68 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Smurf]

I think the threads will die down when the arbiters of future realism get off their high horse



btw - not for DW in ME3 - more rpg elements and great story

[javierabegazo]

The thing is, Master Smurf, Shepard would just look stupid strafing around with both his arms extended outward, firing both guns.



If the protagonist of Mass Effect was Jet Lee, then you know, maybe I'd consider it. But the idea of seeing a war veteran running around with two pistols is just silly. That stuff (I feel) belongs with 1st person shooters, and if it is in a 3rd person shooter, then it belongs in a game with over the top visuals and acrobatics like WET

[Tirigon]

Dual wielding makes no sense, but it´d be fun to dual-wield a grenade launcher to blow hell up.

[Dethateer]

I'd like dual Collector Particle Beams, to be honest. Thing already mows down everything, if you had two...

[Master Smurf]

I see where you are coming from Javier but being devils advocate I can say that Shep already can cloak, biotic charge, telekinetically manipulate enemies, freeze and shatter them and fire a miniature "nuke" inside ships and enclosed areas.

Then you look at his/her stylised sidekicks - Jack, Samara, Thane, Kasumi and it isnt a stretch of the imagination - its actually way more plausible than half of what is taking place.



Say you oppose it or dislike it (which you did) but trying to claim some superiority in the debate is silly.

[javierabegazo]

Master Smurf wrote...

I see where you are coming from Javier but being devils advocate I can say that Shep already can cloak, biotic charge, telekinetically manipulate enemies, freeze and shatter them and fire a miniature "nuke" inside ships and enclosed areas.
Then you look at his/her stylised sidekicks - Jack, Samara, Thane, Kasumi and it isnt a stretch of the imagination - its actually way more plausible than half of what is taking place.

Say you oppose it or dislike it (which you did) but trying to claim some superiority in the debate is silly.

All of those, cloaking, Biotics, are explained through the lore of the codex, such as sci-fi esque tech and Eezo exposure. The "nuke" is a hyper accelerated HE shell, and we don't know how that would impact a Ship's hull integrity.

Freezing and shattering isn't so outlandish with all the tech.

I'm not talking "realistically"
I'm talking "Stylistically", DW in Mass Effect would look awful, out of place. It clashes like achovies and fruit. Both have their places.

it would be like having Kasumi's special ability be "throwing "Pulse shurikens". There's a reason why BioWare didn't do that. Would it be cool? Sure. Does it fit? No.

Modifié par javierabegazo, 14 mai 2010 - 04:41 .

[Master Smurf]

Last post on the subject - read the codex for Locusts, omni tool, visors etc - it would fit.

Also stylistically you just jumped over my whole mention of the other characters.



Ok fine - Shep is a "soldier" fine so he wouldnt (wrong assumption based on present not future reality) but if you could point two weapons at an enemy without losing accuracy for whatever reason (biotic or electronic) wouldnt you ?? - and dont say use an Assault rifle because Shep obviously "cant" in certain realities.

I would just take my Locust and Hand Cannon - use my mental ability or targeting software and mow through enemies (Shields and Armor) - The truth is the only reason you wouldnt is ammo - which has now been introduced in ME2

[Dethateer]

Using two weapons at once means you have one less hand for other things you might need to do in combat, including, but not limited to, reloading/drawing sidearms.

[javierabegazo]

Master Smurf wrote...

Last post on the subject - read the codex for Locusts, omni tool, visors etc - it would fit.
Also stylistically you just jumped over my whole mention of the other characters.

Ok fine - Shep is a "soldier" fine so he wouldnt (wrong assumption based on present not future reality) but if you could point two weapons at an enemy without losing accuracy for whatever reason (biotic or electronic) wouldnt you ?? - and dont say use an Assault rifle because Shep obviously "cant" in certain realities.
I would just take my Locust and Hand Cannon - use my mental ability or targeting software and mow through enemies (Shields and Armor) - The truth is the only reason you wouldnt is ammo - which has now been introduced in ME2

Then that just blows the tactical advantage of either out of the water and there's no point in selecting one or the other because having both is just so obviously superior. The only way to make up for it would be to make the accuracy incredibly unstable, and the only way then to make that a viable way of combat would be to be in close quarters to the enemy.

