283 réponses à ce sujet

[javierabegazo]

This last page has absolutely nothing to do with "Reaper Intelligence and Morality". If this can't stay on topic it will get locked

[Dethateer]

It delved into a discussion about human morality.

[Tirigon]

Dethateer wrote...

cruc1al wrote...


The reason the radical muslim's point of view is wrong is because with almost absolute certainty his presumption that the civilians worship the devil is false. End of story.

Last I checked, radical theists of all religions consider people of all other religions (and in some cases atheists) to be devil-worshipers. It is false because you and I are atheists and according to us the devil doesn't exist, not to the radical muslim. To him it's as true as his god.

I didn´t call you a n@zi, but it doesn´t matter anyways.

The fanatical islamist is wrong because his god doesn´t exisst and even if he did that wouldn´t justify murder.

I am perfectly aware that the islamist BELIEVES to be right, but that doesn´t mean he is, it only means he´s a f*cking assclown. You understand me?

[Tirigon]

Dethateer wrote...


You tryin' to make
me play the devil's advocate and support religion? Fine. Here's how it
goes: your religion is the only true one. Everyone else is either
deceived by the devil into worshipping him, or follows a heretical
version of your own religion. Comprehend now?

That is only the case if you´re an educated, libertarian atheist who does not let himself be misguided by deusions and lies.

Otherwise it´s wrong.

[cruc1al]

Dethateer wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

According to the fact that he doesn't have any objective evidence to support his conclusion that everyone else is a devil worshipper. He's either brainwashed, stupid, uneducated, delusional or all of the above, and therefore he cannot be trusted as a reliable source of morality.

You tryin' to make me play the devil's advocate and support religion? Fine. Here's how it goes: your religion is the only true one. Everyone else is either deceived by the devil into worshipping him, or follows a heretical version of your own religion. Comprehend now?

Of course I understand that. What baffles me is why you think that makes his point of view valid? It's not, for reasons I previously stated.

As for the topic... I think our discussion is relevant to the topic. IF we assume, as I've been arguing, that morally valid points of view are unlikely to follow from objectively questionable claims, AND if we assume reapers are much, much more intelligent - or in other words, better at grasping objective truth - THEN it follows that they have a higher capacity to understand which points of view are morally valid. Which points of view are right. Does that make sense?

If the reapers knew what is morally right, it doesn't mean that's what they'll do. As entities with free will (presumably) they could simply strive for their own selfish goals, and ignore moral points of view they know to be true. I don't think we can derive from the superior intelligence of reapers anything to conclude whether depriving the galaxy of advanced civilizations is morally right or wrong; it can only indicate a higher capacity to grasp what is morally right and wrong.

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 mai 2010 - 04:19 .

[Dethateer]

Tirigon wrote...

I didn´t call you a n@zi, but it doesn´t matter anyways.

The fanatical islamist is wrong because his god doesn´t exisst and even if he did that wouldn´t justify murder.

I am perfectly aware that the islamist BELIEVES to be right, but that doesn´t mean he is, it only means he´s a f*cking assclown. You understand me?

You're the one who doesn't understand: ACCORDING TO YOU HIS GOD DOESN'T EXIST and if he did, yes, it would justify the murder of some people to save many more of the muslim's own.
You're incapable of comprehending that your opinion is not absolute, is not objective, and is sure as hell no more or less important than anyone else's, even a ****'s. IT IS ONLY YOUR OPINION.

[Dethateer]

cruc1al wrote...


Of course I understand that. What baffles me is why you think that makes his point of view valid? It's not, for reasons I previously stated.

Extremely simple, actually: it's a point of view. It's no more or less valid than my own.

[Tirigon]

cruc1al wrote...

If the reapers knew what is morally right, it doesn't mean that's what they'll do. As entities with free will (presumably) they could simply strive for their own selfish goals, and ignore moral points of view they know to be true. I don't think we can derive from the superior intelligence of reapers anything to conclude whether depriving the galaxy of advanced civilizations is morally right or wrong; it can only indicate a higher capacity to grasp what is morally right and wrong.

