283 réponses à ce sujet

[cruc1al]

Tirigon wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

If the reapers were just helpers, they would accept if a race disagrees to "evolve" and not wipe them out.

Unless they think the disagreeing races don't know what they want/need.

It is a foolish assumption anyone could know what´s best for you unless yourself. If they think what they do is "helping others to their luck" that means they´re asses and I´ll enjoy kicking their butts in ME3:police:

Oh really? I think it's a foolish assumption that you always know what's best for you, even if someone smarter or more educated to you is telling you that you're wrong. If you're going to sub-Saharan Africa, and having been brought up to believe western medicine is evil, is it not foolish to refuse your doctor's strong recommendation to take a anti-malaria medication?

Modifié par cruc1al, 17 mai 2010 - 03:34 .

[Tirigon]

cruc1al wrote...


Oh really? I think it's a foolish assumption that you always know what's best for you, even if someone smarter or more educated to you is telling you that you're wrong. If you're going to sub-Saharan Africa, and having been brought up to believe western medicine is evil, is it not foolish to refuse your doctor's strong recommendation to take a anti-malaria medication?

The price for Freedom is Responsibility. If someone chooses to die from malaria it is HIS choice. YOU have NO right to take his freedom away from him, no matter how foolish you might think him.

[Alpha-Centuri]

I don't see why there would be a few Reapers who pity the humans. Empathy is a human concept. They aren't human. Why would they necessarily have empathy then? Even in the universe, this whole sense of mercy and 'the humane thing to do' is lost on the other races. In many cases, non-human squad mates (i.e Mordin) sees you spare someone, they see it as irrational, and they are quick to tell you that they would have simply killed the person.(Rana on Tuchanka comes to mind)



This might be anecdotal, but considering Bioware isn't going to give us the perspective of every single individiual of every species, I can only use the archetypes of each of their races (the squadmates) to gain insight into the values that embody each of the culture.



Tali sometimes goes against the mold, but then again she doesn't empathize with Legion unless you paragon check her into seeing it from his perspective. I digress.



In summary, those that have gained equal levels of intelligence to humans (like Mordin, Garrus, etc) aren't exactly empathetic until you as the character influence them to think so. After all, paragon Shepherd has notions of mercy and fairness that rubs off on them. If they aren't naturally merciful, then why would a being that blows our intelligence level out the water?

[KitsuneRommel]

Tirigon wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...


Actually we could expand that to the victors too. http://en.wikipedia....ng_World_War_II

I do not think the allied war crimes excuse the N@zi´s crimes. Even more so as the allies´crimes happened later.

Neither should we excuse ally war crimes just because ****s did it first.

[KitsuneRommel]

In summary, those that have gained equal levels of intelligence to humans (like Mordin, Garrus, etc) aren't exactly empathetic until you as the character influence them to think so. After all, paragon Shepherd has notions of mercy and fairness that rubs off on them. If they aren't naturally merciful, then why would a being that blows our intelligence level out the water?

Mordin and Garrus are just individuals. Do you think the workers you rescue during Thane's recruitment mission would be just as quick to shoot someone?

[cruc1al]

Tirigon wrote...

cruc1al wrote...


Oh really? I think it's a foolish assumption that you always know what's best for you, even if someone smarter or more educated to you is telling you that you're wrong. If you're going to sub-Saharan Africa, and having been brought up to believe western medicine is evil, is it not foolish to refuse your doctor's strong recommendation to take a anti-malaria medication?

The price for Freedom is Responsibility. If someone chooses to die from malaria it is HIS choice. YOU have NO right to take his freedom away from him, no matter how foolish you might think him.

Sorry I should've made my argument more clear. It's not about someone choosing to die from malaria. It's about someone believing that taking the medicine means he's going to hell, or that by praying to God he won't get malaria. In essence it's about him being factually wrong, and if he had the same knowledge as the doctor, he wouldn't make the same choice. In other words, the doctor knows better what's good for him.

But I agree with your premise. It's just that reapers could know what's right for humans; but it doesn't mean that it's morally right for them to enforce it on us, to take away our freedom.

Modifié par cruc1al, 17 mai 2010 - 04:07 .

[SuperMedbh]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

I don't see why there would be a few Reapers who pity the humans. Empathy is a human concept.

"They do not share your pity, remorse or fear."
-Legion

[Annihilator27]

SuperMedbh wrote...

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

I don't see why there would be a few Reapers who pity the humans. Empathy is a human concept.

"They do not share your pity, remorse or fear."
-Legion

Legion is the best.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
However, I think it was a mistake to recreate the German state as quickly as 1949. It would have been better to occupy Germany for longer, and Germany shouldn´t be allowed to have an army. Would not only be a justified consequence of the N@zi rule but also have the advantage that we Germans wouldn´t have to serve in the army

Cold War considerations.
What better way is there to frigthen the Russians other than arming the Germans?

But yea that's what France and Britain wanted to do but the USA refused.

[Alpha-Centuri]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

In summary, those that have gained equal levels of intelligence to humans (like Mordin, Garrus, etc) aren't exactly empathetic until you as the character influence them to think so. After all, paragon Shepherd has notions of mercy and fairness that rubs off on them. If they aren't naturally merciful, then why would a being that blows our intelligence level out the water?

Mordin and Garrus are just individuals. Do you think the workers you rescue during Thane's recruitment mission would be just as quick to shoot someone?

Not sure. I know that THEY don't want to be shot, but who knows if they were in the position of power. As Ronald Taylor said "The realities of command. They change you."

One of my favorite quotes of all time, "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you
want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

[KnightofPhoenix]

Adriano87 wrote...

Russians have 10 thousand nuclear missile !

