391 réponses à ce sujet

[TheMufflon]

Please don't add additional information by editing your post, it makes replying a bit confusing. Please make new posts with the information instead.

Ryzaki wrote...

Once again. All RPGs do this even BW games. I can't make my character attack Duncan. At that point am I no longer playing the character? I can't make my character other than the origins alotted to me. Am I no longer roleplaying? Restricting options to one doesn't make it any less of a roleplaying game to me. You are still not being yourself.

You don't need infinite options to interact with the story, you just need options. I would say that more options are better, and that there is a line where the options are either so few or so insignificant that the game can no longer be called a CRPG.

Just because you can't choose your gender or looks doesn't change the fact that in many JRPGs (all the ones I've played) you can choose stats and abilites and that is the character.

The thing is that, in all the JRPGs I've played (which honestly isn't all that many, since I generally don't care for them) those stats have no effect on the story. They are simply gameplay mechanics, just like a weapon in Halo, thus they do not allow you to interact with the story and do not make the game a CRPG.

Halo simply removes more of the options from you.

No, Halo removes all of the options.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 15 mai 2010 - 03:39 .

[Ryzaki]

[quote]TheMufflon wrote...

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

And every game does that to an extent. When you play Mass Effect do you choose exactly what Shepard says and his tone of voice? 
[/quote]

No. I, just like everyone else who playes ME, only choose a summary of what Shepard says. While I would have prefered to pick the entier frace and tone of voice, I am still inerteracting with the story. I'm not just passively observing Shepard, I'm directing him by means of the game's interface, thus I define Shepard within my own game and therefore I play the role of Shepard.[/quote]

And you do not do that while controlling Master Chief in combat?

[quote]
If you're shooting aliens you're not a passive observer. You're actually doing something.
[/quote]

My point is that the gameplay is divorced from the story, while you still need to go through the gameplay to get the story, they do not actually affect one another.

[/quote]

However gameplay is exactly what makes a game a game. A good game relies on gameplay to be interesting and engagin.

Also if you're controlling Master Chief through gameplay you're still playing him. You're playing his role in the story. Just because you have a lack of a dialogue wheel doesn't mean you aren't playing him.

You are however not playing YOU which is the difference between Halo and ME. Mass Effect You're supposed to the role of commander Shepard. In ME you have a variety of choices in Halo you only have one. That doesn't make it any less of a role.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 03:41 .

[Mercuron]

Almost every game is an RPG to some degree, the only reason the others are called, shooters, platformers or racers is to highlight their focus.

'RPG' as a label is to me, a game that attempts to put focus on the story and/or characters more than a particular aspect of gameplay. JRPGs and WRPGs both do this; the degree to which the player directs plot points and dialog comes across to me as a style thing, rather than a core principle of the genre.

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Please don't add additional information by editing your post, it makes replying a bit confusing. Please make new posts with the information instead.

Eh. I'm used to boards that get irritated when you post to often because it makes a whole lot of clutter.

You don't need infinite options to interact with the story, you just need options. I would say that more options are better, and that there is a line where the options are either so few or so insignificant that the game can no longer be called a CRPG.

You have options in Halo. You have the option to change Master Chief's weapons and how he kills your enemies. An option is still an option even if its not the option you'd like. You are interacting with the story (are the combat scenes suddenly not part of the game anymore? ) 

The thing is that, in all the JRPGs I've played (which honestly isn't all that many, since I generally don't care for them) those stats have no effect on the story. They are simply gameplay mechanics, just like a weapon in Halo, thus they do not allow you to interact with the story and do not make the game a CRPG.

As someone who has played plenty of JRPGs for the most part the ones I've played tended to half alternate endings and places were you could choose what the MPC said to someone else. So I suppose JRPGs would be RPGs in your view. As I haven't played FF13 I don't know how RPGish it is. FFX however has said dialogue options and sidequests and does FF8 and FF7. (And so does Crisis Core come to think of it...)

The stats having no effect on the story doesn't mean you don't control the character while applying those stats.  Gameplay is a part of a video game. And your role is simply the MPC. You may not like the forced path but you're still playing a role. The only way you wouldn't be roleplaying in a video game is if you were playing yourself.

No, Halo removes all of the options.

No Halo removes all of the options except for the forced path. You aren't forced to use certain weapons all the time nor are you forced to attack in certain ways.

As long as the game doesn't play itself you always have a chance to roleplay.

Mercuron wrote...

