1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Proof is right here in front of our nose. We have verified these claims.

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...
N7 was elite level military training which so far only two persons in whole Alliance Navy  were able to complete.

In ME2 Emily Wong reports in a news item that a group of Alliance N7 Marines inserted by a "Normandy" class stelth frigate destroyed the Batarian orbital mirror grid installation. (That is if Udina is in charge of the Council. Your great Paragon military leader Anderson, if in charge, prefers to bargain with the terrorists.)

So that proves that N7 isn't a cerberus cell, not entirely at least. If they had been cerberus, they would have been captured, tortured and somehow turned into husks along with everyone else aboard the station lol and then Shepard would have to go in and clean it up.

OMG, nobody ever sugested that N7 program is Cerberus related! Dean just said that Cerberus would be interested in recruiting N7 graduates (more than N6, N5 or B4).

The news item dismisses the Asheer_Khan's notion that there are only two N7s, namely Shepard and Anderson, in the ME universe.

Regardless, my point about how Cerberus would handle the operation remains.

[Asheer_Khan]

In ME 1 there were only two N7 graduates... Anderson and Shepard. (even ME wiki says that Anderson was N7)

But two years between ME 1 and 2 was in off  time for finishing training of larger group N7 Marines.

To using current times as compare i would say that N7 is very similar to US Navy Seal Commando training and you can't say that Navy Seals works for CIA...

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 16 mai 2010 - 12:05 .

[Arijharn]

If I was TIM I'd make damn sure I'd tempt some N7 graduates. They're the best of the best the alliance has to offer, I'd be asinine to pass them up. I wouldn't however, immediately come out with a brazen offer... I'd test the waters see if they're somewhat open to the idea of what Cerberus represents.



I'm starting to loose my faith in humanity with some people on these forums who only operate in a world of sunshine and lolipops. If I put you on the ground with my boot to your head grinding it into the dirt, and with a pistol pointing at your chest, you're going to do everything you can to survive, because it is your biological imperative. Ethics, morality, good and evil are concepts are going to go out the window when it's your ass on the line because you're only going to care about one thing and one thing only: survival.

[GothamLord]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

In ME 1 there were only two N7 graduates... Anderson and Shepard. (even ME wiki says that Anderson was N7)

But two years between ME 1 and 2 was in off  time for finishing training of larger group N7 Marines.

To using current times as compare i would say that N7 is very similar to US Navy Seal Commando training and you can't say that Navy Seals works for CIA...

Dont use the Wiki for reference if you dont know how to read it.   Anderson was  "one of the first" N7 grads.  Not the only until Shepard.  If you want to stick to this claim that there were only two N7 grads from Andersons time till Shepard I want a scene in the game to quote this from. Because its not coming from the game

And no the Seals dont work for the CIA.  There also isnt a global Earth military or government like there is in Mass Effect. 

[Sajuro]

Arijharn wrote...

If I was TIM I'd make damn sure I'd tempt some N7 graduates. They're the best of the best the alliance has to offer, I'd be asinine to pass them up. I wouldn't however, immediately come out with a brazen offer... I'd test the waters see if they're somewhat open to the idea of what Cerberus represents.

I'm starting to loose my faith in humanity with some people on these forums who only operate in a world of sunshine and lolipops. If I put you on the ground with my boot to your head grinding it into the dirt, and with a pistol pointing at your chest, you're going to do everything you can to survive, because it is your biological imperative. Ethics, morality, good and evil are concepts are going to go out the window when it's your ass on the line because you're only going to care about one thing and one thing only: survival.

I care to think there are some ethics that transcend the compulsion to survive. You know as they say, a coward dies a thousand deaths while a warrior dies only one (except for Shep, but not his fault exactly)

[Bitterfoam]

As I told my Public Relations professor, much to his chagrin...



Ethics are overrated.

[Sajuro]

Bitterfoam wrote...

As I told my Public Relations professor, much to his chagrin...

Ethics are overrated.

You are renegade, eh?

[Bitterfoam]

Quite a bit, and also quite lawful and believing in order, for the most part.

[Sajuro]

Cool, I guess I'm more paragon

[Bitterfoam]

Paragon is for wussy-pants.

[Wildecker]

Arijharn wrote...

