391 réponses à ce sujet

[Onyx Jaguar]

FarplaneGuide wrote...

I think that rpg should be defined by gameplay elements, not story progression.

I agree with this statement

[Busomjack]

I think people are putting way too much emphasis on Final Fantasy XIII not being an RPG and not enough emphasis on it just being a bad game. The latter renders the former irrelevent.

Modifié par Busomjack, 15 mai 2010 - 10:37 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Busomjack wrote...

I think people are putting way too much emphasis on Final Fantasy XIII not being an RPG and not enough emphasis on it just being a bad game. The latter renders the former irrelevent.

...

Epic statement

[FarplaneGuide]

Busomjack wrote...

I think people are putting way too much emphasis on Final Fantasy XIII not being an RPG and not enough emphasis on it just being a bad game. The latter renders the former irrelevent.

I actually liked the game but its beginning is so slow that it's painful.
I really don't know what people creating that game were thinking.
It's like playing a version of Mass Effect in which they give you a gun only after 20 hours
of running around and ramming opponents. FF13 actually has a really nice combat system
but they introduce it way to slowly. And you can use it how it should be used only after 20 hours or so.

Modifié par FarplaneGuide, 15 mai 2010 - 10:59 .

[Busomjack]

Glad you agree. Final Fantasy XIII is a terrible waste of talent. A tremendous effort went into making the game but it seems only about 1 percent of that effort was invested in anything that actually relates to the game play.
Final Fantasy XIII reminds me of those crappy full motion video games for the Sega CD and to a lesser degree the 3do(yes I owned a Sega CD and 3do, laugh it up!). The idea behind those games was that you improve the quality of a game by making it less of a game and more of a cinematic presentation piece.
The idea behind Final Fantasy XIII is roughly the same. Just focus on flash and pizazz and hope that you can dazzle the consumer into forgetting that this thing is supposed to be a game.

Final Fantasy XIII can be judged on many merits. As a showpiece for the PS3's graphical hardware power, it is a success.
As a game though, it is an absolute failure. None of the redeeming qualities in Final Fantasy XIII have anything to do with how the game plays. As a gamer, that is what matters to me and since Final Fantasy XIII considers itself a game, then I will judge it by those standards.

I think Square/Enix should really take the advice that less is more. It's like they created all these beautiful graphics and then remembered on the last weekend..
"oh, we still have to actually develop a game, lol!
I hope in Final Fantasy XV Square/Enix actually hires some people who know how to develop a fun game rather than just a talented team of artists.

Final Fantasy VI has far inferior graphics to Final Fantasy XIII but I would much much rather play Final Fantasy VI. I would gladly take a graphically inferior Final Fantasy XV over the linear railroad snoozefest marathon that was Final Fantasy XIII.

Final Fantasy XIII has recieved good scores from publications simply on the merit of it being a Final Fantasy game.  If you ask me though, Final Fantasy XIII is easily a contender for the worst game of the year.

Modifié par Busomjack, 15 mai 2010 - 11:03 .

[Batman90]

Disappointing game? Certainly, given the franchise's history and the amount of hype built up for it. But a bad game?

Breaking up FFXIII in to its core elements and examining it piece by piece, there's alot to love and dislike about the game. It has one of the greatest battle systems the franchise has ever witnessed, without a doubt. Yes, it is streamlined, and it is true that the game does not have the amount of gameplay-related options previous games in the series used, but it sacrificed these elements for more strategic, fast-paced combat. Indeed, it is the first Final Fantasy game to prove to be legitimately challenging since the PS1 era; while it's easy for the first few hours, unless you're a masterful gamer, you will die many, many times throughout the later two thirds of the game.

The world, lore and general themes of the game are very interesting, but the story-telling itself is poorly executed; it lacks the personality, memorable characters and pure entertainment value that FFVI, FFVII, FFIX and FFX had. It says alot about a game's character development when you can say that the best character in the game is a man who has a little yellow bird living in his hair.

The level design is linear for the first several hours, but in all honesty, it isn't much worse than Final Fantasy X (Which is a highly popular and critically acclaimed game, mind you).

The sidequests are terrible, though. They are nothing more than "hunts," or track down the monster that you're told to kill and kill it (But in all honesty, is it really all too different from the majority of the Mass Effect series' sidequests, which consist of similar "go to X and kill Y" missions?).

The game opens up quite a bit after 15-to-25 hours; the overworld of Gran Pulse is quite expansive. If only you could do more than just kill tough mobs in it, though.

