120 réponses à ce sujet

[uberdowzen]

The current draft:

Gameplay:

• More interesting combat situations and less just shooting enemies (e.g. the fuel tanks in Zaeed's mission or Biotic improving gas)
• Overheating should be brought back in some way, but without removing thermal clips
• A vehicle of some sort needs to be implemented into the main game, not just as DLC.
• Drastically improve planet scanning (only a vague concern as you seem to be on top of this in patches, good job with that by the way).
• Create a special weapon selection screen rather than just using the standard interface and maybe combine all the interfaces into one tabbed interface.
• Keep the research element but give it a special interface which shows how weapons advance etc (again rather than just using the standard interface), similar to an RTS tech tree.
• Improve the levelling system specifically, remove the dead levels where you can't level up.
• Make it easier to play a neutral character and make persuades/intimidates work like they did in ME1 (it's too easy to do persuades).
• Expand upon the current weapon system, allowing you to customise the look of weapons (colours and patterns like armor) and install mods, that you either buy or find, at the start of the mission (it's be awesome if the mods changed the appearance of the weapons).
• Bring back Omnitools and Biotic amps
• Helmet Toggle (doesn't appear in cinematics unless in oxygen-less environment, toggle button for during gameplay)
• More sets of armor (don't have to be customisable) in the game rather than just DLC.
• Make all character wear armor into battle (it looks a bit ridiculous having Miranda go into combat with that skin tight suit) and make the alternate armor sets which are unlocked have seperate bonuses.
• Different targetting reticules for different weapons.
• Large vehicle environments where you can explore (but way more detailed and smaller than uncharted worlds)
• Rather than visting massive locations like the citadel, larger areas could be split up, like Denerim in DAO, so you vist many smaller areas.

Artistic/General Feel:

• Get rid of the Mission Complete screens.
• More ambient companion dialogue
• More lifelike world with NPC routines etc and make NPCs react to your alignment (I mean in ME2 your face cracks and you get all evil, yet no one cares).
• Stronger plot (almost a cert)
• More story element changes based on save games (maybe larger quests that you might or might not get based on choices, rather than just emails and short sidequests).
• No more wearing clothes into battle for companions, have custom armor suits for them (I do understand that part of the reason for this is so the companions are instantly recognizable at a glance).

I have recently been discussing ME2 in another thread, "Dissapointment With Mass Effect 2" and (being from the pro-ME2 side of the fence) in the course of arguing I came up with a list of the issues that I thought Bioware needed to deal with to make ME3 the greatest of the trilogy. This is the original list:

• Ditch, or drastically improve planet scanning

• Create a special weapon selection screen rather than just using the standard interface

• Downplay the upgrade element (don't remove it though) and give it a special upgrade interface which shows how weapons advance etc (again rather than just using the standard interface)

• Stronger plot (almost a cert)

• Improve the levelling system (it's not very satisfying at all) specifically, remove the dead levels where you can't level up.

• Tie persuades to a power (I was thinking that they could do this Dragon Age style, so a basic persuade requires 1 point in your class power, a slightly harder one require 2 etc, in addition to requiring your paragon/renegade points to be at a certain point)

• Expand upon the current weapon system, allowing you to customise the look of weapons and install mods, that you either buy or find, at the start of the mission.

• Bring back Omnitools and Biotic amps (maybe just have it so that different amps provide bonuses to different powers)

• Helmet Toggle

• More sets of armor in the game rather than just DLC.

• No more wearing clothes into battle for companions, have custom armor suits for them

Amazed at how the list seemed to please everyone, I thought that maybe, based on feedback and suggestions, I could polish up this list to be a sort of compromise list that will satisfy everyone. Bare in mind that I personally don't think we're here to tell Bioware how to fix these issues (for two reasons, first, potential ideas which sound great on paper often don't work so well in practice and second, honestly, they're much better at it than we are) although it's fine to post suggestions, they just won't get put on the final list.

The way I'm going to do this is I'll edit this first post so that it has the current draft of the list. Based on suggestions and discussions, I'll add to it and improve it. Also, the usual rules, no flaming, hating on other people's opinions and be open to new ideas. Let the discussion commence...[*]

Modifié par uberdowzen, 06 juin 2010 - 10:32 .

[Dick Delaware]

Personally, I don't mind the current system of awarding paragon/renegade points based on whether your actions. The only problem here is implementation at times: I get paragon points for saying some friendly off-hand comment, even if I do something completely cold-blooded five minutes later.



