1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you return to the Migrant Fleet with either Cerberus person, they get defensive at the state of Veetor and insist he was already broken when they got to him.

Which is pretty much true.

There's nothing suggesting torture as much as harsh questions from unsympathetic Cerberus docs who looked at his body and not his mind. Veetor's problems were pyschological, not physical.

There's certainly nothing to support in any way that Cerberus did not ask him about Freedom's Progress, and anything about Gillian.

Khan is just stuck on the brief cartoony glimpse we got of Cerberus in ME1 and is on the usual trip again.

Apparently you have not a slightest idea how "interrogations" could be commencing.
My Sister's friend was once (in mid of 80'ths) "questioned" by goverment secret police about his political opposition work...
He goes there as heatly and sane man and return as broken physicaly and mentaly wreckage because he refuses to reveal who else work whit him... so dont you dare to say that Cerberus docs "just taking care for Veetor".

www.youtube.com/watch - This is Veetor returned to fleet whit Tali
 
www.youtube.com/watch - This is Veetor after Cerberus "medical care"

Your sister's friend is irrelevant to what Cerberus did, which was not torture. The video says that they kept him drugged during the baseline medical treatment to keep him lucid during harsh questions.

They didn't feed him properly and they didn't repair his already damaged suit, and they kept him drugged. That's medical and technical neglect (the suit parts aren't likely something Cerberus is well suited to cover in the first place), but not torture.

Conclusions i leave to watchers...

Beside Cerberus did have Veetors omni tool data, recordings from F. Progress cameras so there was nothinng more about what happened there to learn over what was in all those data.
The ONLY thing that could be subject of any questions is Gilian and her status within flotilla.

Then you're ignorant. Veetor has been on his pilgramige: he wouldn't know what was going on in the flotilla.

Veetor's omni tool data and recordings are only as good as the person who compiled them and what he had to work with. Veetor could only get footage from what scraps he could recompile, and this was while himself was delusional: without an interrogation, there's no effective way to confirm that what he has recorded is all he knows. He could have seen/heard things not caught on the videos, or not put all he knew on the omni tool.

A back briefing was necessary. Even the Quarians did it. The lack of suit repairs was not.

[Mangalores]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
...Your sister's friend is irrelevant to what Cerberus did, which was not torture. The video says that they kept him drugged during the baseline medical treatment to keep him lucid during harsh questions.

They didn't feed him properly and they didn't repair his already damaged suit, and they kept him drugged. That's medical and technical neglect (the suit parts aren't likely something Cerberus is well suited to cover in the first place), but not torture.
....

Drugging someone and intentionally inflicting suffering on him  actually is torture, more so since he was not guilty of any crime or suspected of protecting a severe crime underway.



For me the ME2 Cerberus is the idiotic James bond goon squad compared to ME1. In ME1 you had the feeling you have a group of guys from the secret service subverting Black ops money through their contacts. In ME2 it's Golfinger aka the Illusive Man who controls everyone and the operatives actually wear uniforms and have insignia. It's a dumbed down farce that C-Sec or any random alien military patrol didn't blow the Normandy SR-2 out of the sky given it has the paintjob of a known terrorist organization on her bow.

Given they let about anyone onboard their projects(some engineers with no actual affiliation to Cerberus, a bunch of for hire aliens, ex Alliance military, the list goes on ...)  they should be undermined by moles through the roof by now. Probably the only plausible reason why they didn't shoot the Normandy down... although given their fatality rate with high ranked, highly qualified personnel in cutting edge sience it is a wonder anyone still signs up and the official channels are not wondering about the attrition rate of their scientists...

Other than the Illusive Man sitting in his bat cave the whole "secret organization" theme was thrown out of the window.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Your sister's friend is irrelevant to what Cerberus did, which was not torture. The video says that they kept him drugged during the baseline medical treatment to keep him lucid during harsh questions.

They didn't feed him properly and they didn't repair his already damaged suit, and they kept him drugged. That's medical and technical neglect (the suit parts aren't likely something Cerberus is well suited to cover in the first place), but not torture.

Given that it was Miranda telling you that, presumably what TIM told her, it is euphamism laced at best, unreliable narrator, or outright lying at worst. Veetor said "needles for wrong answers" which implies that they used drugs more than to just keep him lucid or sedated.