I think Reapers are - from their PoV - a quite peaceful race. As far as we know they do not kill each other or commit crimes against their fellow reapers.

However, their moral does not need to extend on humans. Just like a human can be a pacifist and still kill a fly that annoys him, so can reapers be peaceful and still wipe out entire species. Humans are to them probably not more than insects are to us.

[Tirigon]

Dethateer wrote...


You're the one who doesn't understand: ACCORDING TO YOU HIS GOD DOESN'T EXIST and if he did, yes, it would justify the murder of some people to save many more of the muslim's own.

1) A god´s existence is no matter of opinion but a matter of truth. And the truth is, there is no god.
2) If there was, it would NOT justify murder; The islam is a peaceful religion.

[Dethateer]

Killing the few to save the many ring a bell? Remember I said RADICAL muslim.
Objectively speaking, no, you can't actually say there is no god. You can say that such a being would have no reason to exist, and that none of the currently worshiped gods exist, but you can't really say "there is no god". Yes, I'm aware that made me sound like an agnostic.

To clarify: you can, and rightfully so say that the things attributed to official gods are phyisically impossible, but you cannot discount the possibility of an immensly ancient (compared to us, not the universe itself) and powerful entity that could exist somewhere in this universe, with technology likely advanced enough to give it god-like powers.

Modifié par Dethateer, 14 mai 2010 - 04:37 .

[cruc1al]

Dethateer wrote...

cruc1al wrote...


Of course I understand that. What baffles me is why you think that makes his point of view valid? It's not, for reasons I previously stated.

Extremely simple, actually: it's a point of view. It's no more or less valid than my own.

No it's not valid. He doesn't have ANY evidence or ANY facts on his side. There is nothing that objectively indicates he is right. Therefore there is no reason to believe he is doing the right thing.

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 mai 2010 - 05:05 .

[Dethateer]

He has his holy book. If he trusts it enough, he can believe that everything pointing to his god being a dick *glares at we know which god* is a lie spawned by the devil.

[cruc1al]

Tirigon wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

If the reapers knew what is morally right, it doesn't mean that's what they'll do. As entities with free will (presumably) they could simply strive for their own selfish goals, and ignore moral points of view they know to be true. I don't think we can derive from the superior intelligence of reapers anything to conclude whether depriving the galaxy of advanced civilizations is morally right or wrong; it can only indicate a higher capacity to grasp what is morally right and wrong.

I think Reapers are - from their PoV - a quite peaceful race. As far as we know they do not kill each other or commit crimes against their fellow reapers.

However, their moral does not need to extend on humans. Just like a human can be a pacifist and still kill a fly that annoys him, so can reapers be peaceful and still wipe out entire species. Humans are to them probably not more than insects are to us.

The question isn't whether value of flies relative to humans equates the value of humans to relative to reapers. The question is whether humans are just as valueless as flies in a non-relativistic sense. Human nervous systems are more complex, therefore it is safe to assume we can feel more, think more, achieve more, and that we have a greater degree of free will than flies do. Humans killing humans is just as questionable as reapers killing humans.

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 mai 2010 - 05:13 .

[cruc1al]

Dethateer wrote...

He has his holy book. If he trusts it enough, he can believe that everything pointing to his god being a dick *glares at we know which god* is a lie spawned by the devil.

Yes he can trust the book, and he's wrong in doing so, because the book is not a reliable source of facts.

[Dethateer]

But he trusts it to be. As I said, it's subjective, it's a point of view. Nothing more, nothing less.

[cruc1al]

Dethateer wrote...

But he trusts it to be. As I said, it's subjective, it's a point of view. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yep, it's a point of view that is incorrect. As in not valid.

[Dethateer]

Ok, let's try this again: "you're him. Try to think like him. You have your book. It's the only thing you can trust. You *know* it's true. Everyone else is trying to convince you you're wrong. You're scared, all you know and have is your book, and it tells you that a god is watching over you, that the god will make sure things end well for everyone. You try to obey that god as best you can, casting all doubts from your mind, as to ensure you'll be safe in heaven."