So yeah, if you put enough time in to examining it based on its own merits, you'll see that it's a decent game. Certainly not a bad game, but far from the best the Final Fantasy series has to offer.

Modifié par Batman90, 15 mai 2010 - 11:07 .

[Seagloom]

Busomjack wrote...

Final Fantasy XIII reminds me of those crappy full motion video games for the Sega CD and to a lesser degree the 3do(yes I owned a Sega CD and 3do, laugh it up!).

Hey now, 3DO had a few very good games. That's where I played Super Wing Commander (a port of WC1&2 for those unfamiliar with it), Wing Commander III, Star Control II, Super Street Fighter II Turbo (back when no console was capable of arcade perfect ports of this series), Gex, D, Hell...

It wasn't an amazing console, but there were a few games I never would have otherwise played without the cash for a PC.

Sega CD had a few gems too. Sonic CD, Snatcher, Lunar, Lunar: Eternal Blue, and Popful Mail to name a few. It wasn't much of an add-on but a person could do so much worse. We're not talking CDI or Jaguar here! 

My apologies for the tangent.

Modifié par Seagloom, 15 mai 2010 - 11:45 .

[Busomjack]

Seagloom wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Final Fantasy XIII reminds me of those crappy full motion video games for the Sega CD and to a lesser degree the 3do(yes I owned a Sega CD and 3do, laugh it up!).

Hey now, 3DO had a few very good games. That's where I played Super Wing Commander (a port of WC1&2 for those unfamiliar with it), Wing Commander III, Star Control II, Super Street Fighter II Turbo (back when no console was capable of arcade perfect ports of this series), Gex, D, Hell...

It wasn't an amazing console, but there were a few games I never would have otherwise played without the cash for a PC.

Sega CD had a few gems too. Sonic CD, Snatcher, Lunar, Lunar: Eternal Blue, and Popful Mail to name a few. It wasn't much of an add-on but a person could do so much worse. We're not talking CDI or Jaguar here! 

My apologies for the tangent.

Oh yes, no doubt about it.  Star Control II in particular is one of my top favorite games of all time.  I created a post explaining why I think the Mass Effect series is the spiritual successor to Star Control II.  All those other games you mentioned are good too(except for super wing commander, that was undeniably crap) but those gems unfortunately do not make up for the fact that developers working on these platforms by and large ceased caring about actually developing games and thought they could compensate for the practically non-existant gameplay by focusing on full motion video which was a very new technology at the time.(At least the 3do had good FMV though)

Final Fantasy XIII is really the modern incarnation of the FMV game genre.  The idea is to just give a spectacular audio/visual presentation and hope that the gamer will not care about the actual gameplay aspect of it.

I owned a Jaguar too(I owned a lot of crappy consoles) and even that one had some good games like Tempest 2000(my favorite), Rayman, Aliens VS Predator and Doom.

Modifié par Busomjack, 15 mai 2010 - 11:52 .

[Batman90]

Seagloom wrote...
 Jaguar

Oh, the horrible, horrible controller.

It's the stuff of nightmares.

Final Fantasy XIII is really the modern incarnation of the FMV game genre.  The idea is to just give a spectacular audio/visual presentation and hope that the gamer will not care about the actual gameplay aspect of it.

The thing is, though, is that the gameplay--the battle system--is incredibly polished and fun. Without a doubt one of the greatest combat systems of the series.

The problem with the game doesn't lie with the gameplay mechanics, it lies with the amount of content (Or rather, the type of content) the game has.

Modifié par Batman90, 15 mai 2010 - 11:54 .

[Busomjack]

Batman90 wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
 Jaguar

Oh, the horrible, horrible controller.

It's the stuff of nightmares.

Actually, as crappy as the controller was, it did work well for some games.  In Doom and Aliens VS Predator for instance you could quickly select any weapon by just pressing one of the numbers, kind of like the PC version.

Most of the games didn't even use those stupid numbers in the center of the controller anyways.  The games often game with overlays for the controller to indicate which button did what but they usually only had minimal purpose.

[Busomjack]

Batman90 wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
 Jaguar

Oh, the horrible, horrible controller.

It's the stuff of nightmares.

Final Fantasy XIII is really the modern incarnation of the FMV game genre.  The idea is to just give a spectacular audio/visual presentation and hope that the gamer will not care about the actual gameplay aspect of it.