Almost every game is an RPG to
some degree, the only reason the others are called, shooters,
platformers or racers is to highlight their focus.
'RPG' as a
label is to me, a game that attempts to put focus on the story and/or
characters more than a particular aspect of gameplay. JRPGs and WRPGs
both do this; the degree to which the player directs plot points and
dialog comes across to me as a style thing, rather than a core principle
of the genre.

This.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 03:56 .

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...
And you do not do that while controlling Master Chief in combat?

Master Chief exists only within the story, what I controll is the game's interface. Just like when I play Tetris.

However gameplay is exactly what makes a game a game. A good game relies on gameplay to be interesting and engagin.

Of course, I'm not arguing that Halo isn't a game. What I am saying is that for a game to be a CRPG you must be able to interact with the story by having the story be a part of the gameplay instead of something that just goes on around you.

Also if you're controlling Master Chief through gameplay you're still playing him. You're playing his role in the story. Just because you have a lack of a dialogue wheel doesn't mean you aren't playing him.

No, I'm just shooting aliens. Master Chief is being played for me. You yourself said that Tetris is not a CRPG

You are however not playing YOU which is the difference between Halo and ME. Mass Effect You're supposed to the role of commander Shepard. In ME you have a variety of choices in Halo you only have one. That doesn't make it any less of a role.

No, but it means I'm not playing the role.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 15 mai 2010 - 03:56 .

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And you do not do that while controlling Master Chief in combat?

Master Chief exists only within the story, what I controll is the game's interface. Just like when I play Tetris.

However gameplay is exactly what makes a game a game. A good game relies on gameplay to be interesting and engagin.

Of course, I'm not arguing that Halo isn't a game. What I am saying is that for a game to be a CRPG you must be able to interact with the story by having the story be a part of the gameplay instead of something that just goes on around you.

Also if you're controlling Master Chief through gameplay you're still playing him. You're playing his role in the story. Just because you have a lack of a dialogue wheel doesn't mean you aren't playing him.

No, I'm just shooting aliens. Master Chief is being played for me. You yourself said that Tetris is not a CRPG

You are however not playing YOU which is the difference between Halo and ME. Mass Effect You're supposed to the role of commander Shepard. In ME you have a variety of choices in Halo you only have one. That doesn't make it any less of a role.

No, but it means I'm not playing the role.

So you don't consider Pokemon an RPG? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 04:00 .

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

The stats having no effect on the story doesn't mean you don't control the character while applying those stats

The character exists only within the story. If the stats do not affect the story, they cannot affect the character. They're just a series of numbers that govern the gameplay

No Halo removes all of the options except for the forced path.

If you only have a forced path, you have no options.

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

So you don't consider Pokemon an RPG? 

I consider Pokémon to be a franchise, which contains (among other things) video games. I've only played one such game (Pokémon Blue) and I do not consider it to be a CRPG.

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So you don't consider Pokemon an RPG? 

I consider Pokémon to be a franchise, which contains (among other things) video games. I've only played one such game (Pokémon Blue) and I do not consider it to be a CRPG.

Yeah its an RPG. You're playing the role of a trainer.

Roleplaying games does not need dialogue options to be roleplaying that is simply a certain style of an RPG not the genre as a whole similar to how all shooters are not FPS its merely one of the styles. Since you seem to not consider Pokemon to be an RPG we're not going to come to any sort of agreement on what an RPG is.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 04:15 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yeah that would be like saying the original VG RPGs are not RPGs, Rogue, Ultima and Wizardry

[Fexelea]

I think the core of RPGs are stats. I don't believe that having only 1 aspect of the many aspects that can and do comprise Rpgs is enough to qualify as one, nor do I think the opposite.



For me, an rpg has a number of the following:



*Customizable Stats: Not necesarily classes but a differentiation in the leveling paths that focus on things like strength, agility or intelligence.

* Customizable Equipment: Make or buy different accessories, armor, weapons, etc

* Story: This is where I find the biggest divide between J and W. I enjoy influencing the story's outcome and I enjoy the choice between good and evil, but I also enjoy the linear path for a predetermined hero.

*Party: Having a party and customizing their stats and equipment.

*Quests: Having a variety of quests that enrich and or have nothing to do with the story.



So how do I differentiate between an RPG and an action/adventure game? You have multiple weapons in ninja gaiden for example, and you can level them up, that this make it an rpg? No, because the focus of the game is not on this and there are no other aspects.



