283 réponses à ce sujet

[William Adama]

I never really understood the motive that went behind the mass genocides the Reapers periodically committed for the sole purpose of procreation... one would think that hyper advanced intelligences would be FAR more moral than those of smaller minds.

For example, human intelligence has allowed for empathy to be experienced which led to more pro social behaviours given to not only members of our own race but to members of other species as well.

Reapers SHOULD have not only empathy but possibly even greater senses of morality unthinkable or unpercievable to other organic life. Murder/violence for ANY reason should be abhorant for higher beings due to the fact that they understand suffering and death to a greater degree.

Legion/Geth came to this truth on its own and it's a machine... allowing things to self determinate absolves oneself from guilt of evils these beings visit upon themselves. Like if Legion were witnessing a quadruple homocide committed by 2 Vorcha on 4 other Vorcha and did nothing, he is not morally responsible for the actions of the Vorcha. But if her intervenes and kills the 2 Vorcha, he is guilty of murder. Evils done for a sake of good do not exist... if antyhing, higher intelligent peoples scoff at consequentialism and practice modes of deontological morality almost to absolution.

Why would Bioware even impose such a evil persona on beings that are obviously our intellectual superiors? I find it hard to believe that 100% of this race agrees with the destruction and mutilation of galactic civilizations solely for the sake of "building" more Reapers... if antyhing they should have found alternative paths to this problem due to the fact they are vastly more intelligent.

They just seem too... Terminator to me. And don't respond by saying that Reapers are machines, they are ORGANICS mixed with technology so they infact should experience organic sentience albeit on a higher level.

Discuss.

[Sphaerus]

How guilty do you feel about taking a water hose to an ant hill? As far as ME is concerned, we are to Reapers as ants are to us.

[FluxDeluxe]

Who says empathy and compassion have anything to do with intelligence? The origins of empathy come from a recognised need to function together as a society the reapers are way beyond us they don't need to work with us we are a resource to be ruthlessly exploited. Much like native Americans or aborigines in our own history. Every reaper is a legion, as sovereign says we are beyond your comprehension. They are predominantly machines and we still haven't found out exactly what their motivations are for the harvest.... Perhaps their motivations transcend emotion, compassion or empathy.

Modifié par FluxDeluxe, 13 mai 2010 - 06:54 .

[Veex]

Trying to fit a completely fictional species into your very human constructs = bad thread.

[KalosCast]

Sphaerus wrote...

How guilty do you feel about taking a water hose to an ant hill? As far as ME is concerned, we are to Reapers as ants are to us.

NO JOHN, YOU ARE THE REAPERS

And then John was a Collector.

But yeah, this pretty much hits the nail on the head.

[phunphool]

I, for one, welcome our new (robot) insect overlords

[I99I Dragoon]

well, I'm not sure, and maybe we'll never know. If you played ME1 and asked Sovereign why they're doing this, they respond that it is beyond our comprehension.

[cruc1al]

Off-topic, but anyway.

Funny, I saw the thread title, and having just watched an episode of BSG, I thought of Reapers as the "gods" of the cylons, and how the geth relate to the cylons in many ways. Both geth and cylons are networked, both had lived "beyond the veil" for a long time prior to the events of the series, both can be downloaded to a new body (or platform), both killed millions upon millions of their masters and drove them from their home worlds...

Then I saw the OP's name: William Adama.

Funny coincidence

Modifié par cruc1al, 13 mai 2010 - 09:08 .

[Thompson family]

I think the answer to this question is in statements made by Harbinger throughout ME2 but most particularly in the cutscene that opens the Horizon mission:

"We are the harbingers of their perfection. Prepare these humans for ascension."

Reapers think they're doing us a favor.

Modifié par Thompson family, 13 mai 2010 - 09:11 .

[SpectreSeven]

Thompson family wrote...

I think the answer to this question is in statements made by Harbinger throughout ME2 but most particularly in the cutscene that opens the Horizon mission:

"We are the harbingers of their perfection. Prepare these humans for ascension."

Reapers think they're doing us a favor.

From that cutscene, you'd swear the Reapers are doing something good. You never know...

[William Adama]

FluxDeluxe wrote...

Who says empathy and compassion have anything to do with intelligence? The origins of empathy come from a recognised need to function together as a society the reapers are way beyond us they don't need to work with us we are a resource to be ruthlessly exploited. Much like native Americans or aborigines in our own history. Every reaper is a legion, as sovereign says we are beyond your comprehension. They are predominantly machines and we still haven't found out exactly what their motivations are for the harvest.... Perhaps their motivations transcend emotion, compassion or empathy.