The thing is, though, is that the gameplay--the battle system--is incredibly polished and fun. Without a doubt one of the greatest combat systems of the series.

The problem with the game doesn't lie with the gameplay mechanics, it lies with the amount of content (Or rather, the type of content) the game has.

I dissagree, I thought the battle system blowed.  Most of the time there is very little to no effort involved with the battles at all.
It's like Square/Enix realized the made the battle system so needlessly convoluted that they decided
"oh, what the Hell!  We'll just let the battles play out themselves since nobody is going to want to trod through all this crappy interface."

Like the rest of the game, the battles in Final Fantasy XIII have very little interaction.

Modifié par Busomjack, 15 mai 2010 - 11:58 .

[Seagloom]

Well, I enjoyed Super Wing Commander quite a bit. Like I wrote, I didn't own a PC and after finishing WCIII that was all there was left to sate my craving. I ate it up.



I had a Jaguar too and my library of good games was identical to yours. A shock, that is not. Tempest 2000 was the best game on that console by far. It had an amazing soundtrack for a cartridge game. The worst problem with the Jaguar was a lack of games, period. There were too few and more than half of them were awful.

[Busomjack]

The Jaguar was the worst console purchase I ever made. I was so blinded by the hype at the time I traded my Neo Geo in for one.

As soon as I saw Cybermorph I knew I had made a mistake.

[Batman90]

Busomjack wrote...

I dissagree, I thought the battle system blowed.  Most of the time there is very little to no effort involved with the battles at all.
It's like Square/Enix realized the made the battle system so needlessly convoluted that they decided
"oh, what the Hell!  We'll just let the battles practically play themselves."

Like the rest of the game, the battles in Final Fantasy XIII have very little interaction.

While the "auto-battle" feature was a bit odd, the game was still quite challenging. Far more challenging than most other "RPGs," both W and J, in fact.

The thing about the battle system is that it focused more on general party tactics than it did individual commands. You still had to know when the appropriate time to switch classes was, as well as the appropriate time to use skills/summons. In addition, FFXIII's battle system was not convoluted, but rather, simplified. In fact, it can be perfectly described as a streamlined version of the old ATB system FFIV through FFIX used (Because that's essentially what it is; it reduced the gameplay to its time-based elements, and as for stats, it got rid of MP, defense, and all other stats save for "attack," "magic" and "HP").

In addition, you cannot level up your characters to a "god-like" status as in previous FF games (For better or for worse), and even common trash mobs will take far longer and far more strategic input to kill than mobs in, say, FFVI. Grinding, at least in the later two thirds of the game, will not gaurantee success. Of course, it may be a matter of personal taste (Some people are better at certain gameplay styles than others), but from the 40-or-so hours I've put in to the game, I can safely say that it takes far more brainpower to succeed than many of the more recent offerings from the series (In addition to other contemporary action games and "RPGs").

[Seagloom]

Busomjack wrote...

The Jaguar was the worst console purchase I ever made. I was so blinded by the hype at the time I traded my Neo Geo in for one.
As soon as I saw Cybermorph I knew I had made a mistake.

I felt the same way, except I bought it outright. Trading in a Neo Geo for it must have burned. That was right before Samurai Shodown II and King of Fighters '94 released too. Yeouch.

[the_one_54321]

TheMufflon wrote...
Except there are games where you define your character and shape the outcome, and those are CRPGs.

No, there aren't. In every single video game there are a specific number of pre-defined endings which you can reach. There are no endings that are completely unique to your play-through.

[Batman90]

Busomjack wrote...

The Jaguar was the worst console purchase I ever made. I was so blinded by the hype at the time I traded my Neo Geo in for one.
As soon as I saw Cybermorph I knew I had made a mistake.

It was pretty crap. I got one around the time I got my SNES; never really touched the thing. Had a few games for it; a mediocre platformer (Starring a certain bobcat who must not be named), an ugly space shooter where you fly around low-polygon count planets blowing up things with a talking green head who was constantly annoying you, some "satanic-themed" pinball game, and some Pitfall spin-off.

Nothing memorable at all.

[Onyx Jaguar]

A satanic themed pinball game? Do want

[MaaZeus]

Batman90 wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

I dissagree, I thought the battle system blowed.  Most of the time there is very little to no effort involved with the battles at all.
It's like Square/Enix realized the made the battle system so needlessly convoluted that they decided
"oh, what the Hell!  We'll just let the battles practically play themselves."

