1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

He said he got a needle for wrong answers, and he shrieked for you to get away. What part of that doesn't sound like he was tortured?

When I was giving Veetor to Cerberus, I had absolutely no doubt that it's going to harm him. But what do you want? First the Quarians shelter and hide Gillian Grayson from Cerberus, then they want the Cerberus Zomborg to be nice? Fat chance!

I had was not surprused to find Veetor in that dilapidated condition on the Migrant Fleet. I was surprised, that the Quarians let me in at all and didn't try to capture Kuril-style (when they had all the reasons Kuril lacked to do so!).
I guess either Cerberus doctors were damn good with meesing up Veetor's mind, or the Quarians are utter morons. Or both. In any case, Cerberus are not inept.

[Mangalores]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
*BEEP* *BEEP* *BEEP* DOUBLE STANDARDS ALERT!
Torture is torture. Not less so if the tortured person is a criminal, terrorist, hostile combattant or whatever.

It is more justified, if the person is... or if the information the person possibly posesses is worth it.

Yes it is kind of a double standard but police kinda makes a distinction between interrogating a known criminal or inviting a person for questioning. The threshold between torture and mean interrogation would shift a bit. Drugging someone and incarcarate him for weeks despite him being just an innocent bystander would be intolerable. At least the incarceration and continued interrogations would be ok in many western countries if it is a criminal you know is involved in crime you try to stop.

This is the general problem of Mass Effect 2. Its cartoonish artistic solutions are at odds with its plot and setting, and with Mass Effect One. Think of the high heels, breathing masks, thermal ammo...

Sure, I consider alot of the lauded feature changes rather unfortunate concerning worldbuiling and immersion because they don't make sense in the context of what was established in ME1. It kinda is a step down from serious action flick to campy action flick. Sure, it is still fun but when the franchise was introduced as the former it is kind of a loss in appeal and depth.

In any case, Cerberus are not inept.

Given the amount of projects which ended in the total loss of equipment and personnel (which a 150 men organization should be short of) I beg to differ. Even Lazarus ended in the complete obliberation of its base and the death of alot of personnel, let alone that - by TIM's own testimony - an extremely highranking Cerberus operative was a traitor who was co lead a major project for two years and thus would have had alot of bad access to Cerberus intel.

Modifié par Mangalores, 22 mai 2010 - 02:26 .

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

He said he got a needle for wrong answers, and he shrieked for you to get away. What part of that doesn't sound like he was tortured?

When I was giving Veetor to Cerberus, I had absolutely no doubt that it's going to harm him. But what do you want? First the Quarians shelter and hide Gillian Grayson from Cerberus, then they want the Cerberus Zomborg to be nice? Fat chance!

I had was not surprused to find Veetor in that dilapidated condition on the Migrant Fleet. I was surprised, that the Quarians let me in at all and didn't try to capture Kuril-style (when they had all the reasons Kuril lacked to do so!).
I guess either Cerberus doctors were damn good with meesing up Veetor's mind, or the Quarians are utter morons. Or both. In any case, Cerberus are not inept.

That they weren't able interrogate a single Quarian for useful information (Since you get the same information from the Omni tool) so that does show a certain amount of ineptness

[Zulu_DFA]

Mangalores wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
*BEEP* *BEEP* *BEEP* DOUBLE STANDARDS ALERT!
Torture is torture. Not less so if the tortured person is a criminal, terrorist, hostile combattant or whatever.

It is more justified, if the person is... or if the information the person possibly posesses is worth it.

Yes it is kind of a double standard but police kinda makes a distinction between interrogating a known criminal or inviting a person for questioning. The threshold between torture and mean interrogation would shift a bit. Drugging someone and incarcarate him for weeks despite him being just an innocent bystander would be intolerable. At least the incarceration and continued interrogations would be ok in many western countries if it is a criminal you know is involved in crime you try to stop.

Or more accurately, the higher standing you've got in the society, the less time you will spent in the police. If you are an honest little guy, but somebody planted a dope cache under your porch, you'll most probably suffer some injuries, before the cops give up on you. But if you are a drug lord, with a 10 million dollar villa, several cops will first give their lives just to gather some evidence against you, and then, even if by a fat chance you get arrested, you'll possibly be able to walk away in an hour, unless all your lawyers are drunk at the moment and you've forgotten to grease some right hands in advance.

It's not so easy with the special services or the military for the bad guys to clear off the hook, but more not so bad guys are mowed down without second thought.