(quotes messing up, sorry)

Modifié par Sajuro, 21 mai 2010 - 03:52 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Mangalores wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
...Your sister's friend is irrelevant to what Cerberus did, which was not torture. The video says that they kept him drugged during the baseline medical treatment to keep him lucid during harsh questions.

They didn't feed him properly and they didn't repair his already damaged suit, and they kept him drugged. That's medical and technical neglect (the suit parts aren't likely something Cerberus is well suited to cover in the first place), but not torture.
....

Drugging someone and intentionally inflicting suffering on him  actually is torture, more so since he was not guilty of any crime or suspected of protecting a severe crime underway.

*BEEP* *BEEP* *BEEP* DOUBLE STANDARDS ALERT!
Torture is torture. Not less so if the tortured person is a criminal, terrorist, hostile combattant or whatever.

It is more justified, if the person is... or if the information the person possibly posesses is worth it.

For me the ME2 Cerberus is the idiotic James bond goon squad compared to ME1. In ME1 you had the feeling you have a group of guys from the secret service subverting Black ops money through their contacts. In ME2 it's Golfinger aka the Illusive Man who controls everyone and the operatives actually wear uniforms and have insignia. It's a dumbed down farce that C-Sec or any random alien military patrol didn't blow the Normandy SR-2 out of the sky given it has the paintjob of a known terrorist organization on her bow.

This is the general problem of Mass Effect 2. Its cartoonish artistic solutions are at odds with its plot and setting, and with Mass Effect One. Think of the high heels, breathing masks, thermal ammo...

Given they let about anyone onboard their projects(some engineers with no actual affiliation to Cerberus, a bunch of for hire aliens, ex Alliance military, the list goes on ...)  they should be undermined by moles through the roof by now. Probably the only plausible reason why they didn't shoot the Normandy down... although given their fatality rate with high ranked, highly qualified personnel in cutting edge sience it is a wonder anyone still signs up and the official channels are not wondering about the attrition rate of their scientists...

Other than the Illusive Man sitting in his bat cave the whole "secret organization" theme was thrown out of the window.

At least they don't announce it in the Citadel news, that a Cerberus flagship has just docked at Zakera Ward.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 mai 2010 - 04:18 .

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

Mangalores wrote...
For me the ME2 Cerberus is the idiotic James bond goon squad compared to ME1. In ME1 you had the feeling you have a group of guys from the secret service subverting Black ops money through their contacts. In ME2 it's Golfinger aka the Illusive Man who controls everyone and the operatives actually wear uniforms and have insignia. It's a dumbed down farce that C-Sec or any random alien military patrol didn't blow the Normandy SR-2 out of the sky given it has the paintjob of a known terrorist organization on her bow.

Because the whole bio-engineered supersoldier thing hasn't been completely played out, has it?  It was only the plot of 3/4 main story missions in ME1 (thorian, rachni, krogan).  I'd much rather have Auric Goldfinger than Albert "You'll Never Find my Rooster Key" Wesker.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mangalores wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
...Your sister's friend is irrelevant to what Cerberus did, which was not torture. The video says that they kept him drugged during the baseline medical treatment to keep him lucid during harsh questions.

They didn't feed him properly and they didn't repair his already damaged suit, and they kept him drugged. That's medical and technical neglect (the suit parts aren't likely something Cerberus is well suited to cover in the first place), but not torture.
....

Drugging someone and intentionally inflicting suffering on him  actually is torture, more so since he was not guilty of any crime or suspected of protecting a severe crime underway.

Drugs, unless they cause pain, are not a form of torture. Torture is dependent on inflicting severe pain. Causing someone to be lucid is a separate moral issue entirely, unless you want to water down torture to meaningless definitions.

Inflicting pain that would not exist in order to interrogate is torture. That is a positive action. Not fixing something already at issue is a negative action. Torture is a positive action.

The issue to condemn Cerberus for is not fixing Veetor's respirator, which caused the trauma of not being able to breath well. Cerberus abused that pre-existing problem, but they did not cause it.

[Sajuro]

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

I'd much rather have Auric Goldfinger than Albert "You'll Never Find my Rooster Key" Wesker.

