391 réponses à ce sujet

[neubourn]

virumor wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Thoughts?

Pot calling kettle black.

I agree. Someone forgot to tell him that Mass Effect 2 is a TPS parading around as an RPG. You have a limited amount of customization options (just like FFXIII), its pretty heavy on story (just like FFXIII), your free roam and exploration options are also pretty limited (just like FFXIII), the only real "RPG" element that ME2 has over FFXIII is that you can create your character. Otherwise, id say they are both in the shallow end of the RPG pool.

And yes, i love both games, and own/play both.

[MaaZeus]

I agree its bit too quick to judge the whole genre because one serie has taken a nose dive, but lets face it, Final Fantasy serie is pretty much a synonym for JRPGs in the eyes of general western people. And FFXIII was not the start of the downfall, FFX was. Almost all RPGs have very linear background story, but still there is something to explore to give the sense of freedom and exploration. Squeenix used to know this in their old FF games. But now they have turned to a pipe run with NO exploration, just running from point A to point B and see the next cutscene.

FFXIII is the worst offender. As much as I tried to like that game, after getting out of cocoon I just couldnt play it anymore. Yes I saw the first "field" with jaw dropping enviroment and wildlife, but I just couldnt play it anymore and lost hope there is anything truly worth to see as the story and characters were so mediocre so far too. BTW, this isnt just western opinion, IIRC even Japanese are thinking that Squeenix went too far with the simplification.


Still FF isnt THE JRPG serie, not anymore atleast. I am now exploring other choices but it seems like Xbox360 isnt good system for JRPGs. Tales Of Vesperia was great despite its cheesyness, it had the feeling of old JRPGs with best JRPG fighting system ever, with Tales Of Symphonia that is.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 13 mai 2010 - 07:48 .

[enormousmoonboots]

MrNose wrote...

Follow up: Based on this information, I'm guessing that BioWare is going to put forward a big evolution in their game for their next RPG right?

Like, we won't have a linear opening, followed by several missions we can do in any order, followed by another linear mission, followed by a few more choices and then another linear mission? And the morality system will no longer be about Min/Maxing?

I actually like the above systems (morality still needs work, but that's a tough one to get down anyway), but you have to admit, BioWare has a formula.

Ah, here we go.

Modifié par enormousmoonboots, 13 mai 2010 - 07:48 .

[MaaZeus]

bobobo878 wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

JRPGS are made for people who care less about gaming and more about cheesy, melodramatic, anime plot lines that consist of adolescent girls and boys who look like girls saving the world by jumping into the air with impossibly large swords and creating huge explosions when they land amongst other implausible things.

It really didn't start to get bad until Final Fantasy X. That is when they got rid of the world map and basically forced players to follow one linear path. There is no sense of adventure in any of these games, it's just move, watch cutscene, fight battle, repeat.

Bioware is right. No matter how well polished a turd is, it's still a turd.

Actually for once I agree with Busom. Not with his wording, but idea is quite true. And this is coming from supporter of JRPG games.


Some people have brought ME2 as example why Bioware have no rights to mock JRPGs, and yes the simplification of RPG elements on ME2 was dissapointing compared to ME1, but its still lightyear ahead of most modern JRPGs, even old JRPGs, when it comes to making choices and affecting the story. And best thing is that ME serie wasnt even supposed to be pure RPG but a 3rd person shooter with RPG elements.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 13 mai 2010 - 07:54 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

MrNose wrote...

Follow up: Based on this information, I'm guessing that BioWare is going to put forward a big evolution in their game for their next RPG right?

Like, we won't have a linear opening, followed by several missions we can do in any order, followed by another linear mission, followed by a few more choices and then another linear mission? And the morality system will no longer be about Min/Maxing?

I actually like the above systems (morality still needs work, but that's a tough one to get down anyway), but you have to admit, BioWare has a formula.

Ah, here we go.

The problem with that chart is that it can be applied to pretty much anything

[Busomjack]

It's not just a lack of evolution. In many ways JRPGs have even taken a step back from their predecessors.

It used to be fun and rewarding exploring the world, finding towns and extras exploring the world by foot, airship or whatever.

That is all gone now. Hell, we don't even get towns anymore. If Square/Enix wants to make their flagship franchise more cinematic they should just go ahead and make a movie.

[Onyx Jaguar]

That is only Final Fantasy, assuming the faults of Final Fantasy ignores all of the other JRPGs

[Busomjack]

Only other JRPG I have played recently(other than Demon's Souls which I loved) was Lost Odyssey. I hated the game. The gameplay was so stale and derivative. I can't believe in this day of age that there are STILL random battles in games.

The storyline sucked too. After being spoiled by Bioware where I get to take an active role in the storyline and where my opinions actually matter I can't stand just sitting back and having no say over anything.

[MerinTB]

That interview...

wow.

Arrogance, thy name is Greg.

I love BioWare's games.  I love that BioWare is getting more recognition and can do more projects.

I don't like the ego that this makes me think the heads of the company have.