Compassion and empathy are a function of brain complexity as are all social constructs. As far as animals go, Dolphins and Humans seem to exhibit pro-social behaviour and empathy towards themselves and other animals not of their species. the ability to think in anothers shoes seems to imply that complex cognitive systems need to be in place to think ABSTRACTLY. Abstract thought is a function of intelligence.

Reapers are very smart, therefore they should be able to think abstractly and thus empathize. If they were incapable of abstract thought they never would have been able to leave their original planet or their solar system much less create the Mass relays and concoct a diabolical plan to harvest organic life every 50 millenia.

[Pyromanen]

Who says the reapers were not built and programmed to do this cycle of endless death and destruction by some truely twisted evil beings of über technology?

[William Adama]

Sphaerus wrote...

How guilty do you feel about taking a water hose to an ant hill? As far as ME is concerned, we are to Reapers as ants are to us.

Humans don't commune with ants like the Reapers did with Shepard, Saren, Geth, Protheans, or Collectors.

Reapers KNOW we are sentient, subjective, emotional entities; yet they feel nothing towards the murder of trillions of comparable entities... I cannot believe that.

And as far as we can tell, ants are a collection of reflexes that respond to their environments. They don't seem to experience emotions or sentience as complex as humans do, nor do I feel that taking a hose to ants is a moral act to begin with.

Consider that you as a being of greater understanding decide to destroy a community of ants just because you can... The ants don't understand why you are doing it, yet you rationalize your actions as moral. Removing a entities ability to select a future is always immoral, even if its a worm or ant. Just because most people wouldn't frown at you for doing it doesn't mean its right. 

You should respect animals, because you are more intelligent then they are. You have no excuse to acting immoral towards them, you cannot say, "I didn't know any better." 

[2pac Shakur]

Pyromanen wrote...

Who says the reapers were not built and programmed to do this cycle of endless death and destruction by some truely twisted evil beings of über technology?

that is just retarded plot induced stupidity

Even EA isn't willing to go THAT far for money

[William Adama]

Pyromanen wrote...

Who says the reapers were not built and programmed to do this cycle of endless death and destruction by some truely twisted evil beings of über technology?

Again, if organics built and programmed the Reapers to do this... they must also be vastly intelligent beings as well.

And they should be able to empathize.

[Der Kirk]

Maybe they just got bored one day and decided to destroy everything. Think little kids. They love building towers with blocks/ watching other kids build towers with blocks then smashing them to bits.



Take everything Sovereign and harbinger have said, and replace it with the voice of a small 5 year old boy. Everything will make sense.

[cruc1al]

William Adama wrote...
Removing a entities ability to select a future is always immoral, even if its a worm or ant.

I highly doubt you believe that. You place living beings higher on a list of entities based on just the fact that they're living. But what is living, and why does it deserve a place higher on that list? Do you believe what you wrote, if I changed worm into flower or ant into bacterium? What about rocks, water drops, planetary bodies?

[SkullandBonesmember]

William Adama wrote...

Pyromanen wrote...

Who says the reapers were not built and programmed to do this cycle of endless death and destruction by some truely twisted evil beings of über technology?

Again, if organics built and programmed the Reapers to do this... they must also be vastly intelligent beings as well.

And they should be able to empathize.

Hitler would like a word with you.

[2pac Shakur]

Adriano87 wrote...


2) The Galaxy is a Laboratory for them

The galaxy is a training ground for the reapers who have been trying to create the perfect weapons for thousands of years, by encouraging evolution to create more advanced species each time. Reapers are good guys >.> want to fight the real enemy

nahhh that's just lame

[phunphool]

So what i'm getting from your argument is that empathy is a natural product of intelligence. However, although higher level intelligence may be necessary for empathy, it does not automatically mean that empathy will always arise.

If we look throughout history, there are innumerable instances when humans act in a very savage "inhumane" way towards other humans. Some obvious examples off the top of my head include the **** massacre of Jews, the Tutsi genocide in Rwanda, the persecution of Christians during Roman times, etc. All it takes is for one group to justify its actions (erroneously), and empathy takes a back seat. It doesn't matter how intelligent the individual or group is.

In the case of the reapers, the cause of their mass genocide is unknown, but they themselves are convinced of the need to do this. Interesting topic!

Modifié par phunphool, 13 mai 2010 - 09:52 .

[William Adama]

cruc1al wrote...

William Adama wrote...
Removing a entities ability to select a future is always immoral, even if its a worm or ant.

I highly doubt you believe that. You place living beings higher on a list of entities based on just the fact that they're living. But what is living, and why does it deserve a place higher on that list? Do you believe what you wrote, if I changed worm into flower or ant into bacterium? What about rocks, water drops, planetary bodies?