Mangalores wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This is the general problem of Mass Effect 2. Its cartoonish artistic solutions are at odds with its plot and setting, and with Mass Effect One. Think of the high heels, breathing masks, thermal ammo...

Sure, I consider alot of the lauded feature changes rather unfortunate concerning worldbuiling and immersion because they don't make sense in the context of what was established in ME1. It kinda is a step down from serious action flick to campy action flick. Sure, it is still fun but when the franchise was introduced as the former it is kind of a loss in appeal and depth.

Cheers! On this we totally agree.

Mangalores wrote...

In any case, Cerberus are not inept.

Given the amount of projects which ended in the total loss of equipment and personnel (which a 150 men organization should be short of) I beg to differ. Even Lazarus ended in the complete obliberation of its base and the death of alot of personnel, let alone that - by TIM's own testimony - an extremely highranking Cerberus operative was a traitor who was co lead a major project for two years and thus would have had alot of bad access to Cerberus intel.

Let's account for the projects that resulted in significant material and personnel loss (in the form of fanfic - let's pretend it's TIM's notes in his business diary):

Depot Sigma-32 cell -- reason: mismanagement -- result: negative -- subject: lost -- objective: comlete -- project: closed

Teltin cell -- reason: mismanagement -- result: negative -- subject: retrieved -- objective: complete -- project: closed

Ascention cell -- reason: defection -- result: negative -- subject: lost -- objective: failed -- project: suspended

Lazarus cell -- reason: defection/cover-up -- result: positive -- subject: retrieved -- objective: complete -- project: closed

Klendagon cell (1) -- reason: mismanagement -- result: positive -- subject: lost -- objective complete -- project closed.

Nepheron cell -- reason: security breach/cover-up -- result: positive -- subject: retrieved -- objective complete -- project closed.

Overlord cell -- pending investigation

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 mai 2010 - 05:11 .

[lovgreno]

Okay, there are many things that Cerberus MAY have suceeded in. But how do Shepard know for sure? Because Miranda said so? She wanted to put a chip in Shepards brain - untrustworthy.
Because Jacob said so? He is already a turncoat - don't trust.
Because EDI said so? Built by Cerberus to protect Cerberus - can't risk it.
Because TIM said so? Do I have to say why not? Lies, manipulates, threatens, bribes etc..- No way.
Is there anyone that Shepard can trust who can give her/him a good reason to trust Cerberus when they claim to be working for the greater good?
What Shepard does know is that Cerberus experiments often have violent and unexpected results.
Shepard do know that Cerberus takes high risks to gain high wins. Due to luck and Shepards cleaning up Cerberus mess nothing totaly fubar have happened yet. That luck cannot last.
We can speculate all we wan't about what Cerberus can or can't do. Shepard cannot afford that in the long run. S/he needs to act from what s/he knows. What Shepard knows is that Cerberus projects have a dangerous tendency to end in mayhem and death.
Desperation called for Shepard to collaborate with Cerberus to take down the collectors but they are just too dangerous and unreliable people to work with in the long run.

Modifié par lovgreno, 22 mai 2010 - 06:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...
That they weren't able interrogate a single Quarian for useful information (Since you get the same information from the Omni tool) so that does show a certain amount of ineptness

Or it means that Veetor didn't have any additional information besdies what was on his omni-tool. Which is something that could only be determined by interrogating him to see what he knew.

Ineptness doesn't factor into receiving a negative result when there's a negative to be found. Ineptness can be blamed when what should be a positive result turns up negative. It would only be inept if Veetor had more information and they didn't get it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 mai 2010 - 06:07 .

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Okay, there are many things that Cerberus MAY have suceeded in. But how do Shepard know for sure? Because Miranda said so? She wanted to put a chip in Shepards brain - untrustworthy.
Because Jacob said so? He is already a turncoat - don't trust.
Because EDI said so? Built by Cerberus to protect Cerberus - can't risk it.
Because TIM said so? Do I have to say why not? Lies, manipulates, threatens, bribes etc..- No way.
Is there anyone that Shepard can trust who can give her/him a good reason to trust Cerberus?
What Shepard does know is that Cerberus experiments often have violent and unexpected results.
Shepard do know that Cerberus takes high risks to gain high wins. Due to luck and Shepards cleaning up Cerberus mess nothing totaly fubar have happened yet. That luck cannot last.
We can speculate all we wan't about what Cerberus can or can't do. Shepard cannot afford that in the long run. S/he needs to act from what s/he knows. What Shepard knows is that Cerberus projects have a dangerous tendency to end in mayhem and death.
Desperation called for Shepard to collaborate with Cerberus to take down the collectors but they are just too dangerous and unreliable people to work with in the long run.