Instead, a better solution IMO would be just giving more paragon/renegade points per quest solution. That way, you are either ruthless and pragmatic/idealistic based more on your actions rather on whether you've disagreed with a crew member on which season of Lost was the best. This opens some interesting doors because even though you may have been polite and complimentary NPC, you can end up deceiving them later on. Likewise, you can spend the quest intimidating someone to back down, but without the intention of killing them unless you absolutely have to.



Also, IIRC in the class powers give you extra paragon/renegade points based on a proportion of the amount you already have. This isn't good design, because a player is penalized for taking a very beneficial power now instead of later, where it will confer a bigger benefit. Instead, I think it would be better if your paragon/renegade points went up by a fixed amount instead.

[darknoon5]

I don't really like the paragon/renegade point system, as it makes it difficult to play a paragade/renagon effectively, where as in KoTOR you could do whatever you want. You certainly shouldn't have to level up your morality points, ME2 had it right.

[Dethateer]

Except that the issue with the current system is that it doesn't allow people to play a neutral character and keep all of the squadmates.

[uberdowzen]

Dick Delaware wrote...

Personally, I don't mind the current system of awarding paragon/renegade points based on whether your actions. The only problem here is implementation at times: I get paragon points for saying some friendly off-hand comment, even if I do something completely cold-blooded five minutes later.

Instead, a better solution IMO would be just giving more paragon/renegade points per quest solution. That way, you are either ruthless and pragmatic/idealistic based more on your actions rather on whether you've disagreed with a crew member on which season of Lost was the best. This opens some interesting doors because even though you may have been polite and complimentary NPC, you can end up deceiving them later on. Likewise, you can spend the quest intimidating someone to back down, but without the intention of killing them unless you absolutely have to.

Also, IIRC in the class powers give you extra paragon/renegade points based on a proportion of the amount you already have. This isn't good design, because a player is penalized for taking a very beneficial power now instead of later, where it will confer a bigger benefit. Instead, I think it would be better if your paragon/renegade points went up by a fixed amount instead.

The problem I have with the current system is that on my first playthrough of ME2, there was only 1 persuade  I couldn't do (and I was able to go back later and do it once I'd got my score up a bit). The idea I've come up with definetly is not perfect and will proably change. I like your idea though. Keep 'em coming.

[uberdowzen]

Dethateer wrote...

Except that the issue with the current system is that it doesn't allow people to play a neutral character and keep all of the squadmates.

How many people play completely neutrel characters though. How about this:

You have a persuade bar with 4 sections, each section unlocks a new set of persuades. You have to have your class power and paragon/renegade points at a high enough level to fill up the bar. The main problem I see with this though is that it only provides 4 levels of persuade.

Better systems would be appreciated.

[Dethateer]

That still means that I, as a guy who's a dick to enemies but can't not help someone in need (and there are more than a few people who need help in this game) will still lose squadmates. Life isn't black and white, it's grey. Paragon and Renegade ARE black and white. Which one is which is highly subjective, of course, but face it, they're simply renamed good/evil.

[Dick Delaware]

Dethateer wrote...

Except that the issue with the current system is that it doesn't allow people to play a neutral character and keep all of the squadmates.

Quest solutions in both games would fall under paragon or renagade, however. This is true in both games - whenever you completed a quest, you'd be awarded paragon or renegade points. All I'm suggesting is that it would be better if points were awarded based on your actions (and supplemented by powers) rather than comments that you might make.

You can still have a character with roughly similar amounts of paragon and renegade points with this though, as they're not mutually exclusive like lightside / darkside.

Honestly, I would prefer no karma system at all, but it's part of the ME setting, so it's not going away. I'd rather have something like a reputation system a la Fallout as it's more reactive to the player. You can be hailed as a saint in one town but a complete bastard somewhere else.

EDIT: It's not a perfect solution, but I think that ME2's paragon/renegade point system is fine, all it needs is some better implementation. I'm not a fan of the binary nature of speech skills in most games, where all you have to do is plug in x amount of points and you get any NPC you like to agree with you. Not very interactive. It's the easiest to implement, certainly, but it's just kinda boring.

Modifié par Dick Delaware, 14 mai 2010 - 07:51 .

[bas273]

Dethateer wrote...

Except that the issue with the current system is that it doesn't allow people to play a neutral character and keep all of the squadmates.

Yeah I'm roleplaying a Shepard who's both Paragon and Renegade. There should be 'Neutral' dialogue options (like Charm and Intimidate) for neutral characters (less than 50% Paragon/Renegade).

