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[2pac Shakur]

[quote]William Adama wrote...

campaigned against the "unjust" actions taken by the west against Germany after WW1.
[quote]

the treaty of versailles was EXTREMELY unfair on germany

Modifié par 2pac Shakur, 13 mai 2010 - 10:43 .

[William Adama]

[quote]2pac Shakur wrote...

[quote]William Adama wrote...

campaigned against the "unjust" actions taken by the west against Germany after WW1.
[quote]

the treaty of versailles was EXTREMELY unfair on germany[/quote]

I agree.

[palehorse71l]

I do not think the Reapers look at their galactic genocide as a moral issue, but rather an issue of survival. In order for them to continue to exist and procreate they have to annihilate the entire galaxy. If they continued to let the rest of the species advance after they found the one species to use to reproduce the next time they came back they may come up against a more advanced and unforgiving galaxy they left behind.

[phunphool]

William Adama wrote...

phunphool wrote...

So what i'm getting from your argument is that empathy is a natural product of intelligence. However, although higher level intelligence may be necessary for empathy, it does not automatically mean that empathy will always arise.

If we look throughout history, there are innumerable instances when humans act in a very savage "inhumane" way towards other humans. Some obvious examples off the top of my head include the **** massacre of Jews, the Tutsi genocide in Rwanda, the persecution of Christians during Roman times, etc. All it takes is for one group to justify its actions (erroneously), and empathy takes a back seat. It doesn't matter how intelligent the individual or group is.

In the case of the reapers, the cause of their mass genocide is unknown, but they themselves are convinced of the need to do this. Interesting topic!

Yes I agree, but you have to understand that those instances are referred to as hate crimes. Take the Jewish genocide, the German people were UNaware that Jews and other minorities were being collected and murdered at the whim of Hitler. The German people as a whole did not like the Jews because they blamed them for the economic depression that Germany went through after the Treaty of Versailles.

The German people were living is destute conditions and starvation was settling in, all the while the Jews remained relatively well off within Germany. People sought scapegoats and Hitler united the German people into a angry campaign against the Jews that was fed BY POVERTY. Hitler saved Germany by building up their army and campaigned against the "unjust" actions taken by the west against Germany after WW1.

When the Allies came into Germany and found the concentration camps, they forced the general population of Germans to help with the cleanup of the camps; the German people were devastated at what they found. They did not know that Jews were being killed like that.

It's very easy to hate someone on paper, but it's very hard to see that person suffer in reality. Hitler hated the Jews, but he himself did not pull the trigger that killed them he merely instructed his soldiers to do so.

Most of the atrocities committed by people in history usually had some cause to them. They were not done merely for the lust of violence, but for a "righting of wrongs" done against them. War DESTROYS mens souls, every soldier who has fought in major conflicts experiences enormous psychological strife. Extreme depression and even thoughts of suicide are very common in soldiers which is why boot camps try to teach soldiers to HATE their enemy before they kill them.

Make them seem like evil people on a quest to destroy all good, of course people will believe they are doing more good than evil. But I think the majority of people who hated their enemies hated them because of what they forced them to do; murder their fellow man over ideas, land or politics.

Yes, I realize that they were hate crimes and that it was not out of pure lust for violence.  Also, I am not speaking about those Germans who did not know, I am referring to the Order Police and the Einsatzgruppen, the men actually tasked with wiping out the Jews.   I have read personal accounts of **** Order Police participating in atrocities who by all other accounts, were "good men."  They were middle aged, ordinary, municipal police officers who are the equivalent of any city police force you see today (Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning).  They knew what they were doing was fundamentally wrong and even unjustified, but still empathy took a backseat.  I won't go into the reasons why here, but the point is that intelligence does not automatically lead to empathy.  Unfortunately, it can become a vehicle for empathy to be ignored.

If the Reapers have convinced themselves that the best way to do what they do was to wipe out all galactic life every 50,000 years ad nauseum, then that reason is enough to supercede whatever empathy they have (if any).  Damn you Reapers!

[Jan Pogonowski]

They are robots. But they have as much right and reason as any other being because they have earned it. Survival of the fittest and all that. But the balance is about to change in ME3.

[mosor]

Morality is relative. They may not share our concept of morality.

[cruc1al]

William Adama wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

William Adama wrote...
Removing a entities ability to select a future is always immoral, even if its a worm or ant.

I highly doubt you believe that. You place living beings higher on a list of entities based on just the fact that they're living. But what is living, and why does it deserve a place higher on that list? Do you believe what you wrote, if I changed worm into flower or ant into bacterium? What about rocks, water drops, planetary bodies?

