391 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

Oblivion absolutely is a shooter. Being in a fantasy setting and having a long story and open world does not mean it's an RPG. You are in first person and point-and-click to attack enemies. You just do it with a sword instead of a gun.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Fexelea wrote...

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

jrpgs are the reason rpgs struggle to be succesful. jrpgs are the reasons shooter games are taking over.

Jrpg target market: Japan.
Japan's dominant genre: Jrpg

Wrpg target market: NA
NA dominant genre: FPS / Sports

If Jrpgs have more awarenes in NA than Wrpgs, it is not their fault, it is the fault of the Wrpg makers that fail to understand their own target market.

They don't have more market awareness.  Bethesda's, Bioware's and Lionhead's titles since KOTOR have had more staying power on the charts than any Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest game.

You have to be Capcom/Nintendo to make it big over in the America's

[Onyx Jaguar]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Oblivion absolutely is a shooter. Being in a fantasy setting and having a long story and open world does not mean it's an RPG. You are in first person and point-and-click to attack enemies. You just do it with a sword instead of a gun.

???

So Zelda was a shooter?  Thats like saying anything that isn't turn/menu based is a shooter

[Fexelea]

Busomjack wrote...

I'm not as savvy with business terminology as you but I think good business sense would require making a product appealing to a market as large as the USAs.  Final Fantasy is the biggest JRPG name in the Western market by far and even with such name recognition it could not outsell Mass Effect 2, a franchise which has only existed since 2007 as opposed to Final Fantasy which has been a huge franchise in the USA since 1997.  It's clear that crap like Final Fantasy XIII has tarnished the franchise and if Square/Enix wants to ever enjoy the success they did with Final Fantasy VII, they'll take into consideration the very legitimate criticism that consumers have made against Final Fantasy XIII.

As I mentioned earlier, I think it is in the interest of Japanese companies to learn to attract the US consumer, however this is not the case right now. Development of games is very Japan-oriented, and recoup of investment is calculated on Japan sales. A separate budget for localization drives the break even points for foreign markets.

It is important to realize that what "should be" is not always what is. All companies should function like German ones (famous for doing half the hours and twice the work) yet they don't. In the gaming industry, the Japanese model of creating games is radically different.

A company hires you with zero or basic skills and trains you. There is one "king" in the studio that makes all the calls. The target market is culturally narrow. The development budget (and salaries accordingly) are radically smaller than western companies.

There are pros and cons to all of the above. There is no easy "solution". Going big and global and having 200 people working on a game doesn't always result in a better game. Sometimes -as Demon's Souls proves- all you need are 30 people and really not a lot of money.

[Fexelea]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

They don't have more market awareness.  Bethesda's, Bioware's and Lionhead's titles since KOTOR have had more staying power on the charts than any Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest game.

You have to be Capcom/Nintendo to make it big over in the America's

I was just posting that to highlight why it would be wrpg dev's problem if that was the case. I don't have the relevant data to make an accurate assessment as to awareness in NA (sales are not a good indicator of awareness). If it is not the case, then again geekzilla is off-base as wrpg is the one that people are more aware of therefore jrpg "gayness" as he calls it has no outweighing influence on market perceptions of the genre.

[the_one_54321]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
???

So Zelda was a shooter?  Thats like saying anything that isn't turn/menu based is a shooter

Zelda was an action, adventure, and puzzle game.
I suppose there wasn't a lot of actual "shooting" in Oblivion, but it was everything that an FPS is, minus the guns.
Genre is defined by mechanics. When a game has the mechanics of a certain genre, it doesn't matter how much it resembles some other genre.
Oblivion was an FPS because of its mechanics.
DA:O is an RPG because of its mechanics.
Starcraft was an RTS because of its mechanics.
Zelda is an action, adventure, and puzzle game becuase of its mechanics.

Some games can fit the cirteria of more than one genre. Zelda is an example. But shooters and RPGs are mutually exclusive because of their directly conflicing criteria in mechanics.

[Busomjack]

I think Capcom in particular seems to have the right idea. Several of their franchises like Devil May Cry and especially Resident Evil seem to be developed with the Western consumer in mind.

Japan's culture is the polar opposite of the USA's. While the USA is culturally pluralistic, Japan has almost no cultural diversity so it's not as easy to develop a game with Japan as the target audience and then market it to the rest of the world. That is why a lot of JRPG stereotypes come across as so silly and cliched to Western gamers.

Franchises like Resident Evil and do well enough in Japan so I think more Japanese developers should focus on what appeals to Westerners.

I wonder if the Mass Effect games were released in Japan.

[the_one_54321]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
 Bethesda's, Bioware's and Lionhead's titles since KOTOR have had more staying power on the charts than any Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest game.

You're aware that FFIV, FFVI, and a number of Dragon Quest games have been replayed over and over by fans, and even been remade and re-released due to fan demand? Same will be said of FFVII in the near future as well. Chrono Trigger has also been re-released twice because of fan demand. There are no other games out there that can claim this kind of long life and rabid fan loyalty. Except maybe Zelda and Mario.

[Onyx Jaguar]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
 Bethesda's, Bioware's and Lionhead's titles since KOTOR have had more staying power on the charts than any Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest game.

You're aware that FFIV, FFVI, and a number of Dragon Quest games have been replayed over and over by fans, and even been remade and re-released due to fan demand? Same will be said of FFVII in the near future as well. Chrono Trigger has also been re-released twice because of fan demand. There are no other games out there that can claim this kind of long life and rabid fan loyalty. Except maybe Zelda and Mario.