I'm starting to loose my faith in humanity with some people on these forums who only operate in a world of sunshine and lolipops. If I put you on the ground with my boot to your head grinding it into the dirt, and with a pistol pointing at your chest, you're going to do everything you can to survive, because it is your biological imperative. Ethics, morality, good and evil are concepts are going to go out the window when it's your ass on the line because you're only going to care about one thing and one thing only: survival.

But somehow humans are able to override this "biological imperative" by force of will and sacrifice themselves to save other lives. Basically starting with firefighters who enter burning buildings to search for survivors in need of help. Going all the way to the Alamo and Thermopylae.

And once you realise that you're not going to live through this no matter what, humans are capable of putting up one hell of a fight. Look at the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wildecker wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I'm starting to loose my faith in humanity with some people on these forums who only operate in a world of sunshine and lolipops. If I put you on the ground with my boot to your head grinding it into the dirt, and with a pistol pointing at your chest, you're going to do everything you can to survive, because it is your biological imperative. Ethics, morality, good and evil are concepts are going to go out the window when it's your ass on the line because you're only going to care about one thing and one thing only: survival.

But somehow humans are able to override this "biological imperative" by force of will and sacrifice themselves to save other lives. Basically starting with firefighters who enter burning buildings to search for survivors in need of help. Going all the way to the Alamo and Thermopylae.

And once you realise that you're not going to live through this no matter what, humans are capable of putting up one hell of a fight. Look at the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

Heroic behavior is survival behavior too. At group level.

Heroic behavior is also hormonally induced, which is sometimes strenghtened by counsious belief that "immortality" is granted not by God, but by the gratitude of the generations to come for this life accomplishements.

Also the guys that took their final stand at the Thermopylae were introduced to the civic virtue by beating up the helotae regularly, and making them drink wine till they lost all wits just to look what's it like to be drunk. Also the Spartans practiced abortion of defective babies, after the birth was given, that is. So this example is great in a modern discussion of ethics.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 16 mai 2010 - 07:01 .

[Wildecker]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I'm starting to loose my faith in humanity with some people on these forums who only operate in a world of sunshine and lolipops. If I put you on the ground with my boot to your head grinding it into the dirt, and with a pistol pointing at your chest, you're going to do everything you can to survive, because it is your biological imperative. Ethics, morality, good and evil are concepts are going to go out the window when it's your ass on the line because you're only going to care about one thing and one thing only: survival.

But somehow humans are able to override this "biological imperative" by force of will and sacrifice themselves to save other lives. Basically starting with firefighters who enter burning buildings to search for survivors in need of help. Going all the way to the Alamo and Thermopylae.

And once you realise that you're not going to live through this no matter what, humans are capable of putting up one hell of a fight. Look at the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

Heroic behavior is survival behavior too. At group level.

Heroic behavior is also hormonally induced, which is sometimes strenghtened by counsious belief that "immortality" is granted not by God, but by the gratitude of the generations to come for thier accompolishements.

Also the guys that took their final stand at the Thermopylae were introduced to the civic virtue by beating up the helotae regularly, and making them drink wine till they lost all wits just to look what's it like to be drunk. Also the Spartans practiced abortion of defective babies, after the birth was given, that is. So this example is great in a modern discussion of ethics.

I didn't say the Spartans were nice guys to hang out with. I did say they were able and willing to stand and die instead of bowing their knees like Arijharn's "biological imperative" would have demanded. Spartan civic virtues were quite different from U.S. American or Western European civic virtues, which in turn differ from Chinese or Arab civil virtues ...

However, many of us think higher of people who are willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe in than of people who are willing to sacrifice others, and lots of them, for what they believe in.

Modifié par Wildecker, 16 mai 2010 - 07:11 .

[GothamLord]

Wildecker wrote...

I didn't say the Spartans were nice guys to hang out with. I did say they were able and willing to stand and die instead of bowing their knees like Arijharn's "biological imperative" would have demanded. Spartan civic virtues were quite different from U.S. American or Western European civic virtues, which in turn differ from Chinese or Arab civil virtues ...

However, many of us think higher of people who are willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe in than of people who are willing to sacrifice others, and lots of them, for what they believe in.