Like the rest of the game, the battles in Final Fantasy XIII have very little interaction.

While the "auto-battle" feature was a bit odd, the game was still quite challenging. Far more challenging than most other "RPGs," both W and J, in fact.

The thing about the battle system is that it focused more on general party tactics than it did individual commands. You still had to know when the appropriate time to switch classes was, as well as the appropriate time to use skills/summons. In addition, FFXIII's battle system was not convoluted, but rather, simplified. In fact, it can be perfectly described as a streamlined version of the old ATB system FFIV through FFIX used (Because that's essentially what it is; it reduced the gameplay to its time-based elements, and as for stats, it got rid of MP, defense, and all other stats save for "attack," "magic" and "HP").

In addition, you cannot level up your characters to a "god-like" status as in previous FF games (For better or for worse), and even common trash mobs will take far longer and far more strategic input to kill than mobs in, say, FFVI. Grinding, at least in the later two thirds of the game, will not gaurantee success. Of course, it may be a matter of personal taste (Some people are better at certain gameplay styles than others), but from the 40-or-so hours I've put in to the game, I can safely say that it takes far more brainpower to succeed than many of the more recent offerings from the series (In addition to other contemporary action games and "RPGs").

As much as I am dissapointed about FFXIII overall, battle system is not one of them. Common mob can easily bypassed with autobattle, but on bigger enemies and bosses, you actually have to think, make different paradigms and build your strategies based on those. Too bad you have to get your arse kicked first before you can make a strategy against that certain enemy/boss. So its not perfect (FAAAAR FROM IT!!!!), but idea was nice experiment. It would have been nice to manually control each party member a'la old Final Fantasies AND start using Paradigm strategies if  needed. Best of both worlds! Lets face it, automated paradigms dont always produce effects YOU want at that moment, especially when it comes to buffing your party members. AI is not a human brain afterall. Manual control in some situations would have saved my arse plenty of times.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 16 mai 2010 - 12:23 .

[Busomjack]

I'll admit the paradigm shift system in Final Fantasy XIII was interesting but the battles get so repetitive and tedious. It felt like I was doing the same thing in every single battle and the Eidolons absolutely blowed.  I also hated how if anyone dies, it's fine but if Lightning dies...GAME OVER!  WTF?!
When the entire rest of the game consists of doing nothing but running down a hallway and watching cutscenes then the game better have the best combat system the world has ever seen. Final Fantasy XIII doesn't come close.

As for Cybermorph, I got to say that the game actually wasn't THAT bad. In fact, it was kind of fun for it's time. You had an open world environment where you were given a variety of objectives, some of which were fun.
The reason why the game was despised is because as a technical showpiece it was a DISASTER! The Jaguar's technical prowess was heavily hyped and seeing Cybermorph made you think it was an April Fools joke.

If Cybermorph were on the SNES, it would've been much better receieved.

Also, one game that almost nobody knows about is the sequel to Cybermorph, Battlemorph for the Atari Jaguar CD. This game was a HUGE improvement over Cybermorph. It had sharp controls, better graphics, fluid animations and an incredibly cool soundtrack.

An absolutely horrible fate that it had to be released on the Jaguar CD. I think I'm the only one who knows of this game's existence.

Modifié par Busomjack, 16 mai 2010 - 12:27 .

[Batman90]

Busomjack wrote...
 I also hated how if anyone dies, it's fine but if Lightning dies...GAME OVER!  WTF?!

Plenty of party-centered games do that. Mass Effect 1 and 2 being the most notable examples.

Ultimately, the problem with FFXIII probably lies with who Square-Enix was trying to market the game to. I honestly think they wanted to tap in to the casual audience with this game, seeing that Nintendo and other companies were able to prove that it is a profitable market. FFXIII is certainly far more of a casual experience then previous Final Fantasy games, which were marketed to the hardcore audience (The people who weren't afraid to do lengthy sidequests, quest for the ultimate weapons or max out every minor attribute).

In fact, I believe the Japanese version was marketed by being described as having "easy to navigate environments."

[Ryzaki]

Busomjack wrote...
 I also hated how if anyone dies, it's fine but if Lightning dies...GAME OVER!  WTF?!

You have obviously never played Radiata Stories.

Good god worst part is that Jack to be honest is incredibly WEAK compared to your companions. GAH! 

Or persona 3. >_<

Though at least in Persona 3 It has a pretty logical reason behind it.