You forgot common sense. But that's a rare commodity for some Shepards.

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote..You forgot common sense. But that's a rare commodity for some Shepards.

Common sense would be to work with Cerberus as little as possible as Shepard have no reason to belive that the next cleanup after Cerberus mission won't be the last for him/her. Unless TIM can give Shepard a good reason to keep playing russian roulette.
Assuming that what we don't know about Cerberus are good things is wishfull thinking. Assuming that it might be dangerous things (a rather probable assumption considering Cerberus known history) is common sense and not taking unnecesary risks with things you know nothing about.
Playing with unknown risks are sometimes necesary but you can't survive doing that forever. Cerberus is a unknown risk. In the long run you got to play things safe even it's less flashy, rebellious and free of concequences.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
That they weren't able interrogate a single Quarian for useful information (Since you get the same information from the Omni tool) so that does show a certain amount of ineptness

Or it means that Veetor didn't have any additional information besdies what was on his omni-tool. Which is something that could only be determined by interrogating him to see what he knew.

Ineptness doesn't factor into receiving a negative result when there's a negative to be found. Ineptness can be blamed when what should be a positive result turns up negative. It would only be inept if Veetor had more information and they didn't get it.

ah yes, cause a 'gone off his rocker' quarian is such an useful source of infomation. >.> sorry, any person with common sense would know the quarian would be useless for infomation, and trusting ANY infomation gained is an utter waste of time and hazardous to your health considering it did come from someone who has lost an few bolts from his bucket of bolts.

would you trust infomation from someone who was in that condition? 

[Dean_the_Young]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
That they weren't able interrogate a single Quarian for useful information (Since you get the same information from the Omni tool) so that does show a certain amount of ineptness

Or it means that Veetor didn't have any additional information besdies what was on his omni-tool. Which is something that could only be determined by interrogating him to see what he knew.

Ineptness doesn't factor into receiving a negative result when there's a negative to be found. Ineptness can be blamed when what should be a positive result turns up negative. It would only be inept if Veetor had more information and they didn't get it.

ah yes, cause a 'gone off his rocker' quarian is such an useful source of infomation. >.> sorry, any person with common sense would know the quarian would be useless for infomation, and trusting ANY infomation gained is an utter waste of time and hazardous to your health considering it did come from someone who has lost an few bolts from his bucket of bolts.

would you trust infomation from someone who was in that condition? 

Why would you trust his omnitool data, which was made while he was in that condition?

Critical investigations routinely interogate eye witnesses after major events, even those disturbed or in shock. While they are not the preferred sources, in cases like Veetor they can be the only sources you have. The chance that he saw something important is too great to simply pass up any questioning of him what so ever.

[wampa]

I didn't finish all the cerberus missions from ME1, so can somebody please tell me just how have they been advancing humanity's interests?



I mean, did they cure cancer or something?

[Zulu_DFA]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
would you trust infomation from someone who was in that condition? 

Veetor may have been delusional, but he was sincere. This covers also the more invasive techniques, to which a straightminded person could have been less responsive.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 mai 2010 - 07:19 .

[Zulu_DFA]

wampa wrote...

I didn't finish all the cerberus missions from ME1, so can somebody please tell me just how have they been advancing humanity's interests?

I mean, did they cure cancer or something?

They did the wet-work and the greedy corps reaped the benefits. Nothing unusual.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote..You forgot common sense. But that's a rare commodity for some Shepards.

Common sense would be to work with Cerberus as little as possible as Shepard have no reason to belive that the next cleanup after Cerberus mission won't be the last for him/her. Unless TIM can give Shepard a good reason to keep playing russian roulette.

There are two ways you can take that paragraph.

If you're saying Cerberus cleanups are dangerous, no one is making Shepard do any of them. Then again, going on any mission is russian roulette. It comes with the life of soldiers on the ground.

If you're saying that Cerberus will come after Shepard next, the reasons why they brought him back in the first place are reasons why Cerberus won't kill you out of hand.

Assuming that what we don't know about Cerberus are good things is wishfull thinking. Assuming that it might be dangerous things (a rather probable assumption considering Cerberus known history) is common sense and not taking unnecesary risks with things you know nothing about.

Wishful thinking is believing something you want to without support. Assuming things by drawing inferences is how we operate in a world in which we can never know everything.

As the entire rest of the galaxy that knows of it treats Cerberus with caution and wariness (if not fear), we can very safely infer that Cerberus has reason for that reputation, even though we have not seen it ourselves.

