an infant old god than she could ever gain from association with the Warden, and that she doesn't want to have to deal with any objections the Warden may have about how she chooses to use that power. She has her magic to keep her safe until she gives birth and for her few vulnerable days before and after. That assumes weakness before and after giving birth are even an issue. She might be able to give birth without any risks, given her power by the time you say goodbye.

[Addai]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Can Morrigan change?  Sure, anyone can change.  Is she likely too? I don't think so. People tend to act in what they perceive to be their own best interest.  That perception may be faulty.....very faulty at times, but most people act in their perception of their own best interest.  As you stated, Morrigan believes that her best interest lies in survival and power.  She must change that belief to change her behavior.

Most of us can reconcile a desire for safety with needs for companionship and love.  They aren't mutually exclusive.

Morrigan's drive for power in order to survive is not simply a motivation springing from her upbringing.  She is an apostate mage whose very existence is considered a threat to civilization by the Chantry.  Even though the templars in the game are presented as rather ineffectual, someone who can leave you defenseless simply through the power of mind is a considerable threat, let alone an army of such people.  I'm currently playing a Dalish mage (via a mod that allows that) and so this is apparent to me as I imagine my PC moving in that world, hated as both elf and mage.  It's enough to make anyone sleep with one eye open.  Can you blame Morrigan for wanting to turn the tables so that she is not always running and hiding?

[VampireCommando]

Tirigon wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Which begs the question:  Just what does Mr. Gaider have in mind for Miss Morrigan and her offspring?

I hope not a happy family with 2 more children.

I´d prefer something involving GLORIOUS BATTLE!!

Morrigan, with two chlidern, being happy, being normal, sure dont sound like the woman i feel inlove with, lol but being serious now the i belive you second sugestion of battle, sounds about right, i dont think she'd be much inclined to have any children after the demon child as we know what morri is like and i would put money on the fact she wont want to share him, even with there ofspring. 

[XwingVmanX]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

XwingVmanX wrote...

I do remember that now, but I still feel that she plans on using the power the old god possesses in some way. After all the ritual was a blood magic ritual and from my perspective the whole point behind blood magic is to gain more power by using the life force of yourself or another.

But Morrigan did say that the reason her mother sent her on the adventure was so she could become more powerful because the more powerful she became the easier it was for Flemeth to take over her body. Though she doesn't directly say it, it sounds like she would keep all the powers Morrigan possessed plus what she already knew. So I figured it would work the same way with the old god, she would gain all the powers the old god knew at the time.

Except Flemeth is some kind of demon-abomination-mage-symbiot thing.

What makes you think it would work the same way if Morrigan were doing it?

Blood magic is blood magic, having an abomination behind you would just give it an extra kick.

But if you really want to get technical, while talking to Wynn about what an abomination is, you can propose that someone isn't an abomination if they keep there sanity and remember what it is to be human, and she agrees thats a good point. So by that logic Flemeth wouldnt be an abomination.

[TheBlackBaron]

XwingVmanX wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Except Flemeth is some kind of demon-abomination-mage-symbiot thing.

What makes you think it would work the same way if Morrigan were doing it?

Blood magic is blood magic, having an abomination behind you would just give it an extra kick.

But if you really want to get technical, while talking to Wynn about what an abomination is, you can propose that someone isn't an abomination if they keep there sanity and remember what it is to be human, and she agrees thats a good point. So by that logic Flemeth wouldnt be an abomination.

It doesn't matter whether she's called an abomination or not (for what it's worth I partially agree with  you), she's still got the demon inside her, and that's what makes her whole posession schtick work, not just blood magic alone.

Morrigan might be able to evict the Old God's soul from the child's body via blood magic, and take control of the body, but she wouldn't be able to bond with the Old Godin any fashion, and would gain none of its powers, thus negating the entire purpose of the ritual in the first place. She'd have gained nothing except a new body.

[Nu-Nu]

Flemmeth is unlike any other Abomination, she has a symbiosis relationship with the demon instead of the demon taking full control, Morrigan explains this. Morrigan might hope to have a symbiosis relationship with the old god if she was evil but I don't think she is. I think she ran away to protect the godchild from getting tainted because she know how dangerous the godchild could be if that were to happen. I think she thinks that she is strong enough to handle the child.



I think Morrigan has taken the burden of the godchild on to herself. Flemmeth is the only one I worry about.

[spottyblanket]

I actullay don't think Morrigan cares about humanity, but cares about power, true power. What her Godchild means for the world we don't know, maybe it will progress the world, maybe it will give mages back the control.

[Carmen_Willow]

Addai67 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Can Morrigan change?  Sure, anyone can change.  Is she likely too? I don't think so. People tend to act in what they perceive to be their own best interest.  That perception may be faulty.....very faulty at times, but most people act in their perception of their own best interest.  As you stated, Morrigan believes that her best interest lies in survival and power.  She must change that belief to change her behavior.