How about Demon's Souls then? It has the customizable stats, the forging of weapons, the quests and the good vs evil, but the game focuses on gameplay: so it's an action rpg.



How about White Knight Chronicles? You are stuck in a linear story that you have no power upon. But you can make your character, choose your stats, customize your weapons and do quests plenty, so it is an rpg focused on development rather than story.



Etcetc.

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Roleplaying games does not need dialogue options to be roleplaying that is simply a certain style of an RPG not the genre as a whole similar to how all shooters are not FPS its merely one of the styles. Since you seem to not consider Pokemon to be an RPG we're not going to come to any sort of agreement on what an RPG is.

For a game to be a CRPG your actions must be able to affect the story. Dialogue options is just the most common way of doing it. For example: In Deus Ex there is a scene in which JC is attacked by Anna Navarre, and you can either kill her or run away. This decision affects the story after that point. Pokémon Blue does not have allow for enough interaction with the story to be considered a CRPG.

Fexelea wrote...
I think the core of RPGs are stats.

I think this comes from a faulty reasoning. CRPGs got their name because they were like D&D, which is an RPG. But D&D is not an RPG because it has 'stats', there were several RPGs before D&D that didn't have 'stats'. Thus to say that the defining characteristic of CRPGs is that they have stats would seem incorrect.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 15 mai 2010 - 04:45 .

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Roleplaying games does not need dialogue options to be roleplaying that is simply a certain style of an RPG not the genre as a whole similar to how all shooters are not FPS its merely one of the styles. Since you seem to not consider Pokemon to be an RPG we're not going to come to any sort of agreement on what an RPG is.

For a game to be a CRPG your actions must be able to affect the story. Dialogue options is just the most common way of doing it. For example: In Deus Ex there is a scene in which JC is attacked by Anna Navarre, and you can either kill her or run away. This decision affects the story after that point. Pokémon Blue does not have allow for enough interaction with the story to be considered a CRPG.

Fexelea wrote...
I think the core of RPGs are stats.

I think this comes from a faulty reasoning. CRPGs got their name because they were like D&D, which is an RPG. But D&D is not an RPG because it has 'stats', there were several RPGs before D&D that didn't have 'stats'. Thus to say that the defining characteristic of CRPGs is that they have stats would seem incorrect.

Okay we're going in circles. An RPG doesn't have to have you affecting the story. You only need to play a role. And we're really not going to convince the other at this point because Pokemon in my eyes is the first RPG I've ever played. According to you because there are no dialogue options and you can't change the story its not an RPG. Which to me makes no sense because you're trying to fit a whole genre into a small section of said genre.

[Fexelea]

TheMufflon wrote...

Fexelea wrote...
I think the core of RPGs are stats.

I think this comes from a faulty reasoning. CRPGs got their name because they were like D&D, which is an RPG. But D&D is not an RPG because it has 'stats', there were several RPGs before D&D that didn't have 'stats'. Thus to say that the defining characteristic of CRPGs is that they have stats would seem incorrect.

Maybe if you read my entire post and try to understand the context you wouldn't categorize faulty reasoning when what I outlined is rather logical.

I did not say that the "defining characteristic" of cprgs is anything. I said stats are what I find as a core of the genre, in its modern inception. However, like everything. A has B, C has B, therefore C is A is a fallacy. One item alone does not comprise the genre.

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

An RPG doesn't have to have you affecting the story. You only need to play a role.

How can you play a role without affecting the story?

[TheMufflon]

Fexelea wrote...

Maybe if you read my entire post and try to understand the context you wouldn't categorize faulty reasoning when what I outlined is rather logical.

My argument applies to the rest of your post as well. The things you listed that  a CRPGs must have some of were: Customizable stats, customizable equipment, story, party and quests. I posit that the video game genre of CRPGs got their name and defenition from their non-digital forebearers, the RPGs. I have played RPGs that had no stats, no custumizable gear, no party, no quests and no pre-set story but were nontheless RPGs. Thus it would seem illogical to base the defenition of CRPGs on these things.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 15 mai 2010 - 05:09 .

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

An RPG doesn't have to have you affecting the story. You only need to play a role.

How can you play a role without affecting the story?

*sighs* Like I said we're not going to agree. If you play the role of a certain character and have no control over the script other than reading your lines you're still playing a role.