That sounds like a nick name for Wesker's weiner

[GTYKDME22]

Didn't know Cerebus was in the first game. :/

Modifié par GTYKDME22, 22 mai 2010 - 12:09 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Drugs, unless they cause pain, are not a form of torture. Torture is dependent on inflicting severe pain. Causing someone to be lucid is a separate moral issue entirely, unless you want to water down torture to meaningless definitions.

From the youtube link, it seems that it was taken a step further from simply drugging Veetor. He does appear to be in even worse shape than on Freedom's Progress and Miranda conceeds that they "were not gentle" with him. Given Cerberus' reputation, torture is not out of line. Now whether it is ethical is a separate question entirely.

1. Inflicting pain that would not exist in order to interrogate is torture. That is a positive action. Not fixing something already at issue is a negative action. Torture is a positive action.

2. The issue to condemn Cerberus for is not fixing Veetor's respirator, which caused the trauma of not being able to breath well. Cerberus abused that pre-existing problem, but they did not cause it.

1. Unfortunately watering down such issues to "positive and negative actions" rarely works, particularly in a case like this. To provide you another example. If I found someone dying from a bullet wound outside my front door and chose to ignore him, technically I did not harm him, a "positive" action. However, most would not agree that I am morally absolved when all it would require is that I call an ambulance.

2. Had Veetor not been given over to Cerberus, he likely would have received the proper care from the Quarians. Even if we can assume that Cerberus did not 'actively' harm Veetor, they did not allow him to receive any proper care, as he was apparently deprived of his medical needs. And considering Cerberus' resources, they could have been charitable and restored him to health at the very least. It might have helped patch things over with the Quarians over the ship which Cerberus tried to steal.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 22 mai 2010 - 12:25 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The worse shape is pretty easily explained as thanks to the respirator issues: not being able to breath will make any experience worse. It's the concept behind water boarding, which is more or less a torture-interrogation technique. Drugging someone who already has trouble breathing would be a traumatic experience without any sort of beating, finger breaking, or such traditional torture thrown in.



To your one and two:



1. 'Absolved of what?' is the question. Murder? Then yes, you would be absolved of murder. Is it morally wrong to leave a dying man alone? Sure, so long as saving him does not endanger others. Is it the same as killing the man yourself? Not by any sensible uniform measure. It is something to be condemned for, but not the same in level or intensity as causing it. (Otherwise, you'd be guilty of standing by when poor children starve because you aren't giving all your extra money to charity.)



2. I do believe I said that Cerberus should be condemned for abusing the respirator issue? Not giving proper medical care is not something they should be proud of. On the other hand, by all accounts they made it as quick as possible and then rapidly turned him over to the Quarians to care for.



That said, yes. Cerberus does need a lesson in working with other people.

[Sajuro]

He said he got a needle for wrong answers, and he shrieked for you to get away. What part of that doesn't sound like he was tortured?

[Dean_the_Young]

Needles are for injections. Hammers are for torture. Shrieking is for trauma in general, such as suffocation.

It's not hard to make people insane in the first place. When they're already unbalanced and fragile like Veetor, it doesn't take anything serious to break them.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 mai 2010 - 01:18 .

[Sajuro]

So they injected him with something when he gave them answers they didn't like... hm, I guess we know what information they got by injecting Toombs with Thresher Maw acid

[Dean_the_Young]

Quarians, Sajuro. If it doesn't belong in them, they die.



They drugged him: that's open. He was choking from lack of air: that's open knowledge as well. There's nothing suggesting they beat him with bars or poisoned him with acid. Veetor needed soft love, and got no love at all.

[Sajuro]

I don't know, you could romance Tali but she made it... boom!



They drugged him while they were doing medical procedures not during their 'interrogations'

[Dean_the_Young]

The two were one in the same: Miranda said it herself that they were keeping him in that state.



It's hardly an unknown interrogation tactic, to question someone while under medical drugs. Contentious, but practiced.

[Sajuro]

What I am saying is that I am doubting Miranda's information. Not because I think Miranda is lying, but I don't trust TIM and he probably told Miranda half of what happened since she couldn't have actually been there in person during the interrogation.

[DPSSOC]

Sajuro wrote...