Most of us can reconcile a desire for safety with needs for companionship and love.  They aren't mutually exclusive.

Morrigan's drive for power in order to survive is not simply a motivation springing from her upbringing.  She is an apostate mage whose very existence is considered a threat to civilization by the Chantry.  Even though the templars in the game are presented as rather ineffectual, someone who can leave you defenseless simply through the power of mind is a considerable threat, let alone an army of such people.  I'm currently playing a Dalish mage (via a mod that allows that) and so this is apparent to me as I imagine my PC moving in that world, hated as both elf and mage.  It's enough to make anyone sleep with one eye open.  Can you blame Morrigan for wanting to turn the tables so that she is not always running and hiding?

Not at all. I can completely respect Morrigan's decision.  I am just amazed at those who cannot even though their character professes to love her. 

I wish they'd had a Dalish Keeper origin in DA:O.  That would have been so much more fun to play than "Mage Vanilla."

[Sarah1281]

Morrigan might hope to have a symbiosis relationship with the old god if she was evil but I don't think she is.

If anything it would be more of a parasitic relationship. Flemeth's demon needs her to be able to interact with the human world. The Old God can already do that once it's born so how would it benefit from such an arrangement? Plus they both already have physical bodies.

[Sarah1281]

Not at all. I can completely respect Morrigan's decision. I am just amazed at those who cannot even though their character professes to love her.

Letting Morrigan leave is one thing but do you really feel its unreasonable or stalker-ish to not be okay with her taking your child away to be raised in complete isolation with you never seeing it again? See how well that would go over in RL.

[Carmen_Willow]

Tirigon wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Which begs the question:  Just what does Mr. Gaider have in mind for Miss Morrigan and her offspring?

I hope not a happy family with 2 more children.

I´d prefer something involving GLORIOUS BATTLE!!

Yeah, picket fences and a dog in the yard just doesn't quite go with OLD GOD child.  More along the lines of (if you put Alistair on the throne), "Let's go visit dear old dad and try to depose him." Or, "Let's get dear old Dad to help us kick his former comrade off the throne so I can sit there."

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, picket fences and a dog in the yard just doesn't quite go with OLD GOD child. More along the lines of (if you put Alistair on the throne), "Let's go visit dear old dad and try to depose him." Or, "Let's get dear old Dad to help us kick his former comrade off the throne so I can sit there."

Why would Morrigan be interested in something so trivial as the Ferelden throne? And she couldn't honestly believe that the PC who put Alistair on the throne would help remove him or that she could ever rule. Her child is a bastard so unless Alistair acknowledges it it would have no claim and if it's a mage it can't be ruler anyway.



Honestly, I think Morrigan has grander ambitions than just the throne seeing she doesn't care if Alistair is king, if Loghain does it, or if you do it (although in some cases she'd prefer it to be you).

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, picket fences and a dog in the yard just doesn't quite go with OLD GOD child. More along the lines of (if you put Alistair on the throne), "Let's go visit dear old dad and try to depose him." Or, "Let's get dear old Dad to help us kick his former comrade off the throne so I can sit there."

Why would Morrigan be interested in something so trivial as the Ferelden throne? And she couldn't honestly believe that the PC who put Alistair on the throne would help remove him or that she could ever rule. Her child is a bastard so unless Alistair acknowledges it it would have no claim and if it's a mage it can't be ruler anyway.

Honestly, I think Morrigan has grander ambitions than just the throne seeing she doesn't care if Alistair is king, if Loghain does it, or if you do it (although in some cases she'd prefer it to be you).

While Morrigan probably isn't after the throne, it's worth remembering that Maric never acknowledged Alistair as an heir publicly.  If Alistair dies with no legitimate heir, a bastard produced from thin air by a powerful family like the Couslands might be accepted by the Landsmeet.  It's a factor that makes me much more reluctant to use Alistair for the Dark Ritual if he's king.

[grieferbastard]

The only thing you need to know about Morrigan is....

I gave her one.

[Sarah1281]

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, picket fences and a dog in the yard just doesn't quite go with OLD GOD child. More along the lines of (if you put Alistair on the throne), "Let's go visit dear old dad and try to depose him." Or, "Let's get dear old Dad to help us kick his former comrade off the throne so I can sit there."

Why would Morrigan be interested in something so trivial as the Ferelden throne? And she couldn't honestly believe that the PC who put Alistair on the throne would help remove him or that she could ever rule. Her child is a bastard so unless Alistair acknowledges it it would have no claim and if it's a mage it can't be ruler anyway.