[the_one_54321]

TheMufflon wrote...
 what's the point of having good graphics if you have bad graphical design? Also, I don't see what the style and concept art being based on concept art has to do with anything. Having bad concept art doesn't excuse having bad art style...

There is no such thing as bad art style. There is only what some people like, and what others don't like. You don't like the look of FF13, but I and a lot of others thought it was gorgeous. That's all subjective.

The quality and detail of the animation is not subjective. BioWare animation seriously needs polish. It isn't crappy, but it doesn't hold a candle to Square's animation.

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

*sighs* Like I said we're not going to agree. If you play the role of a certain character and have no control over the script other than reading your lines you're still playing a role.

You're not reading the lines, you're watching them being read. You're not acting in the movie, you're just watching it.

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*sighs* Like I said we're not going to agree. If you play the role of a certain character and have no control over the script other than reading your lines you're still playing a role.

You're not reading the lines, you're watching them being read. You're not acting in the movie, you're just watching it.

Right because changing weapons attacking, choosing pokemon their abilities and how to defeat your opponents is totally the same thing as sitting and watching someone else do the same thing.

Like I said we're not going to agree.

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Right because changing weapons attacking, choosing pokemon their abilities and how to defeat your opponents is totally the same thing as sitting and watching someone else do the same thing.

Changing weapons, choosing pokémon abilities and how to defeat your oppponents is the same as placing and rotating blocks in Tetris.

To keep on with the movie analogy, it's like having to change the reels except it's fun.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 15 mai 2010 - 05:50 .

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Right because changing weapons attacking, choosing pokemon their abilities and how to defeat your opponents is totally the same thing as sitting and watching someone else do the same thing.

Changing weapons, choosing pokémon abilities and how to defeat your oppponents is the same as placing and rotating blocks in Tetris.

To keep on with the movie analogy, it's like having to change the reels except it's fun.

Except that Pokemon gives you a reason and purpose for doing so where's Tetris is just because.

Once again. Pokemon is an rpg. Tetris is not. Most games are RPGs.

No to keep with the movie analogy its like watching a movie vs one where you can randomly enter the fight scenes and battle while not being able to talk or influence the plot in any major way. You however do have full control over how you fight and what you fight with as well as they abilities your character learns. You can't do that with a movie.

Once again: We're not going to agree at this point you're just perpetuating us going around in circles.

Edit: Also following your logic an MMO isn't a Roleplaying game.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 05:54 .

[TheMufflon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Once again. Pokemon is an rpg. Tetris is not. Most games are RPGs.

My point is that neither of them are, because you cannot have any significant interaction with the story in either one. The gameplay in Halo and (to a lesser extent) Pokémon is pretty much like the gameplay in Tetris, in that it has no real effect on the story. In the case of Tetris it's because there simply is no story to interact with, in Halo it's because the story and gameplay are separate.

Except that Pokemon gives you a reason and purpose for doing so where's
Tetris is just because.

My purpose in playing Pokémon was to have fun, my purpose in playing Tetris is having fun.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 15 mai 2010 - 06:00 .

[chiliztri]

There is no set in stone definition for an RPG. Everyone has their own opinions on what an RPG is.



The only way to really define an RPG is in simplistic terms. Essentially, any game where you take the role of character should be considered an RPG because you are assuming the role, thus roleplaying.



Like I said, everyone has a different opinion on what an RPG is. There is no use going in circles and arguing because I doubt either one of you are going to change your opinions.

[Ryzaki]

TheMufflon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Once again. Pokemon is an rpg. Tetris is not. Most games are RPGs.

My point is that neither of them are, because you cannot have any significant interaction with the story in either one. The gameplay in Halo and (to a lesser extent) Pokémon is pretty much like the gameplay in Tetris, in that it has no real effect on the story. In the case of Tetris it's because there simply is no story to interact with, in Halo it's because the story and gameplay are separate.

*sighs* Once again you're trying to fit a whole genre into a subgenre. Roleplaying games are about playing a role not influencing the story. Roleplaying games where you influence the story are a subgenre of roleplaying games.

Pokemon no matter how much you say its not is a roleplaying game. It always has been a roleplaying game. It always will be a roleplaying game.

According to your logic MMOs are not roleplaying. A roleplaying game doesn't have to have the player influence the story. Merely participate. And you're participating by playing the game and controlling the character, if not their actions then their bodies.

Stats are another subgenre of RPGs. You control the character by changing their development.

And yeah this is pointless. We're not convincing each other of anything.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 mai 2010 - 06:03 .