BioWare neither invented the RPG or cRPG, nor did it PERFECT the RPG or cRPG.  It makes a certain KIND OF cRPG, and that's that.  It's a kind I happen to like, but I also happen to like FF XIII.  Yes, you can like both.  It's like enjoying classical music AND enjoying rock, or a Shakespeare play AND a screwball comedy film.

Wow.  What he says is wrong on so many levels.

RPG != choices

I'm not getting into my "what makes an RPG an RPG" rant here right now, but suffice it to say that there are many elements that are part of RPGs but NONE that are essential.  Choices, dialog, multiple endings - those are elements, and not one is essential.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Busomjack wrote...

Only other JRPG I have played recently(other than Demon's Souls which I loved) was Lost Odyssey. I hated the game. The gameplay was so stale and derivative. I can't believe in this day of age that there are STILL random battles in games.
The storyline sucked too. After being spoiled by Bioware where I get to take an active role in the storyline and where my opinions actually matter I can't stand just sitting back and having no say over anything.

That I'll have to respectfully disagree with: I found Lost Odyssey to be pretty much the best post-SNES "JRPG".

[MaaZeus]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Only other JRPG I have played recently(other than Demon's Souls which I loved) was Lost Odyssey. I hated the game. The gameplay was so stale and derivative. I can't believe in this day of age that there are STILL random battles in games.
The storyline sucked too. After being spoiled by Bioware where I get to take an active role in the storyline and where my opinions actually matter I can't stand just sitting back and having no say over anything.

That I'll have to respectfully disagree with: I found Lost Odyssey to be pretty much the best post-SNES "JRPG".

Thanks for the unintended recommendation. I have to check that out then. It IS available on Xbox360 yes?

[Kaiser Shepard]

MaaZeus wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Only other JRPG I have played recently(other than Demon's Souls which I loved) was Lost Odyssey. I hated the game. The gameplay was so stale and derivative. I can't believe in this day of age that there are STILL random battles in games.
The storyline sucked too. After being spoiled by Bioware where I get to take an active role in the storyline and where my opinions actually matter I can't stand just sitting back and having no say over anything.

That I'll have to respectfully disagree with: I found Lost Odyssey to be pretty much the best post-SNES "JRPG".

Thanks for the unintended recommendation. I have to check that out then. It IS available on Xbox360 yes?

Yes, in fact it's a 360-exclusive. I'd recommend having an HDD to install it on, though, because the loading times without can be pretty bad. The story is without a doubt one the best I've seen in the genre so far, and feels like something BioWare would come up with were they to create a linear game in this kind of setting.

MerinTB wrote...
RPG != choices

I'm not getting into my "what makes an RPG an RPG" rant here right now, but suffice it to say that there are many elements that are part of RPGs but NONE that are essential.  Choices, dialog, multiple endings - those are elements, and not one is essential.

Please do, because I'd say the actual ability to roleplay is more important that, let's say, a bunch of stats.

[chiliztri]

MerinTB wrote...

That interview...

wow.

Arrogance, thy name is Greg.

I love BioWare's games.  I love that BioWare is getting more recognition and can do more projects.

I don't like the ego that this makes me think the heads of the company have.

BioWare neither invented the RPG or cRPG, nor did it PERFECT the RPG or cRPG.  It makes a certain KIND OF cRPG, and that's that.  It's a kind I happen to like, but I also happen to like FF XIII.  Yes, you can like both.  It's like enjoying classical music AND enjoying rock, or a Shakespeare play AND a screwball comedy film.

Wow.  What he says is wrong on so many levels.

RPG != choices

I'm not getting into my "what makes an RPG an RPG" rant here right now, but suffice it to say that there are many elements that are part of RPGs but NONE that are essential.  Choices, dialog, multiple endings - those are elements, and not one is essential.

I agree with you Merin, on every point.

[MaaZeus]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...


Yes, in fact it's a 360-exclusive. I'd recommend having an HDD to install it on, though, because the loading times without can be pretty bad. The story is without a doubt one the best I've seen in the genre so far, and feels like something BioWare would come up with were they to create a linear game in this kind of setting.

Cool. I have Elite version so yes I have HDD already. This game will be on my summer holiday to-do list then. *edit* Heh, found it for 20€ including shipping fee special offer. Took a bite.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 13 mai 2010 - 09:10 .

[MrNose]

MessyPossum wrote...
Not to pull out the old adage of apples to oranges bit, but... apples and oranges. We are two very different cultures featuring two very different gaming preferences.

This.  Compare Dragon Warrior, Pokemon, Monster Hunter, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, and Megami Tensei.  These are all very different games, but if you look at the games in the Franchise, they're all very similar.  Why?  Because the Japanese design games to replicate what they think people liked about the last game, and only tweak minor things that they think could be improved. 

Square Enix makes a bunch of different types of RPGs, and I would argue that The World Ends With You can be called an evolution; they just don't make games that are different within a single franchise.  As I said earlier, people play every new Pokemon game for the same reason they played the last one, they don't want it to change.  What you call "stagnation" they call "preservation." 