Honestly, I think Morrigan has grander ambitions than just the throne seeing she doesn't care if Alistair is king, if Loghain does it, or if you do it (although in some cases she'd prefer it to be you).

While Morrigan probably isn't after the throne, it's worth remembering that Maric never acknowledged Alistair as an heir publicly.  If Alistair dies with no legitimate heir, a bastard produced from thin air by a powerful family like the Couslands might be accepted by the Landsmeet.  It's a factor that makes me much more reluctant to use Alistair for the Dark Ritual if he's king.

He didn't just appear out of thin air, though. A lot of people seemed to know about him and Eamon was supporting him. There is no way Alistair is going to tell people about the child if he's so concerned it might try to take the throne, if it's a mage it doesn't matter who wants the kid up there, and the only reason Eamon put Alistair up or King (besides his Theirin obsession which not everyone shares) is because he had to have someone with a least a good of a claim as Anora for that particular situation where Loghain needed to be deposed. Should Alistair die without heirs then there's no reason to assume they'll go hunt down the child. They'll just find someone else to rule.

[Addai]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Not at all. I can completely respect Morrigan's decision.  I am just amazed at those who cannot even though their character professes to love her. 

Morrigan allows enough conflict to show that it is not the same, to my mind, as someone who is breaking off a relationship.  Once she asserts herself to make contact with the Warden through the ring, that is added indication that seeing him again would not be wholly unwelcome.  If you are that willing to just let her go, you would have broken it off with her in the "release me" conversation.

[Brockololly]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Why would Morrigan be interested in something so trivial as the Ferelden throne? And she couldn't honestly believe that the PC who put Alistair on the throne would help remove him or that she could ever rule. Her child is a bastard so unless Alistair acknowledges it it would have no claim and if it's a mage it can't be ruler anyway.

Honestly, I think Morrigan has grander ambitions than just the throne seeing she doesn't care if Alistair is king, if Loghain does it, or if you do it (although in some cases she'd prefer it to be you).

While I think Morrigan's plans likely involve something far bigger than just the throne of Ferelden, she does have a thing for power. Its telling that if you don't do the ritual, in the epilogue she is rumored to have insinuated herself into the court of the Empress of Orlais. Or if you're a Cousland and romancing Morrigan, she has no problem at all with you marrying Anora. 

[old book]

Nu-Nu wrote...

Flemmeth is unlike any other Abomination, she has a symbiosis relationship with the demon instead of the demon taking full control, Morrigan explains this.

Almost any. She's a lot like Wynne.  

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...


He didn't just appear out of thin air, though. A lot of people seemed to know about him and Eamon was supporting him. There is no way Alistair is going to tell people about the child if he's so concerned it might try to take the throne, if it's a mage it doesn't matter who wants the kid up there, and the only reason Eamon put Alistair up or King (besides his Theirin obsession which not everyone shares) is because he had to have someone with a least a good of a claim as Anora for that particular situation where Loghain needed to be deposed. Should Alistair die without heirs then there's no reason to assume they'll go hunt down the child. They'll just find someone else to rule.

Well, yes...as I said, it would require a powerful family (like the Couslands) to back him, but I don't find it that hard to imagine it happening during a succession crisis.  Or--here's an interesting spin for a DA2 plot--the Empress of Orlais.  After all, Morrigan is supposed to be in her court.  Once one of the Hero of Ferelden's companions shows up with a child in tow, don't you think people will be curious who the father was?  Especially given that Alistair was the only human male companion?  I don't think it's hard to imagine rumors starting.

Out of thin air is an exaggeration, but at least initially, Alistair's birth was a secret--he was rumored to be Eammon's bastard, not Maric's.  I suspect the truth must have started to circulate after Alistair was sent to the chantry...maybe once Callan was born and alistair effectively neutered, he was viewed as less of a potential threat.  The High Cleric is probably a blabbermouth.

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Why would Morrigan be interested in something so trivial as the Ferelden throne? And she couldn't honestly believe that the PC who put Alistair on the throne would help remove him or that she could ever rule. Her child is a bastard so unless Alistair acknowledges it it would have no claim and if it's a mage it can't be ruler anyway.

Honestly, I think Morrigan has grander ambitions than just the throne seeing she doesn't care if Alistair is king, if Loghain does it, or if you do it (although in some cases she'd prefer it to be you).

While I think Morrigan's plans likely involve something far bigger than just the throne of Ferelden, she does have a thing for power. Its telling that if you don't do the ritual, in the epilogue she is rumored to have insinuated herself into the court of the Empress of Orlais. Or if you're a Cousland and romancing Morrigan, she has no problem at all with you marrying Anora. 

What I'm wondering is whther Morrigan desires power for it own sake or if, to her, power is simply a means to an end?