Only animals, NOT living beings. Bacteria and plants do not belong on equal moral plateaus as "free willed" animals.

Animals and plants share an evolutionary history. At what point in the evolution of the animal kingdom did "the ability select a future" evolve? Is it a trait common to all animals? Highly undoubted since not all of those have even central nervous systems, let alone complex brains. Is it a trait common to all animals that have brains? At what point in the evolution of the brain did the trait come to exist? How do you know an ant can choose its own future; how do you know it's not just biological hardware?

[Tirigon]

Using humans or other species is for Reapers probably like using bacteria to produce food or medicine is to us.

[TychoMonolith]

In many ways, this plot theme is the same as H.G. Wells' The War of the Worlds, only played out on a much larger scale.



Empathy, no matter how many neurons are firing in your brain when you conduct empathetic fault, is not synonymous with being of a higher intelligence.



The inspiration for War of the Worlds came when Wells and a mate of his were discussing the British colonization of Tazmania in which, within a generation, all native Tazmanians were wiped out. Wells applied that idea to 'Martians' coming down to Victorian Britain. Mass Effect simply copies this premise, this time making it a race of sentient machines to regard the galaxy in the same why a "scientist may study the bacteria in a droplet of water"



Sorry for the digression, but this is a common theme throughout sci fi as a result of Wells' work, so I don't think its too out of the ordinary as you suggest.

[Khayness]

All must fall upon Entropy's blade. The time nears when it will be necessary to breach the walls of Creation. Order will be put to the sword. Its chains will be broken. The Multiverse will be unmade.

Modifié par Khayness, 14 mai 2010 - 12:09 .

[William Adama]

TychoMonolith wrote...

In many ways, this plot theme is the same as H.G. Wells' The War of the Worlds, only played out on a much larger scale.

Empathy, no matter how many neurons are firing in your brain when you conduct empathetic fault, is not synonymous with being of a higher intelligence.

The inspiration for War of the Worlds came when Wells and a mate of his were discussing the British colonization of Tazmania in which, within a generation, all native Tazmanians were wiped out. Wells applied that idea to 'Martians' coming down to Victorian Britain. Mass Effect simply copies this premise, this time making it a race of sentient machines to regard the galaxy in the same why a "scientist may study the bacteria in a droplet of water"

Sorry for the digression, but this is a common theme throughout sci fi as a result of Wells' work, so I don't think its too out of the ordinary as you suggest.

Yes but the Martians were intellectually similar to humans while the Reapers are not, not to mention that aliens (if they do exist) would NOT exhibit such violent behaviour towards other sentient beings due to their higher intelligences.

In response to your comment, I believe that H.G. Wells was trying to create a situation of helplessness of humanity much in the same way the Tazmanians felt during the British colonization. He never actually entertained the thought that intelligence would lead to higher morality states.

Before you counter my argument with examples of human cruelty examples I have to remind you that genocides throughout human history were committed in specific social and political situations. I do not know the full story of the Tazmanian genocide, but the British must have had some reason to commit such an atrocity towards their fellow man. And I hardly believe that 100% of those troops supported their conclusion to mass murder.

Yes i understand that this may be exactly what the Reapers are experiencing, however I hardly find that an excuse for higher intelligent beings to commit GALACTIC genocide. How can someone resort to complete genocide to SUSTAIN a race? It didn't look like the Reapers were small in numbers in ME2 so they are not at risk for extinction. I would have found this premise far more intruiging has the Reapers been a dying race with the majority of the race hunting down the genocidal faction Reapers for the crimes they have committed...

Instead we get an entire species of life grouped together with the intention of merely surviving trillions of years at the expense of trillions of lives. For what purpose? To float around in dark space for the lifespan of the Universe?

If the Reapers were trying to do something positive with their existence than I could empathize with their situation but they are doing nothing but destroying.

It's illogical.

[William Adama]

It just seems like Reapers are actually big guns with human children at the helm.



They don't behave in any transcendent fashion like ALL the other species of life in ME do, everybody is on a quest for greater being; even the Krogan are trying to improve themselves.



The wiser the person, the more peaceful they become. The Reapers have millions of years of sentience, did they learn nothing in their entire existences?

[mosor]

William Adama wrote...

It just seems like Reapers are actually big guns with human children at the helm.

They don't behave in any transcendent fashion like ALL the other species of life in ME do, everybody is on a quest for greater being; even the Krogan are trying to improve themselves.

The wiser the person, the more peaceful they become. The Reapers have millions of years of sentience, did they learn nothing in their entire existences?

I don't think there is much of a correlation between wisdom and peace. Plenty of warmongers have been wise educated people and plenty of peaceful people were poor and uneducated.