Then how would Shepard reload?

Would he do it in the silly magical cliche 1st person shooter way, where he just rubs the guns against his hips and magically ejects the heatsink?

DW would just not work for the animations of Shepard in Mass Effect. With HALO, it's fine, you never see your own body, you just see two floating hands and they disappear when you reload one weapon. That's not the case with ME

[Master Smurf]

OK - so a longer reload time - as you have to reload each weapon - not much different than the Claymore and you could potentially aim at multiple targets though that may be stretching it but plausible



Shep would reload one at a time (you live in cover anyway) but didnt see anyone complaining when the universe had no reload.

[TJSolo]

Not only have you doubled your reload time in order to DW pistols you have an additional 3 times you have to holster/draw your pistols before continuing with a fight.

[Sildroni]

javierabegazo wrote...

Then that just blows the tactical advantage of either out of the water and there's no point in selecting one or the other because having both is just so obviously superior. The only way to make up for it would be to make the accuracy incredibly unstable, and the only way then to make that a viable way of combat would be to be in close quarters to the enemy.

Then how would Shepard reload?

Would he do it in the silly magical cliche 1st person shooter way, where he just rubs the guns against his hips and magically ejects the heatsink?

DW would just not work for the animations of Shepard in Mass Effect. With HALO, it's fine, you never see your own body, you just see two floating hands and they disappear when you reload one weapon. That's not the case with ME

ME2 added the reload mechanic to deal with the 'horrible' overheating issue from ME1.  Specter grade X weapons with X grade heatsinks/stabilizers could be fired continuously (at least from the AR I was using).

Its not a move forward, but a move back based on the science and totally based on gameplay mechanics not any kind of scientific evolution.  Popping a heatsink after 20 rounds being shot isn't better science than adding heat dissipation to a weapon giving it unlimited ammo and firing capability.

Enough tech/nano tech could interface you and your hardsuit with those flashy 'interfaces' we're all so fond of wearing and micro adjust your aim (even if it was on your offhand to give you some supressing fire) to make dual weilding viable;
Shep's got plenty of upgrades installed.

Besides - if every bullet explodes in a 3 ft radius with incindiary fire who needs to be super accurate?

The real limitation is where you'd fit all the guns you could dw among the ones you couldn't on your back...

[Kangasniemi]

So you want Shepard to wear a tank top and have huge rack. Lets go do some treasure hunting and raid some tombs.



Dual wielding is the most childish power fantasy there is. Every game that uses dual wield is horrific teen power fantasy from start to finish.



And some of you are trying to defend dual wielding by saying that some one jammed a laptop in Shepard's head and he should be able to track gazillion of targets at once. Well why the hell to stop at retarded dual wield? Lets make Shepard a ****ing Battle Mech! And I mean make him into a Battle Mech, not make him pilot one. I mean how cool would it be to have a 17 m high, 100 ton ultimate killer Shepard who would kill any one. And that thing would have huge ass mass drivers as arms so that would indeed dual wield! And that thing wouldn't need to take cover from anything!

A romance with Battle Mech Shepard would be a bit difficult but I'm sure BW could whip something up, and Mech Shep could have some "extensions".



That would be ****ing awesome and that would make a hell of a lot more sense than some lame ass John Woo teenage power fantasy.

[Sildroni]

Not defending DW - just picking apart the reasons that its not "realistic".



I have never shot 2 pistols at the same time - does not appeal to me in the real world.



I have also never been a genetically and artificially enhanced human super soldier firing weapons that use Mass Effect fields to accellerate small pieces of metal as projectiles.



Anything BW wants to be 'real' can be real. If they made it ALL 'real' like the arguments against dual wielding we probably wouldn't be playing.

[emanziboy]

The biggest criticism you can make about dual wielding is that it adds nothing to gameplay. Why include dual wielding that can let you fire faster with more rounds and be less accurate when you can just make a gun with these same characteristics? I know next to nothing about how games are built, but I've got to imsgine adding a new weapon takes up a lot less memory than doing more combat animations that reflect the fact that your holding two weapons.