Not because I think Miranda is lying, but I don't trust TIM and he probably told Miranda half of what happened since she couldn't have actually been there in person during the interrogation.

Why not, the interrogation takes place between the cutscene at the end of Freedom's Progress and speaking with the Illussive Man, a moment for us but who knows how long game time, else how could TIM comment on the fact they got nothing out of him.  Veetor is with you when you leave Freedom's Progress as is Miranda, therefore she could very well have not only been present for, but actively participated in, Veetor's aggressive debriefing.

[Sajuro]

DPSSOC wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Not because I think Miranda is lying, but I don't trust TIM and he probably told Miranda half of what happened since she couldn't have actually been there in person during the interrogation.

Why not, the interrogation takes place between the cutscene at the end of Freedom's Progress and speaking with the Illussive Man, a moment for us but who knows how long game time, else how could TIM comment on the fact they got nothing out of him.  Veetor is with you when you leave Freedom's Progress as is Miranda, therefore she could very well have not only been present for, but actively participated in, Veetor's aggressive debriefing.

It sounded more drawn out than just that, she may have been there for the first part but Veetor hadn't been locked up in the storage area on freedoms progress to be malnourished or dehydrated. Also they didn't have access to the drugs on Freedom's Progress.

[DPSSOC]

Sajuro wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Not because I think Miranda is lying, but I don't trust TIM and he probably told Miranda half of what happened since she couldn't have actually been there in person during the interrogation.

Why not, the interrogation takes place between the cutscene at the end of Freedom's Progress and speaking with the Illussive Man, a moment for us but who knows how long game time, else how could TIM comment on the fact they got nothing out of him.  Veetor is with you when you leave Freedom's Progress as is Miranda, therefore she could very well have not only been present for, but actively participated in, Veetor's aggressive debriefing.

It sounded more drawn out than just that, she may have been there for the first part but Veetor hadn't been locked up in the storage area on freedoms progress to be malnourished or dehydrated. Also they didn't have access to the drugs on Freedom's Progress.

Sorry, what I meant was that in the time between the scene where we leave Freedom's Progress and the scene where we speak with the Illussive Man, Veetor was brought back to the facility and debriefed, which Miranda could have been present for being on the facility, and the results were then forwarded to the Illussive Man, who after reviewing the findings informs the faciity he wants to speak with Shepard.  We're never given a time frame between the two scenes it could have been minutes, hours, or even weeks in game time.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro, yes he had: he was already delirious by the point you met him, and drugs nearly always make any such conditions (especially dehydration) worse.

They would have access to the drugs on the shuttle and the ship they took Veetor in.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 mai 2010 - 02:16 .

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro, yes he had: he was already delirious by the point you met him, and drugs nearly always make any such conditions (especially dehydration) worse.

They would have access to the drugs on the shuttle and the ship they took Veetor in.

As to the point that he was delirious, he had just seen a swarm of insects come down from the sky and locked himself in the room at which point he would have heard at least some screaming and he would later see the collectors coming and taking away the colonists. add the paranoia to that and you don't have to be in a room long enough for malnutrition before being in such a weak mental state.

[Dean_the_Young]

It doesn't take long for malnutrition to set in when you're already ill and delirious from bad oxygen. Some people get faint from half a day without meals. A day or two with minimal IV's will cause that.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro, yes he had: he was already delirious by the point you met him, and drugs nearly always make any such conditions (especially dehydration) worse.

They would have access to the drugs on the shuttle and the ship they took Veetor in.

As to the point that he was delirious, he had just seen a swarm of insects come down from the sky and locked himself in the room at which point he would have heard at least some screaming and he would later see the collectors coming and taking away the colonists. add the paranoia to that and you don't have to be in a room long enough for malnutrition before being in such a weak mental state.

sounds like torture in general to me. To be honest, when I hit that cutscene I knew better than to let Cerbersus get their hands on Veetor, especially considering tali was present. Giving Veetor to Cerbersus my ***, I trust tali over them any day of the week. I highly doubted we would get anyhting relibilie anyways. Veetor didn't exactly show an stable state of mind to begin with and trusting his intell would be foolhardy anyway unless it was video evidence like he presented.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 22 mai 2010 - 03:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Boredom and noise are pretty horrific, I agree.