[William Adama]

mosor wrote...

William Adama wrote...

It just seems like Reapers are actually big guns with human children at the helm.

They don't behave in any transcendent fashion like ALL the other species of life in ME do, everybody is on a quest for greater being; even the Krogan are trying to improve themselves.

The wiser the person, the more peaceful they become. The Reapers have millions of years of sentience, did they learn nothing in their entire existences?

I don't think there is much of a correlation between wisdom and peace. Plenty of warmongers have been wise educated people and plenty of peaceful people were poor and uneducated.

Such as...

[TychoMonolith]

William Adama wrote...



Such as...

The Amish

Modifié par TychoMonolith, 14 mai 2010 - 02:50 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

TychoMonolith wrote...

William Adama wrote...



Such as...

The Amish

So...in the future we'll rely upon the reapers for...very good cheese and butter?...Awesome!

[askanec]

Does it not seem pretty futile to understand Reaper motivation using human reasoning? Can an alien understand why humans get so worked up over a bunch of men chasing after a ball on a grassy field?



Who knows, maybe the Reapers hold an Olympic games every 50,000 years and compete to see which of them harvest the most. The one who wins get to be king for the next 50,000 years.

[Kaiser Shepard]

They do what they must,

because they can.

For the 'good' of all of us,

except the ones who'll be dead.

[Zaxares]

Interesting discussion.



I see the point you're trying to make, Adama, but I think the central flaw here is that you're trying to comprehend the thought patterns and underlying desires of a being that simply cannot be translated into human intelligence.



The Reapers are a collective consciousness; like the geth, they are an amalgamated intelligence comprised of billions, perhaps even trillions, of individual intelligences working in tandem. They may simply not believe that any single life or consciousness, no matter how remarkable or spectacular, has any true value. (Now, I grant that Harbinger is an exception to this rule in his fascination with Shepard, but there's no way of knowing whether Harbinger thought this way prior to the events of ME1. It may be a recent development.)



You've said numerous times that humans using bacteria, fungi, plants or insects is not on the same scale as the Reapers harvesting intelligent, sentient beings. How can you know that the Reapers don't feel the exact same way about us? Their consciousness may be elevated to a state so grand that they regard our level of sentience in much the same way as we would regard the consciousness of an ant or worm.



In that light, considering that the Reapers are attempting to transform humanity, to elevate them to their own level, could that not be considered an incredible act of beneficence on their part? If we were to decide that, say, bees, should be granted the gift of sentience and intelligence on a level comparable with humans, wouldn't that be a supreme gift to the bees? Even though the bees might not understand what you're doing to them and react violently to your attempts to change their way of life and everything they've ever known, you KNOW that gifting intelligence to them would ultimately change their role in the world for the better, making them into more than they are now.



Think about it. Isn't that exactly what the Reapers are trying to do to humanity?

[Iakus]

William Adama wrote...

I never really understood the motive that went behind the mass genocides the Reapers periodically committed for the sole purpose of procreation... one would think that hyper advanced intelligences would be FAR more moral than those of smaller minds.

For example, human intelligence has allowed for empathy to be experienced which led to more pro social behaviours given to not only members of our own race but to members of other species as well.

Reapers SHOULD have not only empathy but possibly even greater senses of morality unthinkable or unpercievable to other organic life. Murder/violence for ANY reason should be abhorant for higher beings due to the fact that they understand suffering and death to a greater degree.

Legion/Geth came to this truth on its own and it's a machine... allowing things to self determinate absolves oneself from guilt of evils these beings visit upon themselves. Like if Legion were witnessing a quadruple homocide committed by 2 Vorcha on 4 other Vorcha and did nothing, he is not morally responsible for the actions of the Vorcha. But if her intervenes and kills the 2 Vorcha, he is guilty of murder. Evils done for a sake of good do not exist... if antyhing, higher intelligent peoples scoff at consequentialism and practice modes of deontological morality almost to absolution.

Why would Bioware even impose such a evil persona on beings that are obviously our intellectual superiors? I find it hard to believe that 100% of this race agrees with the destruction and mutilation of galactic civilizations solely for the sake of "building" more Reapers... if antyhing they should have found alternative paths to this problem due to the fact they are vastly more intelligent.

They just seem too... Terminator to me. And don't respond by saying that Reapers are machines, they are ORGANICS mixed with technology so they infact should experience organic sentience albeit on a higher level.

Discuss.

Me 1, Shepard asked some of these very questions to Sovereign:


Shepard:  What do you want from us? Slaves, resources?
Sovereign: : My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence.