Only animals, NOT living beings. Bacteria and plants do not belong on equal moral plateaus as "free willed" animals.
 
I respect all living things as they all serve a purpose, but I do not mourn when a blade of grass gets bent under my foot when I step on it. Plants do not choose their destinies, animals do. This is why murder is immoral, you take away an animals choice.

Im not an animal activist, I eat beef and pork. But I respect the animal I am eating as their death served the purpose of feeding me. I try to finish all my food and not be wasteful because in the back of my mind I know that an animal died to be served on this plate to me. If anything, I eat my meat FIRST and the rest of the meal after to ensure the animal was used.

[Dethateer]

Am I understanding this thread correctly? You guys are debating an extremely arbitrary part of the psychology of beings beyond our understanding? That's like trying to figure out Cthulhu.

[Xpheyel]

William Adama wrote...

FluxDeluxe wrote...

Who says empathy and compassion have anything to do with intelligence? The origins of empathy come from a recognised need to function together as a society the reapers are way beyond us they don't need to work with us we are a resource to be ruthlessly exploited. Much like native Americans or aborigines in our own history. Every reaper is a legion, as sovereign says we are beyond your comprehension. They are predominantly machines and we still haven't found out exactly what their motivations are for the harvest.... Perhaps their motivations transcend emotion, compassion or empathy.

Compassion and empathy are a function of brain complexity as are all social constructs. As far as animals go, Dolphins and Humans seem to exhibit pro-social behaviour and empathy towards themselves and other animals not of their species. the ability to think in anothers shoes seems to imply that complex cognitive systems need to be in place to think ABSTRACTLY. Abstract thought is a function of intelligence.

Reapers are very smart, therefore they should be able to think abstractly and thus empathize. If they were incapable of abstract thought they never would have been able to leave their original planet or their solar system much less create the Mass relays and concoct a diabolical plan to harvest organic life every 50 millenia.

Actually, my pet theory is that they have to be fundamentally broken in some way. Otherwise, they would've gotten bored of Reaping at some point. Apparently in millions of years, they haven't really changed their behavior. Nor in the 50,000 years since the Prothean reap have they substantially changed their technology. Despite their apparent sophistication and fabulous gloating, they must be barred in some way from changing and evolving. Not to mention being apparently being AI, they should be able to process information and think far faster than a human equivalent intelligence. Which would basically mean their perception of a second of time, let alone millions of years, should be longer. 

[William Adama]

phunphool wrote...

So what i'm getting from your argument is that empathy is a natural product of intelligence. However, although higher level intelligence may be necessary for empathy, it does not automatically mean that empathy will always arise.

If we look throughout history, there are innumerable instances when humans act in a very savage "inhumane" way towards other humans. Some obvious examples off the top of my head include the **** massacre of Jews, the Tutsi genocide in Rwanda, the persecution of Christians during Roman times, etc. All it takes is for one group to justify its actions (erroneously), and empathy takes a back seat. It doesn't matter how intelligent the individual or group is.

In the case of the reapers, the cause of their mass genocide is unknown, but they themselves are convinced of the need to do this. Interesting topic!

Yes I agree, but you have to understand that those instances are referred to as hate crimes. Take the Jewish genocide, the German people were UNaware that Jews and other minorities were being collected and murdered at the whim of Hitler. The German people as a whole did not like the Jews because they blamed them for the economic depression that Germany went through after the Treaty of Versailles.

The German people were living is destute conditions and starvation was settling in, all the while the Jews remained relatively well off within Germany. People sought scapegoats and Hitler united the German people into a angry campaign against the Jews that was fed BY POVERTY. Hitler saved Germany by building up their army and campaigned against the "unjust" actions taken by the west against Germany after WW1.

When the Allies came into Germany and found the concentration camps, they forced the general population of Germans to help with the cleanup of the camps; the German people were devastated at what they found. They did not know that Jews were being killed like that.

It's very easy to hate someone on paper, but it's very hard to see that person suffer in reality. Hitler hated the Jews, but he himself did not pull the trigger that killed them he merely instructed his soldiers to do so.

Most of the atrocities committed by people in history usually had some cause to them. They were not done merely for the lust of violence, but for a "righting of wrongs" done against them. War DESTROYS mens souls, every soldier who has fought in major conflicts experiences enormous psychological strife. Extreme depression and even thoughts of suicide are very common in soldiers which is why boot camps try to teach soldiers to HATE their enemy before they kill them.

Make them seem like evil people on a quest to destroy all good, of course people will believe they are doing more good than evil. But I think the majority of people who hated their enemies hated them because of what they forced them to do; murder their fellow man over ideas, land or politics.