Understand? It's true for him. It's as true as the existence of photons instead of magical beams from the sky for us. From his point of view, it's true. It's not true for you, but it is for him. The point of view is valid for him, just like yours is for you. That's why it's YOUR point of view: because it works for you. It's the way you see the world.

[Tirigon]

Dethateer wrote...

He has his holy book. If he trusts it enough, he can believe that everything pointing to his god being a dick *glares at we know which god* is a lie spawned by the devil.

As you said: He can BELIEVE that.

Doesn´t make it true.


He may - and indeed many do - act as if it were true. But scientific observation has proven that it is not true. So while it might be treated as truth by some rather stupid persons it is not a truth but simply wrong.

Modifié par Tirigon, 14 mai 2010 - 05:38 .

[Tirigon]

cruc1al wrote...

The question isn't whether value of flies relative to humans equates the value of humans to relative to reapers. The question is whether humans are just as valueless as flies in a non-relativistic sense. Human nervous systems are more complex, therefore it is safe to assume we can feel more, think more, achieve more, and that we have a greater degree of free will than flies do. Humans killing humans is just as questionable as reapers killing humans.

From our perspecitve that is so. But as Sovereign says in ME1: The reapers see organic life as a mistake that must be corrected. So from their perspective humans ARE indeed worthless.

[Dethateer]

That goes for pretty much everything. What we know (and I'm aware I'm contradicting most statements I've made around the forum with this) is mostly made up of educated guesses. You can believe the theory of gravity, doesn't mean it's true and the quantum physics one about large bodies creating bubbles in the fabric of space in which smaller bodies get trapped is wrong.

[cruc1al]

Dethateer wrote...

That goes for pretty much everything. What we know (and I'm aware I'm contradicting most statements I've made around the forum with this) is mostly made up of educated guesses. You can believe the theory of gravity, doesn't mean it's true and the quantum physics one about large bodies creating bubbles in the fabric of space in which smaller bodies get trapped is wrong.

There is substantial evidence for gravity, quantum physics etc. scientific. If you think that's an "educated guess", well, you don't know what "educated guess" means.

[cruc1al]

Tirigon wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

The question isn't whether value of flies relative to humans equates the value of humans to relative to reapers. The question is whether humans are just as valueless as flies in a non-relativistic sense. Human nervous systems are more complex, therefore it is safe to assume we can feel more, think more, achieve more, and that we have a greater degree of free will than flies do. Humans killing humans is just as questionable as reapers killing humans.

From our perspecitve that is so. But as Sovereign says in ME1: The reapers see organic life as a mistake that must be corrected. So from their perspective humans ARE indeed worthless.

Are they right?

[cruc1al]

Dethateer wrote...

Ok, let's try this again: "you're him. Try to think like him. You have your book. It's the only thing you can trust. You *know* it's true. Everyone else is trying to convince you you're wrong. You're scared, all you know and have is your book, and it tells you that a god is watching over you, that the god will make sure things end well for everyone. You try to obey that god as best you can, casting all doubts from your mind, as to ensure you'll be safe in heaven."
Understand? It's true for him. It's as true as the existence of photons instead of magical beams from the sky for us. From his point of view, it's true. It's not true for you, but it is for him. The point of view is valid for him, just like yours is for you. That's why it's YOUR point of view: because it works for you. It's the way you see the world.

To the emphasized section.

There is no "true for him". HE'S WRONG. Period. There is no relative truth. There is only true, or not true. There is no evidence his point of view, out of all the possible millions of points of views that contradicts it, is true. Therefore it is practically certain his view is not true regardless of what he believes.

Photons instead of magical beams?! What? Photon is the name we give to the quantifiable unit of light for which there is evidence. Where is the evidence for magical beams from the sky? Nowhere, and just because person X might believe magical beams from the sky exist doesn't make his point of view valid.