Yes I am aware of that.  Staying power in sales is different than staying power in fans. 

[Fexelea]

@Busomjack  Yes they were, but as Xbox games they don't stand a chance (18k copies in the first week was the best it saw, vs say the most recent Dragon Quest DS moving 250k in a week)

Uncharted 2 and God of War did quite well there actually, and Oblivion and Fallout are going very well indeed.

Modifié par Fexelea, 17 mai 2010 - 03:05 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

MASS EFFECT IN JAPAN, ON 360



Is it a straight port or did they improve engine performance?

[Fexelea]

There were some changes to the 360 version, but the main point for JP release was localizing it, I think.

[the_one_54321]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Yes I am aware of that.  Staying power in sales is different than staying power in fans.

FFVII still sells for $50+ regularly on ebay.

I love BioWare games, in fact I own most of them, but seriously, when you see a giant, call it a giant. FF is a giant.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Suikoden 2 sells for 150 dollars, I wouldn't call that a Giant. ITs due to low print + demand.

[Busomjack]

Also a lot of these JRPGs being mentioned are rather old. The resurgence of the WRPG really began with the likes of KOTOR which came out in 2003, way too early for any remakes.

[the_one_54321]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Suikoden 2 sells for 150 dollars, I wouldn't call that a Giant. ITs due to low print + demand.

And demand makes sales. The demand for FFVII is colossal. Square got more responses than they could handle when they querried their fans about doing an FFVII remake.

[Busomjack]

I don't know if I want Square/Enix remaking Final Fantasy VII. Don't get me wrong, I loved VII. It's just that after XIII I don't know if anyone at Square/Enix is even capable of making a good RPG.

[Elanareon]

Busomjack wrote...

JRPGS are made for people who care less about gaming and more about cheesy, melodramatic, anime plot lines that consist of adolescent girls and boys who look like girls saving the world by jumping into the air with impossibly large swords and creating huge explosions when they land amongst other implausible things.

This is actually somewhat true. People who play JRPGS only love the big swords, over the top acrobatics, silly costumes that they think is really cool.

For me i find that silly, they look like gay.

[Elanareon]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Suikoden 2 sells for 150 dollars, I wouldn't call that a Giant. ITs due to low print + demand.

Bah, it only seems that way because asians are like that... They can't get rid of something good in the past! I mean look at Starcraft! Even if SC2 sucks they still like it! Asians are clingy! 

Modifié par Elanareon, 17 mai 2010 - 04:24 .

[chiliztri]

Elanareon wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

I don't know if I want Square/Enix remaking Final Fantasy VII. Don't get me wrong, I loved VII. It's just that after XIII I don't know if anyone at Square/Enix is even capable of making a good RPG.

Bah, it only seems that way because asians are like that... They can't get rid of something good in the past! I mean look at Starcraft! Even if SC2 sucks they still like it! Asians are clingy! 

Um, what the hell does that have to do with being Asian? There are cultural differences, yes, but that hasn't got anything to do with being Asian, which applies to a wide range of people.

As someone who is Asian I find it highly offensive that you would even think to try and generalize an entire ethnic group and put labels on them. All Asians are clingy?

Why don't you bring some real facts instead of your hyperbolic generlized crap.

[the_one_54321]

Busomjack wrote...
I don't know if I want Square/Enix remaking Final Fantasy VII. Don't get me wrong, I loved VII. It's just that after XIII I don't know if anyone at Square/Enix is even capable of making a good RPG.

If you read the interviews that have had remaking VII as their subject, you'd want them to make it. The staff at Square is dying to make this game, and now that they have experience with the PS3 architecture, they feel they can recreate towns and world maps that will do the game justice. XIII was, if noting else, a learning experience for them.

[Busomjack]

Unless the lesson learned was how not to make an RPG, I'll pass on a Final Fantasy VII remake.

[the_one_54321]

You complain about the corridor design of the game. What they learned was how to create environments that are worthy of HD graphics. It was so time consuming that they couldn't really do it in this game without delaying production even longer. On top of that, shopping in cities wouldn't have made much sense for the plot of this game. But the story was that now that they have the experience with rendering HD areas, they feel they might be able to do things like cities, and more open areas.



As for making an RPG, the whole "JRPGs are not really RPGs" thing is a bunch of baloney. FFXIII fits the mechanical criteria of an RPG so it's an RPG. Variability/choice does not an RPG make. At least not in video games. If it did, then ME and DA:O aren't RPGs either, nor any other video game, ever. They only create the illusion/feel of choice when in fact all they offer is pre-determined options.

[Ryzaki]

/facepalm at people telling JRPGs to aim for the western market.



Should we tell WRPG makers to aim for the eastern market?



Usually its trying to please too many different groups of people that you end up with a mess in your hands.



That said if FF13 was more linear than FFX Squareenix seriously needs to step their game up.



And for the love of god. Can Persona 5 please come out already?!? D:

[Onyx Jaguar]

The only thing JRPG developers need to do is to stop cheaping it. As much as I love the Persona spinoffs they did cheap the presentation compared to Digital Devil Saga, and even in some ways Nocturne (although that had no VO and little Dialogue).



Some companies now I have little faith in though like Tri-Ace, and NIS has seem to have hit a wall.



I do not think JRPG makers need to adapt to other markets because that would lessen the charm, but what they need to do is find a way to progress into this current generation. While I like my library of DS games the offerings I have to choose from on 360 and PS3 doesn't interest me (aside from Lost Odyssey). The Wii is catching up but ehh...