Playing with unknown risks are sometimes necesary but you can't survive doing that forever. Cerberus is a unknown risk. In the long run you got to play things safe even it's less flashy, rebellious and free of concequences.

That holds true for individuals, but not necessarily organizations, especially those structured like Cerberus where a failure in one is unlikely to affect the rest.

There is also the matter of the danger of playing it safe: caution does not always mean safety, as sometimes the cautious actions are what will get you killed.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
There is also the matter of the danger of playing it safe: caution does not always mean safety, as sometimes the cautious actions are what will get you killed.

Yes. TIM almost tells you as much, when you ask him about Jacob: he prefers people that are open in their mistrust of him. If you play it too safe on hm, he'll just dump you.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would you trust his omnitool data, which was made while he was in that condition?

omnidata is alot clearer since it's an computer, it isn't manufactured by his mind.

Critical investigations routinely interogate eye witnesses after major events, even those disturbed or in shock. While they are not the preferred sources, in cases like Veetor they can be the only sources you have. The chance that he saw something important is too great to simply pass up any questioning of him what so ever.

if he saw anything important, he would use his omnitool data to gather more data, he's an quarian, them and omini-tools go together like bread and butter. Which he did by piercing together the camera footage and he clearly states that he used his omni-tool to collect data which means that anything he saw that was even remotely interesting would have been on his Omni-tool.

I trust his tool's data over him any day. especially if he's an quarian. A human, turian, asari or salarian, I would have send them to Cerbersus. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
he's an quarian, them and omini-tools go together like bread and butter

So... maybe a quarian omnitool is useless without the quarian...

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
he's an quarian, them and omini-tools go together like bread and butter

So... maybe a quarian omnitool is useless without the quarian...

I believe it is safe to assume that considering he is controlling the dozen or so monitors in the room, he has all the video footage on his omni-tool, all of it. Veetor wasn't an idiot by far an knew to record things, but to justify sending him to Cerbersus with his injuries and mindset doesn't fly for me. Hell, just give it to EDI. I am sure she could make heads/tails of it if worse comes to worse, but then again, since it is the quarians who send you the omni-tool data, they probably made heads/tails of it for you anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would you trust his omnitool data, which was made while he was in that condition?

omnidata is alot clearer since it's an computer, it isn't manufactured by his mind.

Not true at all: what goes into the computer is a product of the mind that enters it. A computer is nothing more than a storage device of information, not a validation of the information already in it.

Critical investigations routinely interogate eye witnesses after major events, even those disturbed or in shock. While they are not the preferred sources, in cases like Veetor they can be the only sources you have. The chance that he saw something important is too great to simply pass up any questioning of him what so ever.

if he saw anything important, he would use his omnitool data to gather more data, he's an quarian, them and omini-tools go together like bread and butter. Which he did by piercing together the camera footage and he clearly states that he used his omni-tool to collect data which means that anything he saw that was even remotely interesting would have been on his Omni-tool.

He wasn't necessarily in a state to put everything he saw into his omni tool, or in a position to record everything he experienced. Saying you used a tool doesn't mean you used the tool for every single thing, nor does it mean you used it perfectly.

For example, if I say I drove from here to there in a car with a recorder, it doesn't literally mean I only drove every inch of the way. I presumably also got out and walked some. If I only recorded what I saw from the car, but saw something else when I was walking from the car to somewhere else, a recording from my car wouldn't catch it (assuming the car recorder picked everything I saw from the car in the first place).

This is why investiations are important: to collaborate, confirm, and expand on the record.

I trust his tool's data over him any day. especially if he's an quarian. A human, turian, asari or salarian, I would have send them to Cerbersus. 

You humans are all racist!

[Zulu_DFA]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
he's an quarian, them and omini-tools go together like bread and butter

So... maybe a quarian omnitool is useless without the quarian...

I believe it is safe to assume that considering he is controlling the dozen or so monitors in the room, he has all the video footage on his omni-tool, all of it. Veetor wasn't an idiot by far an knew to record things, but to justify sending him to Cerbersus with his injuries and mindset doesn't fly for me. Hell, just give it to EDI. I am sure she could make heads/tails of it if worse comes to worse, but then again, since it is the quarians who send you the omni-tool data, they probably made heads/tails of it for you anyway.

That was a joke!

Seriously, what if Cerberus is interested in something that wasn't on Veetor's omni-tool, something besides Freedom's Progress? And, in fact, they are. And any quarian might know it, especially the ones on their pilgrimage. Or they might possess a clue... to the location of Gillian Grayson.