It fits Shepard imo. I still help people but I'm also really angry of what happened in ME1 and ME2 (the Council...) so sometimes I use some violence (or don't show mercy to my enemies).

[khevan]

I've been noodling around for a bit about a persuade/intimidate system that I think would work well, and also fit in with ME's paragon/renegade system.

First, remove the bonus to paragon/renegade from the class passive skill, and change it to a bonus to your persuade skill. Just as an example, the actual system doesn't have to work exactly this way, but it's a way to explain what I have in mind: Every level in your class skill gives you a +10 to your persuade check. The Paragon/Renegade meters would have a certain number of "boxes", say 6. Each box gives a +10 to the check. The most difficult check would need a score of roughly 80-90. This way, you can max your class skill and be able to pass most lower level persuasion checks, and only the toughest checks would require you to lean a certain way.  5 out of 6 boxes in either Paragon/Renegade plus the passive skill would let you pass the toughest check in the game.  You'd have to be mostly Paragon or Renegade to do this, but it gives some wiggle room for the random interrupt you just can't pass up.

As far as squadmates go, this would be seperate from the persuasion system, but linked to it at the same time. Again, an example:

Much like DA:O, squadmates have a loyalty meter. You do stuff to help them, their meter goes up. You talk to them, their meter goes up, etc. Again, there are six levels to the loyalty meters, each giving a +10 bonus. However, the Renegade/Paragon bars do not give bonuses to conversation checks with your squad. It's based on their loyalty to you and on your innate persuasiveness (your class skill). This way, you can be a schizophrenic in your Renegade/Paragon with badguys and other NPCs, but you can still deal with your squad.

Yeah, it's a bit complicated, but it shouldn't be too bad. Criticisms welcomed. Let me know what you think.

Modifié par khevan, 14 mai 2010 - 08:06 .

[Dethateer]

And... that still doesn't dodge the issue of dialogue options being artificially limited. If I'm a neutral character, I wouldn't be able to give a Turian 10k credits for a ship because I haven't been nice enough up until that point.

[khevan]

^Except that that would likely be a lower level check, thus having your passive skill up would let you pass a check at 40, which is roughly halfway up the scale. It keeps certain dialogue options from being artificially limited, while keeping the system at least somewhat consistent to what's come before.

[Dethateer]

It was a random example. Artificial limits would still be imposed, say TIM wants to kill himself, and you can Paragon him out of it, but it requires 90%, and you're neutral, because you're nice to friends and a total a**hole to enemies. You wouldn't be able to talk him out of it, because "it would be out of character" (protip: no, it wouldn't).

[khevan]

Dethateer wrote...

It was a random example. Artificial limits would still be imposed, say TIM wants to kill himself, and you can Paragon him out of it, but it requires 90%, and you're neutral, because you're nice to friends and a total a**hole to enemies. You wouldn't be able to talk him out of it, because "it would be out of character" (protip: no, it wouldn't).

You do have a point.  Like I said, I was noodling around.  I remember thinking about something in my idea to limit this type of thing, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was.  Lemme try to remember what it was.  I'll get back to ya.

[TheBronzeDon]

I like this list better than the Mass Effect 3 Wishlist original post which I think is more what the OP of the thread wants.

[khevan]

I remember what I was thinking about earlier. I had actually realized that the only way to remove those artificial limits on conversation choices is to remove the Paragon/Renegade system from the choices themselves. However, Mass Effect is pretty much stuck with the Paragon/Renegade system, I very very much doubt they're going to change that this far into the trilogy. So, any ideas for a conversation system have to work within the "morality" system. I think my idea does as much as is possible to mitigate the flaws in the P/R system, while keeping the conversation choices relevant. Going much further just gives you an "I win" button for persuading people.

[uberdowzen]

Ok, so my idea for paragon/renegade wouldn't work. I do like the idea of a neutral option (or some way of making neutral character plausible) but I think a neutral persuade option takes some of the impact away from the idea that sometimes you have to make tough choices, even as a neutral character.

[uberdowzen]

TheBronzeDon wrote...

I like this list better than the Mass Effect 3 Wishlist original post which I think is more what the OP of the thread wants.

No, I just thought that it'd be better to have a list of compromises rather than the other suggestion forums where the pro-ME2 want one thing, the anti-ME2 people want another and in the end Bioware just ignores all the suggestions. I think it'd be great to find the middle ground.

[uberdowzen]

Also, forgot to mention, the eventual goal of this list is to submit it to Bioware for their consideration.