Oh how I want TIM to sacrifice himself now in ME3 just to have peoples jaws hit the floor.   Probably never happen but I'd love to see it.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wildecker wrote...
However, many of us think higher of people who are willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe in than of people who are willing to sacrifice others, and lots of them, for what they believe in.

The trick is, in reality, you sometimes can't achieve what you believe in by sacrificing just yourself.

[Wildecker]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wildecker wrote...
However, many of us think higher of people who are willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe in than of people who are willing to sacrifice others, and lots of them, for what they believe in.

The trick is, in reality, you sometimes can't achieve what you believe in by sacrificing just yourself.

I think Thich Quang Duc promoted his cause better than Mohamed Atta.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wildecker wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wildecker wrote...
However, many of us think higher of people who are willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe in than of people who are willing to sacrifice others, and lots of them, for what they believe in.

The trick is, in reality, you sometimes can't achieve what you believe in by sacrificing just yourself.

I think Thich Quang Duc promoted his cause better than Mohamed Atta.

I will not be posting them, but there are photos of crowds, celebrating 9/11. Also, I believe, that in certain non-Muslim countries the people's joy about 9/11 was not expressed publicly, but was widespread nonetheless, including the country that was the scene of Thich Quang Duc's show.

[Gundar3]

Survival is important, but there are far worse things than death. That "cliche" is surprisingly accurate, considering that all life is precious. I also believe that people have NO LIMITS!!! except within the bounds of moral and natural law.

Lol at the notion that good and evil are mere constructs of our own psyche/ the world is ONLY gray/ all things are relative/ nothing is certain.

I believe in absolute Truth and the idea that good and evil can be objectively discerned. Please, feel free to flame. I already know that I am what most "modernists" despise.

Edit:  i realize that I forgot to commnt on the ineptness of Cerberus.  Although they might not be totally "inept", we certainly dont see them with many successes accross both games... Except for Shepard and his mission.

Modifié par Gundar3, 16 mai 2010 - 08:24 .

[Wildecker]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I will not be posting them, but there are photos of crowds, celebrating 9/11. Also, I believe, that in certain non-Muslim countries the people's joy about 9/11 was not expressed publicly, but was widespread nonetheless, including the country that was the scene of Thich Quang Duc's show.

Indeed.

Five months after that monk burnt himself, the government he demonstrated against was out of office. Success.

No such thing happened after September 9th, 2001. If al-Quaeda's agenda was to lure thousands of U.S. soldiers into the Arab peninsula and into other muslim countries so they wouldn't have to cross an ocean to shoot at some Americans - well, in that case it worked admirably.
But as an effort to move Washington to re-evaluate and change its policy into something more sympathetic to the muslim point of view, it was an epic fail. "Shame on you! Look what you forced us to do, you bad, bad people!" - generic terrorist bull****.

Ah, right ... back to Cerberus, shall we? Miranda once explained that Cerberus does finance scientific research projects that orthodox scientists would not involve themselves in. Occasionally on grounds of ethical considerations, sometimes because they consider an approach from that angle a waste of time.

But unfortunately, when a Cerberus project goes awry, it's not just money down the sink - people tend to die, sometimes in considerable numbers. They're good at protecting their secrets, but they suck at protecting their personnel and others from getting turned into "collateral damage".

Modifié par Wildecker, 16 mai 2010 - 08:52 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Wildecker wrote...

But as an effort to move Washington to re-evaluate and change its policy into something more sympathetic to the muslim point of view, it was an epic fail.

I think it was predictable, that Washington wouldn't re-evaluate its policy into something more sympathetic to the "Muslim point of view". So I think that was the last thing Mohammed Atta was trying to achieve.

The objective of a terrorist attack is... get ready for a suprise... terror. The 9/11 message was: "You, Americans, are not safe from us Allah's Mujaheddin in your fancy skyscrapers!"

Which was achieved.



Returnig to Cerberus, I'm always puzzled why people call them a "terrorist group". The closest thing to a terrorist attack was their action against the Quarians, but it's objective wasn't terror. It was retrieval of a valuable asset - Gillian Grason, and the plan to blow up the ship was part of diversion tactics. Quarians weren't the target, they were collateral damage.

My guess it's up to popular cliche mentality: Cerberus operates in cells, organized into a network, led by the elusive Illusive Man. And they are EVIL []. So they get easily associated with real world's Al Qaeda. Whereas in fact they have very little in common.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 16 mai 2010 - 09:03 .