The only game that tried to make dual wielding feel unique and and not feel tacked on was in the Halo games, and it still sucked. There were different rules for gameplay when you were dual wielding, such as not being able to throw grenades and being forced to drop the weapon in your off hand when you changed weapons or when you melee. However, being able to throw grenades and melee on the fly were part of what made Halo's gameplay so fun. Dual wielding hurt Halo's gameplay, so Bungie has been gradually de-emphasizing it over the past few games to the point where it's not even going to be in Reach.

The moral of this story?
Dual Wielding sucks.

[MaaZeus]

Those who are saying that dual wielding pistols is dumb and unrealistic, go and take a look again at the old west. From what I know dual wielding revolvers was not too uncommon then. However, point was not fire both at the same time in hollywood style, (that, while cool looking, is definetly dumb) but to double your ammo capacity, can sustain a firefights longer before stopping to reload. Obviously reloading takes twice as long too but thats the risk he takes if he wants to reload both guns.

Miranda in that picture has the right idea. She concentrates using one pistol and having another ready incase the one runs out of thermalclip.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 14 mai 2010 - 10:32 .

[emanziboy]

MaaZeus wrote...

Those who are saying that dual wielding pistols is dumb and unrealistic, go and take a look again at the old west. From what I know dual wielding revolvers was not too uncommon then. However, point was not fire both at the same time in hollywood style, (that, while cool looking, is definetly dumb) but to double your ammo capacity, can sustain a firefights longer before stopping to reload. Obviously reloading takes twice as long too but thats the risk he takes if he wants to reload both guns.

Miranda in that picture has the right idea. She concentrates using one pistol and having another ready incase the one runs out of thermalclip.

It would be so much simpler to just have an upgrade that doubles your clip's capacity. Same effect without having to go through all the difficulties of adding dual wielding into the game.

[Kangasniemi]

MaaZeus wrote...

Those who are saying that dual wielding pistols is dumb and unrealistic, go and take a look again at the old west. From what I know dual wielding revolvers was not too uncommon then. However, point was not fire both at the same time in hollywood style, (that, while cool looking, is definetly dumb) but to double your ammo capacity, can sustain a firefights longer before stopping to reload. Obviously reloading takes twice as long too but thats the risk he takes if he wants to reload both guns.

Miranda in that picture has the right idea. She concentrates using one pistol and having another ready incase the one runs out of thermalclip.

Dual wielding in west is just a huge movie myth. Just like the duels at high noon while waiting the clock to hit 12.
But yes, some individuals probably used two pistols at the same time. But the reason for this was the accuracy of the guns. Revolvers from that era are one of the most inaccurate firearms ever made. The reload time didn't help either. Have you ever tried to load a six-shooter? That takes ****ing ages.

So the reasons why cowboys carry two pistols or even more: some what of a movie myth (you cant successfully use a single action revolver in both hands at the same time), revolvers were hugely inaccurate and reloding a revolver takes ages.

And fireing only one pistol at a time isn't dual wielding. Dual wielding is that John Woo crap.

[MaaZeus]

emanziboy wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

Those who are saying that dual wielding pistols is dumb and unrealistic, go and take a look again at the old west. From what I know dual wielding revolvers was not too uncommon then. However, point was not fire both at the same time in hollywood style, (that, while cool looking, is definetly dumb) but to double your ammo capacity, can sustain a firefights longer before stopping to reload. Obviously reloading takes twice as long too but thats the risk he takes if he wants to reload both guns.

Miranda in that picture has the right idea. She concentrates using one pistol and having another ready incase the one runs out of thermalclip.

It would be so much simpler to just have an upgrade that doubles your clip's capacity. Same effect without having to go through all the difficulties of adding dual wielding into the game.

Indeed. But then again why not dual wield pistols with the increased ammo capacity?

In any case, my point was about the whole concept of dual wielding.

[MaaZeus]

Kangasniemi wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

Those who are saying that dual wielding pistols is dumb and unrealistic, go and take a look again at the old west. From what I know dual wielding revolvers was not too uncommon then. However, point was not fire both at the same time in hollywood style, (that, while cool looking, is definetly dumb) but to double your ammo capacity, can sustain a firefights longer before stopping to reload. Obviously reloading takes twice as long too but thats the risk he takes if he wants to reload both guns.

