391 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

It's not about the style or the colors. That's all based on concept art. I'm talking about the quality and detail of the animation. FF13 leaves most other games in the dust, including all of BioWares.

[Wicked 702]

gmartin40 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's not about the style or the colors. That's all based on concept art. I'm talking about the quality and detail of the animation. FF13 leaves most other games in the dust, including all of BioWares.

Has nothing on Jade Empire, Neverwinter Nights, DA:O, Baldur's Gate, etc...

Such a brilliant refutation! You sir, have convinced me.

......yutz.

/sarcasm

[TheMufflon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's not about the style or the colors. That's all based on concept art.

Of course it's about the style and colours, what's the point of having good graphics if you have bad graphical design? Also, I don't see what the style and concept art being based on concept art has to do with anything. Having bad concept art doesn't excuse having bad art style...

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Interactive story = heavy rain

Do you consider Heavy Rain an RPG?

Interactive story = visual novels

If you've ever played visual novels. Do you consider those RPGs?

I haven't played Heavy Rain, so I make no judgements as to it's nature.

A visual novel isn't an interactive story. A comic is a visual novel, and comics are decidedly uninteractive.

And you've never played a japanese visual novel. Those *are* interactive stories. They're pratically choose your own adventure books. Which while interactive (to an extent) or sure in heck not RPGs.

You equated visual novels with interactive stories. I pointed out that not all visual novels are interactive, thus proving you wrong.

Choose Your Own Adventure books cannot be role-playing games because they are not games.

And because they all aren't interactive thus the ones that are can't be considered RPGs? 

Some visual novels aren't interactive, thus no visual novels can be considered RPGs.

There's a train of logic here that isn't quite right.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 01:24 .

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Frankly I believe all games with very few exceptions are RPGs because you're playing a role. Influencing the storyline is just extra.

If you can't interact with the story you can't play a role.

Uh yes you can. If you are playing a certain character dialogue or choices or not if you control them, move them around, choose their weapons and the like to me you're playing a role.

This whole : "its only a RPG if you have dialogue options and can change the story!" is ridculous. That may be a *type* of RPG but it certainly isn't the end all and be all.

And for the most part JRPGs do have those dialogue options (most don't influence the endings that much) so they're RPGs anyway.

Also you're proving my some visual novels can be RPGs point.

You can interact with the story in some (many) visual novels.

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...
And because they all aren't interactive thus the ones that are can't be RPGs? 

Because they arn't all interactive they cannot be equated with interactive novels. Thus Interactive story =/= visual novel.

Uh yes you can. If you are playing a certain character dialogue
or choices or not if you control them, move them around, choose their
weapons and the like to me you're playing a role.

By that defenition all  video games are RPGs.

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Because they arn't all interactive they cannot be equated with interactive novels. Thus Interactive story =/= visual novel.

Did I every say the were *all* interactive stories? I could have sworn I said *some* were. And that those that were weren't considered RPGs.

Heck Molyneux apparently doesn't consider Fable 3 an complete RPG and I'm pretty sure you're going to be able to influence the story and since that's enough to make something an RPG...

Also if we use the influencing the story as a rally point for RPGs plenty of JRPGs can be considered "true" RPGs.

By that defenition all  video games are RPGs.

And no. Tetris doesn't fit into that mold. So no. Not all video games. Alot. But not all.
Why do people act as though there is something wrong with that. Most video games are to an extent RPGs.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 01:44 .

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Did I every say the were *all* interactive stories? I could have sworn I said *some* were. And that those that were weren't considered RPGs.

Ryzaki wrote...

Interactive story = visual novels

No, you cleary stated that all interactive stories were visual novels and that all visual novels were interactive stories.

Heck Molyneux apparently doesn't consider Fable 3 an RPG and I'm pretty sure you're going to be able to influence the story.

Peter Molyneux is just doing what he's always doing: Hyping.The fact that he claim a game will be 'genre-defying' and whatnot doesn't mean anything.

And no. Tetris doesn't fit into that mold. So no. Not all video games. Alot. But not all.

No, by your defenition even tetris would be an RPG. You play the role of the guy who stacks bricks, you're free to decide where and how you stack those bricks.

Why do people act as though there is something wrong with that.

Because there is. If all games were CRPGs the term CRPG would be meangless, which it clearly isn't. There are a set of games which are considered to be CRPGs and a set of games that are not, the controversy is simply over whether which group a subset belongs belongs to.