[Wildecker]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

But as an effort to move Washington to re-evaluate and change its policy into something more sympathetic to the muslim point of view, it was an epic fail.

I think it was predictable, that Washington wouldn't re-evaluate its policy into something more sympathetic to the "Muslim point of view". So I think that was the last thing Mohammed Atta was trying to achieve.

The objective of a terrorist attack is... get ready for a suprise... terror. The 9/11 message was: "You, Americans, are not safe from us Allah's Mujaheddin in your fancy skyscrapers!"

Which was achieved.

Terror is an instrument used to achieve a goal. Usually, a political goal. Sometimes, a religious one. Although a rational approach to a religious fundamental mindset is difficult at best.  "God told me to!" leaves nothing more to say.

For what it's worth, I don't consider Cerberus a terrorist group. I can sympathize with their declared intent, but not with their demonstrated lack of concern for individual lives.
Research a cure for AIDS and ask for volunteers to evaluate your progress? Okay.
Research a cure for AIDS and infect a whole community of unwilling people (the inmates of a military prison, for example) because nobody volunteered, but you need someone to experiment on? Not okay.
But that is the Cerberus way to get things done, right?

Modifié par Wildecker, 16 mai 2010 - 09:13 .

[GothamLord]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Returnig to Cerberus, I'm always puzzled why people call them a "terrorist group". The closest thing to a terrorist attack was their action against the Quarians, but it's objective wasn't terror. It was retrieval of a valuable asset - Gillian Grason, and the plan to blow up the ship was part of diversion tactics. Quarians weren't the target, they were collateral damage.

My guess it's up to popular cliche mentality: Cerberus operates in cells, organized into a network, led by the elusive Illusive Man. And they are EVIL []. So they get easily associated with real world's Al Qaeda. Whereas in fact they have very little in common.

The 'industrial accident' over Yandoa, from where Gillian got her biotic ability was actually orchestrated by Cerberus and could be considered a terrorist act. It resulted in many children born with birth defects and tumors. The Batarians however have the terrorist image down alot better than Cerberus.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wildecker wrote...

Ah, right ... back to Cerberus, shall we? Miranda once explained that Cerberus does finance scientific research projects that orthodox scientists would not involve themselves in. Occasionally on grounds of ethical considerations, sometimes because they consider an approach from that angle a waste of time.

But unfortunately, when a Cerberus project goes awry, it's not just money down the sink - people tend to die, sometimes in considerable numbers. They're good at protecting their secrets, but they suck at protecting their personnel and others from getting turned into "collateral damage".

"Orthodox scientist" is a paradox. Or simply an ox.
/end flat silly jokes.

Seriously, when a scientist becomes orthodox, he ceases to be a scientist. That's one of the basic principles of science. So the "orthodox scientists" are defeated.

As to the fatality rate of Cerberus personnel, well. They know the risks, and it takes some guts to push the limit. They are also heaftily rewarded in money and services, unless they go unreasonably greedy (like Wilson) which is not uncommon with the type of people Cerberus is interested to employ, because greed often comes hand in hand with pushing the limit.

Also TIM is not a "people's" type of person. He treats people (and probably himself) as "assets", "resources". To him, the individual's life has a price, and usually quite a low one. Even Shepard is valuable, but expendable. Even TIM is expendable, provided there is a person that could replace him... which seems not to be provided at the moment.

I repeat. Some people believe in things that cannot be achieved without sacrifice of other people. Renegade Shepard knows that. On occasion he says about Virmire something like: "We accept death when we put on this uniform". "Being an officer means knowing people are going to die sometimes under your command. This can't affect your decisions."

Wildecker wrote...

Research a cure for AIDS and ask for volunteers to evaluate your progress? Okay.
Research a cure for AIDS and infect a whole community of unwilling people (the inmates of a military prison, for example) because nobody volunteered, but you need someone to experiment on? Not okay.
But that is the Cerberus way to get things done, right?

That's why Aliiance created Cerberus, then distanced themselves from it.

Also, if it's not on the news, it never happened. How many accidents are attributed to Cerberus by the news in-game?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 16 mai 2010 - 09:28 .