Miranda in that picture has the right idea. She concentrates using one pistol and having another ready incase the one runs out of thermalclip.

Dual wielding in west is just a huge movie myth. Just like the duels at high noon while waiting the clock to hit 12.
But yes, some individuals probably used two pistols at the same time. But the reason for this was the accuracy of the guns. Revolvers from that era are one of the most inaccurate firearms ever made. The reload time didn't help either. Have you ever tried to load a six-shooter? That takes ****ing ages.

So the reasons why cowboys carry two pistols or even more: some what of a movie myth (you cant successfully use a single action revolver in both hands at the same time), revolvers were hugely inaccurate and reloding a revolver takes ages.

And fireing only one pistol at a time isn't dual wielding. Dual wielding is that John Woo crap.

...and because they were so inaccurate, having high ammo capacity is a plus hence the two revolvers. Obviously you cant have two single action revolvers in your hands, but AFAIK first dual action revolvers were available in the old-west times.

And as I said, I didnt imply that both were worn and shot at the same time John Woo style. But having two revolvers ready and loaded is a boon.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 14 mai 2010 - 11:05 .

[shadowc116]

DW would be stupid in my opinion and plus i agree with Javier that DW should stick with 1st person shooters cause it would look stupid in 3rd person. have you seen what DW looks like in Alpha Protocol? (it looks stupid)

[Nivenus]

MaaZeus wrote...

Those who are saying that dual wielding pistols is dumb and unrealistic, go and take a look again at the old west. From what I know dual wielding revolvers was not too uncommon then. However, point was not fire both at the same time in hollywood style, (that, while cool looking, is definetly dumb) but to double your ammo capacity, can sustain a firefights longer before stopping to reload. Obviously reloading takes twice as long too but thats the risk he takes if he wants to reload both guns.

Miranda in that picture has the right idea. She concentrates using one pistol and having another ready incase the one runs out of thermalclip.

As you say, the idea was to lower the need to reload. ME guns do not have this problem, even with heatclips, because they're not six-piece revolvers.

[n3tmnky]

MaaZeus wrote...

Those who are saying that dual wielding pistols is dumb and unrealistic, go and take a look again at the old west. From what I know dual wielding revolvers was not too uncommon then. However, point was not fire both at the same time in hollywood style, (that, while cool looking, is definetly dumb) but to double your ammo capacity, can sustain a firefights longer before stopping to reload. Obviously reloading takes twice as long too but thats the risk he takes if he wants to reload both guns.

Miranda in that picture has the right idea. She concentrates using one pistol and having another ready incase the one runs out of thermalclip.

Carrying two weapons in the pre-1900 American West may not have been uncommon. But dual wielding them (one in each hand) probably never happened. The sixguns of the old west were mostly single action revolvers, and you had to use your thumb or (more commonly) your off hand to re**** them before your next shot.

There are modern agencies that do allow you to carry two handguns. Your primary that you use both hands to aim and fire, reload, etc and a smaller, backup weapon that stays holstered until there is a failure of your primary weapon. But you're still trained to fire and reload the primary, clear any jams it may have, etc. The backup gun is a tool of last resort and should stay holstered until absolutely required.

[MaaZeus]

Nivenus wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

Those who are saying that dual wielding pistols is dumb and unrealistic, go and take a look again at the old west. From what I know dual wielding revolvers was not too uncommon then. However, point was not fire both at the same time in hollywood style, (that, while cool looking, is definetly dumb) but to double your ammo capacity, can sustain a firefights longer before stopping to reload. Obviously reloading takes twice as long too but thats the risk he takes if he wants to reload both guns.

Miranda in that picture has the right idea. She concentrates using one pistol and having another ready incase the one runs out of thermalclip.

As you say, the idea was to lower the need to reload. ME guns do not have this problem, even with heatclips, because they're not six-piece revolvers.

Yup. Even today with pistols that have over 10 bullets per clip and fast reloading having two guns is quite pointless. Other than intimidation factor that is, but then we are in the 'dumb' category.