283 réponses à ce sujet

[KitsuneRommel]

Adriano87 wrote...

so you can see there were others like Hitler
and Stalin in the History. I've Studied History in the
University for 5 years, some Nations can truly be blamed for their act
of oppression or massacre upon another peoples or Nations.

Yes.
NATIONS. Not the human race as a whole. Didn't Sovereign say that each
of them is a nation? If none of them have come to a different conclusion  about the necessity of a galactic genocide I would say they are more childlike than super intelligent.

[cruc1al]

Adriano87, what are you trying to convey by capitalizing words like "kind", "ruling", "society", "nation", "million", "minion", "oppression", "destroyed" and so on? Is it just the way you write? It's very confusing to read, that's all.

[Khayness]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Adriano87 wrote...

so you can see there were others like Hitler
and Stalin in the History. I've Studied History in the
University for 5 years, some Nations can truly be blamed for their act
of oppression or massacre upon another peoples or Nations.

Yes.
NATIONS. Not the human race as a whole. Didn't Sovereign say that each
of them is a nation? If none of them have come to a different conclusion  about the necessity of a galactic genocide I would say they are more childlike than super intelligent.

Nations? Are you a dimwit? Leadership =/= Nations. Collective guilt is one of the most ridiculous and harmful terms we came up with in the past century.

[PillarBiter]

1) pinning human emotions/ trains of thought on aliens is egocentric.



2) My theory is that reapers reproduce by using all the aliens they conquer (ie, the human reaper)



3) them -> big bully with magnifying lens

us -> ant



offtopic then: to me, if you have to choose to kill 2 people to save three, or all die, i think the choce is easy. the one with the most people alive.

[demicraftgod]

 First of all, I would like to argue that morality does not "automatically" arise when we reach certain level of intelligence. Morality is a social construct, having certain level(and/or beyond) of intelligence could help in developing moral concepts/theories. So, by saying that Reapers are intelligent does not automatically make them moral(perhaps they deem morality as something that ought to be abandoned, useless in their society, if Reapers have one AND is like ours).

Secondly, "empathy" is a kind of emotion. You "feel" empathy toward other humans or life form. However, you do not "THINK(as intelligence means the ability to comprehend/interpret information coming from both external and within)" empathy toward other humans or life form. The question rests on can you give a valid argument that the rationale of empathy IS intelligence. Here I would assume that intelligence is mainly rooted in logic(personally believe that it is rooted in logic and nothing else). 

As far as Geth is concerned. I would use the Chinese room thought experiment. Here I will just give a concise version of what it entails..."a computer can never be properly described as having a "mind" or "understanding", regardless of how intelligently it may behave." Geth may be incredibily efficient at processing information and output appropriate response. But does that mean that they "THINK" or have "MENTAL STATES/PROCESSES" like us? Personally I think not. Then again, this IS a subject of dispute in the area of AI and philosophy of mind. 

And to your last query...what "EVIL" are you speaking of. EVIL in terms of human perspectives? Unless you believe there is OBJECTIVE "evil". Then I have to ask, what is THAT? If there is NO objective evil, then because what you see as evil does not mean that it REALLY is. After all, as you pointed out yourself, the Reapers are "vastly more intelligent". So, why is not a possibility that at their LEVEL of thinking, what they do seems totally reasonable and even possibly MORAL to them?
 

[KitsuneRommel]

Khayness wrote...

Nations? Are you a dimwit? Leadership =/= Nations. Collective guilt is one of the most ridiculous and harmful terms we came up with in the past century.

Thank you for your kind words, sir. I even let the moderators know how nice you are. You didn't seem to understand that I was merely refuting his point as invalid since neither us nor the reapers are a single nation. Personally I don't feel guilt over things that happened before my time or things that I had no influence over.

[Tirigon]

Khayness wrote...


Nations? Are you a dimwit? Leadership =/= Nations. Collective guilt is one of the most ridiculous and harmful terms we came up with in the past century.

In fact, collective guilt is quite real. I think a nation is to blame for following their leaders. They could have revolted or assassinated them if the leaders are people like Hitler and Stalin. But if they follow them - and many even worshipped them - then they are to blame for these leader´s crimes too.

Humans are not robots, they have a free will. If they decide to follow a tyrant they are also responsible for crimes committed in this tyrant´s name.

Modifié par Tirigon, 16 mai 2010 - 11:32 .

[demicraftgod]

Khayness wrote...

All must fall upon Entropy's blade. The time nears when it will be necessary to breach the walls of Creation. Order will be put to the sword. Its chains will be broken. The Multiverse will be unmade.

Ahh, the famous Coaxmetal quote...and I would follow up by saying..."Interesting philosophy, although I wondered if even the balmy Xaositects would willingly embrace chaos this completely."

[demicraftgod]

Adriano87 wrote...

the only thing that is Worthy is Morality ... other things are spiritual folly or material craps

if you use "praiseworthy" instead of worthy...I would have launched a whole counter stoicism argument. Just in case you don't know what I am talking about, it comes from this syllogism..."All good is praiseworthy; All praiseworthy is moral; thus all good is moral." 

[demicraftgod]

Adriano87 wrote...