I posit that the only appropriate way to define CRPG is by the word itself: A Video game in which you play a character, and to actually play a character you must be able to interact with the plot in which that character exists, as opposed to just shooting/slashing/invading/stacking things while the story goes on around you.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 15 mai 2010 - 02:04 .

[Eshaye]

TheMufflon wrote...

Whether MMORPGs really are CRPGs or not is debatable. While it certainly is possible to role-play within an MMORPG to a much larger extent than in a single player CRPG, most players do not play them as CRPGS. Thus I argue that MMORPGs are a category of games apart from both western and Japanese CRPG, and thus irrelevant to this discussion.

I really wanted to reply to you but you know you just miss the entire point, again, sadly. /shrug

Sleepicub09 wrote...

it looks like a secret fight that's not so much of a secret to me.


 Square Enix says Wrpg's give too much freedom
http://kotaku.com/54...western-reviews
Bioware says Jrpg's don't give enough freedom
http://www.destructo...n--155782.phtml

lol I was going to bring this up!! 

[TheMufflon]

Eshaye wrote...

I really wanted to reply to you but you know you just miss the entire point, again, sadly. /shrug

You were making a point? I'm asking because it looked like all you were doing was copy-pasting an article from Wikipedia without reading it in it's entirety.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 15 mai 2010 - 02:06 .

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

No, you cleary stated that all interactive stories were visual novels and that all visual novels were interactive stories.

Ah I forgot to put the some qualifier in there. I meant some visual novels were interactive stories. (Most of them from what I've seen) and comics to me are comics not VNs so I get confused when people mix the two).

No, by your defenition even tetris would be an RPG. You play the role of the guy who stacks bricks, you're free to decide where and how you stack those bricks.

There is no guy. Where are you coming from with that. There is no story at all in Tetris you just build blocks. For all we know it could be a goat. No one tells you anything. As there is no story there is no role to play thus it can't be a role playing game or you'd be roleplaying while playing a basketball game.

Edit: correction heck you can roleplay more in a sports game than you can Tetris.

Because there is. If all games were CRPGs the term CRPG would be meangless, which it clearly isn't. There are a set of games which are considered to be CRPGs and a set of games that are not, the controversy is simply over whether which group a subset belongs belongs to.

I posit that the only appropriate way to define CRPG is by the word itself: A Video game in which you play a character, and to actually play a character you must be able to interact with the plot in which that character exists, as opposed to just shooting/slashing/invading/stacking things while the story goes on around you.

Most games have you playing the role of a character however .That doesn't make the word meaningless it just means it covers a broad amount of games. Just because you can change the endings and pick dialogue options does not an RPG make or a lot more games would be RPGs. Genre definitions truthfully come from what the game does best in my opinion. Halo is to me an RPG however its main focus and strongpoint is a Shooter therefore instead it will be marketed and labeled as such. Where's something that focuses mainly on the plot and character interaction would be an RPG.

Heck are their not simulation games where you influence the plot by going to certain areas at certain times? Since you infuence the plot are playing an RPG?

That's probably why RPG =/= making decisions within the storyline. There's other things that make up an RPG having one of those factors doesn't make an RPG but having multiple do.

Or at least that's why that's considered the standard definition of a RPG. I obviously don't follow the standard definition.

Though these whole "OMG I'm the true RPG maker!" Square and BW are bouncing back and forth make them look like 5 year olds. Face it there are different types of RPGs. Get over it. The world isn't going to explode because a game different than the ones you make are considered the same genre. <_<

Also once again. Many JRPGs you do interact with side characters maybe minmally but you *do* interact. Thus Radiata Stories, Star Ocean (all of them), KH 1 & 2, Suikoden, and many others all count as RPGs. >_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 02:17 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I think we either need to stop using the term RPG in relation to video games or hard define it from its video game origins and not its analogue origins.

[Ryzaki]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I think we either need to stop using the term RPG in relation to video games or hard define it from its video game origins and not its analogue origins.

Truth its impossible at the present moment for any video game to be a true RPG. You will always hit some barrier that makes true roleplaying impossible. So this whole "my goat is faster than your goat!" when you're trying to meet the pace of a cheetah is silly.

[TheMufflon]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I think we either need to stop using the term RPG in relation to video games or hard define it from its video game origins and not its analogue origins.

I wholeheartedly agree. I prefer to use the term CRPGs for single player video games, because they are fundamentally different from actual RPGs.

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I think we either need to stop using the term RPG in relation to video games or hard define it from its video game origins and not its analogue origins.