Still nothing stung like going up and being a floor away from the next boss just to be killed by a bloody insta kill spell. >_>

Or ra forbid nearly beating said boss and everyone else has full health and you end up being critically killed with the rest of you HP.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 mai 2010 - 01:23 .

[Commissar Gash]

Batman90 wrote...

Disappointing game? Certainly, given the franchise's history and the amount of hype built up for it. But a bad game?

Breaking up FFXIII in to its core elements and examining it piece by piece, there's alot to love and dislike about the game. It has one of the greatest battle systems the franchise has ever witnessed, without a doubt. Yes, it is streamlined, and it is true that the game does not have the amount of gameplay-related options previous games in the series used, but it sacrificed these elements for more strategic, fast-paced combat. Indeed, it is the first Final Fantasy game to prove to be legitimately challenging since the PS1 era; while it's easy for the first few hours, unless you're a masterful gamer, you will die many, many times throughout the later two thirds of the game.

You can also have it on the Xbox and edit you save to make it easier. The biggest problem I had with this game is how easily you could be killed by an regular enemy that you have defeated without a problem in the previous battle. The bosses started to annoy me after chapter 9 (Damn you BARHTENDELUS!!!), but bosses are supposed to be hard to defeat. I had moments when I thought WHERE'S MY CAIN?!(anwser: Nukes ar banned in Japaneese games) WHY IS THAT IDIOT FIGHTING WITH HIS FISTS?! WHY DOES EVERYBODY THINK THAT MELEE>GUNS?! (answer for both: it's a JRPG)

The world, lore and general themes of the game are very interesting, but the story-telling itself is poorly executed; it lacks the personality, memorable characters and pure entertainment value that FFVI, FFVII, FFIX and FFX had. It says alot about a game's character development when you can say that the best character in the game is a man who has a little yellow bird living in his hair.

You forgot to mention that the best chracter in the game is also a classic hilarious black guy with akimbo weapons and an afro and he still has the best character development.
The Chocobo chick is my favorite character in the game. He used the Krogan headbutt on a "soldier"!

The level design is linear for the first several hours, but in all honesty, it isn't much worse than Final Fantasy X (Which is a highly popular and critically acclaimed game, mind you).

The game is a giant hallway, except the Archylyte Steppe and few other places. They could've done it better.

The sidequests are terrible, though. They are nothing more than "hunts," or track down the monster that you're told to kill and kill it (But in all honesty, is it really all too different from the majority of the Mass Effect series' sidequests, which consist of similar "go to X and kill Y" missions?).

ME1 had atleast variation, the boxes were placed differently, other enemies and some of the sidequests had an story/had something to do with the main story.

ME2 had more variation between the sidequeests, different places and enjoyed the quests.

And the ME seriest is supposed to be a Shooter/RPG and what do you do in shooters?

FFXIII has absolutely no varation in the mission and the don't have an story (I don't call that dude ordered me to kill that dude and I like it/ I hate it/ I can't do it a story)

The game opens up quite a bit after 15-to-25 hours; the overworld of Gran Pulse is quite expansive. If only you could do more than just kill tough mobs in it, though.

So yeah, if you put enough time in to examining it based on its own merits, you'll see that it's a decent game. Certainly not a bad game, but far from the best the Final Fantasy series has to offer.

I agree, the should've added some side quests with a story and give us more freedom. I liked FFXIII, but it could be much better.

I wish ME had the amount of detail FFXIII has, I'm talking about  using the FFXIII engine, not giving Sheploo pink hair (I'm sure it will look fabulous, but he's a soldier, not some young girl with a short skirt who claims to ba a commando:P).

EDIT: Oh great, now because of my post I can't get a image of Male  Shepard and Garrus with Lighting's hair, Jacob and Legion with an afro with an Chocobo in it and Miranda and Jack with Vanille's haircut out of my head.

Modifié par gashgfjaskgfkagh, 16 mai 2010 - 09:08 .

[MaaZeus]

I also hated how if anyone dies, it's fine but if Lightning
dies...GAME OVER!  WTF?!

Oh yeah, that too. It makes absolutely no sense in game like Final Fantasy! In game like Mass Effect if your hero dies its logical that you get game over because game surrounds on that character, but Final Fantasy does not have a real focus on ANY character, there are no real leaders and whatever. Why is the "squad leader ATM" so important that if s/he gets knocked out your other members cannot wake him/her up with phoenix down or renewal spells?