@demicraftgod
Killing for a galactic schedule in a merciless way, just to save the Reapers Strength from having a threat that endangers them ... is there any objection, that this action isn't evil? (I'm not talking about Satan or Diablo !). There are acts consider as Moral, acts that are nor Moral neither Immoral and acts that are Immoral. Immoral acts that do damage to others may be defined as Evil.
other matter is that the Reapers are Cyborg, it forces to change the subject about their thinking.

Where exactly did you learn that their killing is to "save the Reapers strength from having a threat that endangers them"? There is NOTHING that endangers them...according to Sovereign's answer...as I quote iakus on this...

Shepard:  What do you want from us? Slaves, resources? 
Sovereign: : My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence. 

Sovereign: "Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."

[Khayness]

Tirigon wrote...

In fact, collective guilt is quite real. I think a nation is to blame for following their leaders. They could have revolted or assassinated them if the leaders are people like Hitler and Stalin. But if they follow them - and many even worshipped them - then they are to blame for these leader´s crimes too.

Humans are not robots, they have a free will. If they decide to follow a tyrant they are also responsible for crimes committed in this tyrant´s name.

They pretty much sized power with not democratic means, and they held onto it by violence and terror, not with legal democratic concensus. Guess thats why they call it dictatorship. They opressed their opposition, and there were assasination attempts by the way.

I can list examples how a group of people sized power and acted on behalf of their interest and not of their nation, but I don't want to ninja this topic more than necessary.

@KitsuneRommel: You are very welcome, and thanks for the attention, however that awfully nasty word wasn't targeted at you.

[KitsuneRommel]

Tirigon wrote...

In fact, collective guilt is quite real. I
think a nation is to blame for following their leaders. They could have
revolted or assassinated them if the leaders are people like Hitler and
Stalin.

Are you willing to die for a possibility of change?

Modifié par KitsuneRommel, 16 mai 2010 - 12:29 .

[Erinlana]

Well the name says it all "reapers" Bringer of Death ,

[demicraftgod]

Adriano87 wrote...

that was my Assumption (Theory) about the reapers

I am assuming that this is answering my previous post(if not ignore this completely).

So...you don't argue on "assumptive" ground. To make an argument you have to do so on practical ground(or at least start on practical round then extend to theoretical realm). The reason why moral philosophy is so hotly debated is because the things that we talk about in moral philosophy is actually things that happen in our every day lives. We may do some weird or over simplified thought experiments but that has their basis in practical things people have been experiencing over the course of human history. 

Of course, you can argue that your assumption is of instrumental value, then you can ignore what I just said. 

Anyways...I am getting too philosophical...

[Annihilator27]

v1K0 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

I think the answer to this question is in statements made by Harbinger throughout ME2 but most particularly in the cutscene that opens the Horizon mission:

"We are the harbingers of their perfection. Prepare these humans for ascension."

Reapers think they're doing us a favor.

From that cutscene, you'd swear the Reapers are doing something good. You never know...

"They will be as we are" "We are your salvation through destruction"  ME3 is going to be interesting. Some of you guys are putting way too much thought into this subject. I dont think they feel remorse for wiping out entire cicvilizations,You see how big that fleet was at the end? Let civilization rise, Go and collect to make more reapers, and then prepare for the next cycle.I do wonder if It'll be possible to reason with them.

[Tirigon]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

In fact, collective guilt is quite real. I
think a nation is to blame for following their leaders. They could have
revolted or assassinated them if the leaders are people like Hitler and
Stalin.

Are you willing to die for a possibility of change?

Of course not. That´s why it´s COLLECTIVE guilt. Single people are not to blame for a tyrant´s crimes unless they were part of those who helped the tyrant staying in power.

But the people as a whole is.

[cruc1al]

Anyone feel like there's going to be some sort of alliance between humans and reapers that don't agree with Harbringer? Sort of reaper rebels? Like the alliance between humans and cylon rebels in BSG?

[Icinix]

cruc1al wrote...

Anyone feel like there's going to be some sort of alliance between humans and reapers that don't agree with Harbringer? Sort of reaper rebels? Like the alliance between humans and cylon rebels in BSG?

That would be the jumping of the shark.
The groans of pain from Mass Effect fans across the world would be so loud small ripples would be felt on Jupiter.

No one at BioWare would do that, Mass Effect has tried to be innovative with it's story, it's fallen in a few places, but overall the scope and originality has been good.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

In fact, collective guilt is quite real. I
think a nation is to blame for following their leaders. They could have
revolted or assassinated them if the leaders are people like Hitler and
Stalin.

Are you willing to die for a possibility of change?

Of course not. That´s why it´s COLLECTIVE guilt. Single people are not to blame for a tyrant´s crimes unless they were part of those who helped the tyrant staying in power.

But the people as a whole is.

Remember the context when the term was created. It was an excuse for the British to start terror bombing campaigns on the German people, because they were held responsable for their government. Same logic applied to the atomic bombing of Japan. Stalin definately used that logic to allow his troops to rape their way to Berlin.
Same logic is applied to "collective punishment".
 
Collective guilt may exist. But to use it to justify collective punishment and mass murder (which is what it was historically used for) may be a quite dangerous belief.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mai 2010 - 09:55 .

[Annihilator27]

cruc1al wrote...

Anyone feel like there's going to be some sort of alliance between humans and reapers that don't agree with Harbringer? Sort of reaper rebels? Like the alliance between humans and cylon rebels in BSG?

That would be interesting, Reapers fighting amongst themselves.