I wholeheartedly agree. I prefer to use the term CRPGs for single player video games, because they are fundamentally different from actual RPGs.

So you consider JRPGs as CRPGs right?

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

So you consider JRPGs as CRPGs right?

Only some of them, which is why I object to the genre being called JRPGs.

[Sleepicub09]

I don't even try to define an rpg anymore; it can't be described.

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Halo is to me an RPG however its main focus and strongpoint is a Shooter therefore instead it will be marketed and labeled as such.

Halo is not a role-playing game, because the story is something that goes on around you and your character is played for you. You are not given the ability to define your character, all you do is shoot things.

I wrote a longer answer to your post, but that pretty much summed it up.

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Halo is to me an RPG however its main focus and strongpoint is a Shooter therefore instead it will be marketed and labeled as such.

Halo is not a role-playing game, because the story is something that goes on around you and your character is played for you. You are not given the ability to define your character, all you do is shoot things.

I wrote a longer answer to your post, but that pretty much summed it up.

Eh. As far as I can tell however RPG doesn't have a set definition. And being able to choose a few dialogue options in my opinion do not an RPG make.

You don't have to define your charactet to role play but rather play a defined character. You play a role. You don't always get the luxury of choosing said role but you do play it. In Halo you are Master Chief. You are no one other than Master Chief. You play as Master Chief. So you're role playing.

There's nothing complicated about it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 02:42 .

[Noir201]

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's not about the style or the colors. That's all based on concept art. I'm talking about the quality and detail of the animation. FF13 leaves most other games in the dust, including all of BioWares.

Sorry, but if you think ff13 leaves other better rpgs like dragon age, shadow hearts : covenant, and few others to dust, then i question your perception on what makes a great rpg.

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

You don't have to define your character to role play but rather play a defined character.

Your character is defined based on his actions, you define the character by making decisions. If you don't make the decisions the character is being played for you.

You play a role. You don't always get the luxury of choosing said role but you do play it. In Halo you are Master Chief. You are no one other than Master Chief. You play as Master Chief.

Do you? Do you really? When I play Halo I don't play as Master Chief. I play as myself shooting aliens and while I do, there's a story about Master Chief going on around me. To that story I am just a passive observer and Master Chief is a character defined and 'played' by the game.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 15 mai 2010 - 02:54 .

[Vahe]

I'm sure this has been said hundreds of times before, but JRPGs are trash. It's written to be enjoyed by 12 year olds. There's no intelligent dialogue.

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You don't have to define your character to role play but rather play a defined character.

Your character is defined based on his actions, you define the character by making decisions. If you don't make the decisions the character is being played for you.

Once again. All RPGs do this even BW games. I can't make my character attack Duncan. At that point am I no longer playing the character? I can't make my character other than the origins alotted to me. Am I no longer roleplaying? Restricting options to one doesn't make it any less of a roleplaying game to me. You are still not being yourself.

Also: Every JRPG I've ever played has had some measure of dialogue options. So I'd say a majority of JRPGs probably do fall into the CRPG genre. Just because you can't choose your gender or looks doesn't change the fact that in many JRPGs (all the ones I've played) you can choose stats and abilites and that is the character.

Do you? Do you really? When I play Halo I don't play as Master Chief. I play as myself shooting aliens and while I do, there's a story about Master Chief going on around me. To that story I am just a passive observer and Master Chief is a character defined and 'played' by the game.

And every game does that to an extent. When you play Mass Effect do you choose exactly what Shepard says and his tone of voice? No. Halo simply removes more of the options from you.

And isn't the MPC who happens to be shooting the gun Master Chief? You are master chief. You may not place any imput during convos but you are controlling his actions while shooting aliens. Therefore you're roleplaying. You choose what MC is fighting with, you choose how he dispatches your enemies. You're roleplaying maybe not as you'd like but you're still roleplaying.

If you're shooting aliens you're not a passive observer. You're actually doing something.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 03:23 .

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

And every game does that to an extent. When you play Mass Effect do you choose exactly what Shepard says and his tone of voice? 

No. I, just like everyone else who playes ME, only choose a summary of what Shepard says. While I would have prefered to pick the entier frace and tone of voice, I am still inerteracting with the story. I'm not just passively observing Shepard, I'm directing him by means of the game's interface, thus I define Shepard within my own game and therefore I play the role of Shepard.

If you're shooting aliens you're not a passive observer. You're actually doing something.

My point is that the gameplay is divorced from the story, while you still need to go through the gameplay to get the story, they do not actually affect one another.