Sounds like they are (or think they are) so far more advanced than other species that the reasons they do what they do are incomprehensible to anyone else.  From their point of view, periodically wiping out all intelligent life is a perfectly rational and logical thing to do (from our pov, not so much).  Sovereign seemed to barely concede Shepard and is crew are even sentient let alone intelligent.

Sovereign: "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."

It seems that from their point of view, purely organic life is some kind of aberration, a tumor that periodically grows back.   Whydo they think that?  Who knows.  We know nothing really of Reaper thought process.  To them, they may think they're doing the universe a favor.  Maybe they are so different, physically and mentally from organic races that they can't see them as anything but raw materials.  As the saying goes:  "Aliens are alien"

[Sadja]

Out of curiousity here..
Do you truly believe that a higher level of intelligence does, in fact, beget a more reasonable and gentler beeing?

This one here is thinking that it's the other way around. While we do get a sense of right and wrong (which is something we're being taught by society), being smarter doesn't make us better. With the sort of intelligence you're pointing at comes self awareness, the I. The Me, or in the best case the We (the group, be that family or nation).

Without self awareness, we'd be like the other beings of creation. The lion, for example.
Noble as he is, he's not necessary the smartest out there. Not daft, but... not really there either. It's in his nature to kill, but you won't see him commit genocide on the nearest gazelle population. He will erradicate the young of his rival so the lionesse can have his cubs, but that is survival of the fittest. Which, at a sidenote, is something human nature hasn't discarded just because we are oh-so-smart.

And now let's go to the dolphins and the shinpanzee (or however you spell 'em, I aint native English). You, the OP, said that these creatures show signs of empathy. Now, that might be true, but did you also know that these creatures show signs of cruelty? Did you know that dolphins rape? Did you know that shimpanzees will murder?

I shudder to think what they would be capable of if they had humanities level of self awareness.

No.

With intelligence does not only come empathy. It brings the whole package.

[cruc1al]

Sadja wrote...
This one here is thinking that it's the other way around. While we do get a sense of right and wrong (which is something we're being taught by society), being smarter doesn't make us better. With the sort of intelligence you're pointing at comes self awareness, the I. The Me, or in the best case the We (the group, be that family or nation).

Our sense of morality has roots in our genes, though genes don't of course completely determine how we think. Our brain is where our sense of morality originates, and our brain is the product of both genes and the environment (as always).

What you're saying is that morality is separate from truth. How's that? The smarter you are, the better you are at grasping the truth, and given your free will, the more capable you are of making choices that rest on reality. I think "good" and "evil", though extreme and somewhat subjective terms, are tightly connected to truth.

[Dethateer]

Morality is purely subjective. Let's take you and Hitler for example: you both want what's best for the world, but you see everyone as equal human beings, he didn't, he tried to make the world better by killing those he deemed inferior so that mankind would end up made of stronger individuals. You might try to make the world better by convincing everyone to get along. Both are perfectly valid points of view, only yours is evil in his view, his is evil in yours.

[Wildecker]

William Adama wrote...
Reapers KNOW we are sentient, subjective, emotional entities; yet they feel nothing towards the murder of trillions of comparable entities... I cannot believe that.

So what? Organic life has no issues with killing itself, as has been demonstrated in the past, over and over. And organic life on an individual scale will end, anyway. What do a few years more or less mean compared with inevitable aeons of non-existence?
It's perfectly possible that the Reapers have turned the galaxy into a giant test lab. They set up the relays and the Citadel, wipe the slate clean and wait for a new species to evolve far enough to discover the network. They give them some more time to evolve, then shut down the laboratory, grab as many members of the most successful species of the cycle as they can lay their hands on and turn them into almost immortal constructs like they are, in an attempt to preserve their creativity. Then it's time to sterilize the lab and start the next cycle.
In all probability the current harvest was intended to start millennia ago with the Asari and the Salarians, and only the Prothean manipulation bought us two or three millennia more time.
In this scenario the Collector plague field-tested on Omega is meant to take care of all other species, while humans as the chosen species will be Reaperized (and made immortal, according to the Reaper view). Two thousand years ago it might have been a photo-finish race between Asari and Salarians.

William Adama wrote...
You should respect animals, because you are more intelligent then they are. You have no excuse to acting immoral towards them, you cannot say, "I didn't know any better." 

I'm pretty sure the crow is smarter than the young sparrow that just hatched from its egg. The crow devours the sparrow nonetheless and feels no need to apologize about it.
Savage hunter tribes offer apologies to the spirits of the animals they hunt and kill for a living. But they hunt and kill them. What's immoral about that? They hunt animals because they need their flesh, their furs and sometimes their bones, not for sport.