They had barely developped an Atom bomb in 1949. Their first test was that year.  

[Tirigon]

Adriano87 wrote...

@Tirigon ... I'm planning to be a samurai-justicar ... I want the freedom to carry a sword !

As long as you don´t kill others for the fun, go ahead.

I want a sword myself, and I´ll surely buy one once I can afford it.

[Tirigon]

cruc1al wrote...


Sorry I should've made my argument more clear. It's not about someone choosing to die from malaria. It's about someone believing that taking the medicine means he's going to hell, or that by praying to God he won't get malaria. In essence it's about him being factually wrong, and if he had the same knowledge as the doctor, he wouldn't make the same choice. In other words, the doctor knows better what's good for him.

But I agree with your premise. It's just that reapers could know what's right for humans; but it doesn't mean that it's morally right for them to enforce it on us, to take away our freedom.

And that´s what I mean - even if the reapers were right like the doctor is in your analogy, they still have to accept our freedom or they are not helpers but murderers and oppressors.

[Tirigon]

annihilator27 wrote...

Legion is the best.

I hereby invite you in my group that wants Legion as LI because you are so damned right!

[KitsuneRommel]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Not sure. I know that THEY don't want to be shot, but who knows if they were in the position of power. As Ronald Taylor said "The realities of command. They change you."

Well in the case of Turians we only have to look at Executor Pallin, the head of C-Sec and compare him to Garrus.

He mistrusts Spectres because he believes nobody should act above the
law — he claims he has never had to break the law to do his job.

[Tirigon]

Adriano87 wrote...


and we completly forgot that Reapers have the ability to Indoctrinate the species ... doesn't it change our explains (at least a little) ?

Why should it? Indoctrination ruins the mind and they end up as husks, or die because noone tells them how to survive. That is hardly preferrable to death.

[Alpha-Centuri]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Not
sure. I know that THEY don't want to be shot, but who knows if they
were in the position of power. As Ronald Taylor said "The realities of
command. They change you."

Well in the case of
Turians we only have to look at Executor Pallin, the head of C-Sec and
compare him to Garrus.

He mistrusts Spectres because he
believes nobody should act above the
law — he claims he has never
had to break the law to do his job.

But he goes on to agree that there has to be Spectres in the universe when you press him. If i recall he is just simply wary of them.

Anyway, that doesn't prove that he has empathy or mercy. If anything, had Sidonis did his actions in Citadel space, I don't think it would be a stretch that the law that Pallin upholds would not have been merciful.

Law and mercy are two seperate concepts.

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 17 mai 2010 - 04:54 .

[KitsuneRommel]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

But he goes on to agree that there has to be Spectres in the universe when you press him. If i recall he is just simply wary of them.

He says they need to be held to a higher standard.

Anyway, that doesn't prove that he has empathy or mercy. If anything, had Sidonis did his actions in Citadel space, I don't think it would be a stretch that the law that Pallin upholds would not have been merciful.

Law and mercy are two seperate concepts.

Of course but that just points how varied the alien races are and how you shouldn't base your assumptions about a race on few individuals.

[Alpha-Centuri]

I said in my first post that I can only form my opinion of races in this game through what I see by the archetypes of their culture. That, and the codex that bioware has given us to flesh out the world. Everything else is imagination. I'm NOT saying that all turians, asari, etc. are cookie-cutter drones that act the same. Don't confuse that.

What I thought I was clearly saying was that mercy is lost on many of the cultures that we see in the game. Why are you trying to attribute humane concepts onto the cultures that don't exhibit them when there is no proof to the contrary. To make them more human in your eyes? They aren't human.

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 17 mai 2010 - 05:46 .

[KitsuneRommel]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Why are you trying to attribute humane concepts onto the cultures that don't exhibit them when there is no proof to the contrary. To make them more human in your eyes? They aren't human.

But is empathy a purely human phenomenon? Since the aliens seem to exhibit so many other human emotions (pride, anger, lust etc) how can we be sure?

[Alpha-Centuri]

What you just listed are not only human emotions. Lions are prideful, My dog gets angry when threatened. Monkeys have been known to perform oral sex on each other when aroused.

Back to the aliens... the only concrete aspects of the cultures are what bioware has laid out. The beauty of the game is that everything else is up to the imagination. The only way to be sure that these cultures exhibit them is if Bioware puts it into the game

This discussion is besides the point.

Unfortunately, I feel like you are not addressing the crux of my argument, specifically the issue about the Reapers. The Reapers, our intellectually superior, are on another level. Why would they be limited by human concepts (or if it allows you to address the actual question, human equivalent species' concepts) when they are not human (or the intellectual equivalent).

Edit: Take into account what supermedbh so wisely quoted. "They do not share your pity, remorse or fear." -Legion

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 17 mai 2010 - 06:29 .

[KitsuneRommel]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

What you just listed are not only human emotions. Lions are prideful, My dog gets angry when threatened. Monkeys have been known to perform oral sex on each other when aroused.

Ha! But neither is empathy! (http://www.scientifi...ls-feel-empathy http://www.timesonli...icle4595810.ece). If mice can feel empathy too is it intrisic to intelligence?

Unfortunately, I feel like you are not addressing the crux of my argument, specifically the issue about the Reapers. The Reapers, our intellectually superior, are on another level. Why would they be limited by human concepts (or if it allows you to address the actual question, human equivalent species' concepts) when they are not human (or the intellectual equivalent).

Of course Bioware could just come up something lame like "They do it because they are Evil!" or "They are vastly superior in intellect yet can't even make plans that a single human can't spoil".

Edit: Take into account what supermedbh so wisely quoted. "They do not share your pity, remorse or fear." -Legion

How would it know really? Do the Geth feel pity, remorse or fear?