There's a rationale for this, and one only has to look at these forums to see it.  How much of the complaining about Mass Effect 2 is about how different it is from ME1?  How it's no longer a real RPG because they simplified the elements and stuff like that?  Mass Effect 2 was about trying to evolve to connect with a broader audience over the first one; JRPGs tend to be about satisfying the same core audience over and over, and hopefully upgrading the experience enough so that their overall audience can keep growing.  I like both, and I like Mass Effect 2 a heck of alot, but geeez people.

[Busomjack]

Monster Hunter counts as an RPG? Well I guess Monster Hunter Tri should count as another exception to my otherwise loathing of the JRPG genre.

It's not a great game but it's a fun little distraction.

[Garuda One]

I agree Final Fantasy 13 is the least RPG I've seen in awhile. Not saying other RPG's just that one and slightly all the other ones as well.

Ever Final Fantasy game has you walking down a straight line, yes BioWare games have you do that as well but you can decide what path you will take. BioWare has a huge tree of pathways to take.

Final Fantasy has nothing. It is nothing. Id say Final Fantasy is more of an Adventure game then a RPG.

Japan are Xenophobic closed minded society, in this society though there are some that have some of the greatest ideas but are never put out because they can't see past there nose in that change is good.

Modifié par Garuda One, 13 mai 2010 - 09:19 .

[enormousmoonboots]

Garuda One wrote...

Ever Final Fantasy game has you walking down a straight line, yes BioWare games have you do that as well but you can decide what path you will take. BioWare has a huge tree of pathways to take.

So do you want to be an **** or a saint? Because those are your roleplaying choices. As for story choices, do you want to partner with Cerberus to fight the Reapers, or partner with Cerberus to fight the Reapers?

"Ah ha," you may say. "It's not like that because I'm a Paragade and I roleplay my Shepard as a fully-realized yadda yadda!"

That's not in the game.

Roleplaying and building your own character is a nice bonus, not something the game is built around. The game forces your choices and at any time your own character might be contradicted by the canon. It's an illusion of choice, not true freedom. If you really believe that a 'huge tree of pathways' comes down to option A or option B, with no third/fourth choice or option to make your own decision, you've never played a real role-playing game with a good DM.

[Busomjack]

Well in Final Fantasy XIII you don't even get a choice A or choice B. You're forced to just watch the game play out exactly as the writer's intended.

It would help if Final Fantasy XIII's storyline was in the least bit memorable but the exposition in the game is so poorly told that I feel like I'm playing a part 2 in a series where I missed out on the first and have no idea what in the Hell is going on.

[CRISIS1717]

lol get real noobs, just because you don't like that type of game doesn't make it any less rpg than your favourite rpg.

[enormousmoonboots]

IMO, FF13 is a bad game, period. The world's empty (if nothing else, it convinced me of how essential sidequests are to an RPG), the combat's dull (not enough control to truly program your teammates like 12, stuck relying on basic AI with no customization), and it's extremely grind-heavy. Which, because of points one and two, kills it because there's nothing to really grind for--the battle system's not fun and the world's not interesting. It could have a godlike plot and I still wouldn't care. The graphics are nice, I guess? All flash, no substance.

I hate that it's becoming the new face of JRPGs. Older FF games at least had interesting sidequests (I don't care how much you hate Sephiroth, FF7 had a crazy amount of awesome minigames/sidequests/random stuff), battles that were entertaining enough*, some actual worldbuilding--FF13 is just boring.

* Here's the thing: 13's battles are supposed to be this big dramatic affair (you're even fully healed after them), with cutscenes just to change battle roles and star-ratings and wild camera angles. Which is all well and good--until you realize you're going to have to do this five thousand times. Earlier FFs had simpler battle systems. I can see why someone would find them boring, but they're very good for getting the job done. Enter battle, attack, kill enemies, recieve XP and items. No micromanaging or sitting back to watch a cutscene necessary. By making the battles so damn dramatic, FF13 hypes them up, then kills it with overexposure. Imagine Shadow of the Colossus, except with five thousand enemies and 99% of them are palette swaps.

Modifié par enormousmoonboots, 13 mai 2010 - 09:56 .

[Busomjack]

I think my issue with Final Fantasy XIII is not that I don't think it's a "true RPG." My problem is that beneath all the flash, production values and the pretentious, poorly told storyline there is barely anything actually resembling a game.



I could care less about whether or not something can be classified as a "true RPG".



Hell, I think Mass Effect 2 is a much better game than it's predecessor even though it's more like Gears of War with RPG elements. All that matters is whether or not I'm playing a quality game.

Final Fantasy XIII barely qualifies as a game to begin with.

[A Killing Sound]

Regardless of how you feel about games like Final Fantasy, it is unprofessional to slam the genre, provided how certain influential Japanese titles opened up the RPG market to a more mainstream audience back in the mid/late 90's. Competition breeds better games. You may not like Final Fantasy to Bioware games, but everyone can agree that games like Final Fantasy push western developers to top it, and in effect, make Mass Effect and Dragon Age look that much better than its Japanese counterparts.

[Tirigon]

Sorry about the noob question, but what exactly IS a JRPG?