[Gaddmeister]

uberdowzen wrote...

The current draft:


Improve the levelling system (it's not very satisfying at all) specifically, remove the dead levels where you can't level up

What do you mean here exactly? That you should have no level cap and be able to fill up all skills? Or that you should be able to level up and get a new skill level each time you level up? I like the fact that you cannot level up every time, that you have to save points and make choices whether to upgrade to a level 2 or save points for a level 4 upgrade on another skill. The only thing I don't like is the flawed squad ammo for team mates.

[uberdowzen]

Gaddmeister wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

The current draft:


Improve the levelling system (it's not very satisfying at all) specifically, remove the dead levels where you can't level up

What do you mean here exactly? That you should have no level cap and be able to fill up all skills? Or that you should be able to level up and get a new skill level each time you level up? I like the fact that you cannot level up every time, that you have to save points and make choices whether to upgrade to a level 2 or save points for a level 4 upgrade on another skill. The only thing I don't like is the flawed squad ammo for team mates.

That point is referring to later in the game, when you need, say, 4 points to max out a skill, but it could take up to 4 levels to get the required number of points. This has been brought up before as being unsatisfying (I mean at least in ME1's system you could always spend your points, even if it made very little difference to your character). It's definetly not referring to wanting to max out every skill (in fact quite the opposite, I think pretty much everyone is in agreement that we want a system that creates more diverse characters).

[Lumikki]

Here is some of my addional noticed for OP.



* The planet vehicle exploration back. Not as strong what it was in ME1, but like 20-30% of missions. I really liked those beautiful landscapes where I was driving Mako in planets.



* Also some more fluffy RPG elements would be good. I don't mean missions, but small interaction situation with npcs to improve the feeling that Shepard actions are affecting the world.

[Chuvvy]

Get rid of Paragon/Renegade all together. It's stupid, persuade/intimidate should be more like DAO or Fallout.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Am I the only one who HATES the conversation loop bug? Well, maybe it's not a bug in the literal sense, but it's just so annoying and unrealistic. It was there in ME1, but to a far lesser extent. Now in ME2 it's all over the place.



That said, I approve of the OP's wishlist.

[SantosCapela]

uberdowzen wrote...

Ditch, or drastically improve planet scanning

Not ditch since it makes sense, however, one should be able to delegate the job to someone else or something other as is done with the fish.

uberdowzen wrote...
Create a special weapon selection screen rather than just using the standard interface

Nothing against if done right

uberdowzen wrote...
Downplay the upgrade element (don't remove it though) and give it a special upgrade interface which shows how weapons advance etc (again rather than just using the standard interface)

If the interface is good I do support this and the customization of weapons, however, I don't think upgrades should be downplayed. As I see it upgrades are a wonderful substitution to the I - X levels that existed in me1. Something like a global enhancement to the weapon characteristics. I would like however to have some more specific enhancements from which I could choose like the weapons slots that existed in me1. These could be obtained both by investigation or by commerce.

uberdowzen wrote...
Improve the levelling system (it's not very satisfying at all) specifically, remove the dead levels where you can't level up.

I'm not against the leveling system and I prefer it to me1. I do like that the usage of points is not "linear", meaning that progressing through an ability will cost more points. As such I'm not against the dead levels and I like the idea if there is a option of using those dead levels with a redistribution of points through the abilities. Something like choosing between maximizing an ability and end with dead levels or distribute those points through other abilities and not end with dead points.

uberdowzen wrote...
Make it easier to play a neutral character and make persuades/intimidates harder to do.

Hm? Don't know what you mean since a neutral character would benefit from easier persuades/intimidates... I do think "moral" should affect the persuades/intimidates and I think that pure renegade, paragon or neutral paths should have an effect on possible choices. I'm against a charm and intimidate ability, however, I wouldn't mind a single ability that could compensate more neutral paths in order to make such decisions more available two neutral characters. Basically I think moral paths should have consequences in some way and that trying to surpass those consequence should cost a player something.

uberdowzen wrote...
Expand upon the current weapon system, allowing you to customise the look of weapons and install mods, that you either buy or find, at the start of the mission.

Said something above about this.

uberdowzen wrote...
Bring back Omnitools and Biotic amps (maybe just have it so that different amps provide bonuses to different powers)
Helmet Toggle
More sets of armor in the game rather than just DLC.
No more wearing clothes into battle for companions, have custom armor suits for them

Yeah, sure in all these.

Modifié par SantosCapela, 14 mai 2010 - 01:16 .