And you are given examples of what happens to people, when merc outfits interrogate them. Cerberus managed to return Veetor in one piece to the Migrant Fleet with no trace of mistreatment. Which proves they are way more professional than the Eclipse or the Blue Suns.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 mai 2010 - 08:10 .

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...There are two ways you can take that paragraph.
If you're saying Cerberus cleanups are dangerous, no one is making Shepard do any of them. Then again, going on any mission is russian roulette. It comes with the life of soldiers on the ground.
If you're saying that Cerberus will come after Shepard next, the
reasons why they brought him back in the first place are reasons why
Cerberus won't kill you out of hand.

Shepard have no one else to support his/her work due to ruined reputation thanks to Cerberus. No, a soldiers work is to stay alive to fight another day. Risks are necesary but being killed means you failed to do your job. Therefore risks and unknown situations like the ones that always happens when Cerberus plans fails should be avoided as much as possible. And they usualy fail as far as Shepard knows.
If TIM cannot controll/manipulate/controll with brainchip Shepard s/he may very well become a serious threat to him and Cerberus. To avoid that risk it would be more cost effective to kill Shepard. History strongly indicates that they are that ruthless.

As the entire rest of the galaxy that knows of it treats Cerberus with caution and wariness (if not fear), we can very safely infer that Cerberus has reason for that reputation, even though we have not seen it ourselves.

And considering that when working with Cerberus is common sense.

That holds true for individuals, but not necessarily organizations, especially those structured like Cerberus where a failure in one is unlikely to affect the rest.

But the failiures of Cerberus different cells follow a very common pattern that repeats itself. Cerberus resources are big but not unlimited so a failiure draws resources that could have been used on better projects. Also if a cell makes enemies that makes a enemy for all of Cerberus. There is no reason for a victim of Cerberus to assume that the other cells are different than the one that harmed him. Again there is no reason to trust Cerberus agents when they say some cells are better than others.

There is also the matter of the danger of playing it safe: caution does not always mean safety, as sometimes the cautious actions are what will get you killed.

True but more often caution helps you survive to fight another day. To play with unknown risks is to hope that your luck will last forever. It will not. Sending people charging headlong into the unknown is not a strategy that will last in the long run, but that is how Cerberus works as far as Shepard knows.

Modifié par lovgreno, 22 mai 2010 - 08:36 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would you trust his omnitool data, which was made while he was in that condition?

omnidata is alot clearer since it's an computer, it isn't manufactured by his mind.

Not true at all: what goes into the computer is a product of the mind that enters it. A computer is nothing more than a storage device of information, not a validation of the information already in it.

Very true actually. If you took my computer right now, you would find anime, music, 3D modeling programs, Adobe CS4, and various other programs on it, as well as 10 or so games. Better example - my cell phone. It has an camera on it, I recorded the collectors attack with it, would you say the data is an product of my mind? It isn't an direct link since this isn't an grey box. It's recording and taking audio data of what is in front of me, or what I am seeing. An computer can be tricked yes, but in the case of Veetor, he would have no reason to as you say, since he is sincere.  So Yes, it is Validation actually.

For example, if I say I drove from here to there in a car with a recorder, it doesn't literally mean I only drove every inch of the way. I presumably also got out and walked some. If I only recorded what I saw from the car, but saw something else when I was walking from the car to somewhere else, a recording from my car wouldn't catch it (assuming the car recorder picked everything I saw from the car in the first place).

This is why investiations are important: to collaborate, confirm, and expand on the record.

Yes well, if you don't mind torturing individuals for it. I personally am against it. I still didn't trust Cerbersus at the time, and I would rather trust the quarians over them. In the end, you have to weigh all these factors in-

Video footage, Veetor's condition, Cerbersus, Tali/Quarians feelings on the matter, Omni-tool data, Likeihood of good intell from Veetor. (probably missed an few)

It could have been fruitful, it could not be. A throughly investigation that might result in Veetor becoming dead is not worth it in my opinon. Also an Through investigation would have been pointlessly since you had an good few minutes with him and you were personally questioning him... it pretty much led no where once you got past the video feed. I sure as hell wouldn't let Cerberuss conduct the investigation without me and Tali but the storyline didn't let me, and I knew the options were cut and dry.

I trust his tool's data over him any day. especially if he's an quarian. A human, turian, asari or salarian, I would have send them to Cerbersus. 

You humans are all racist!

yes well, that's just how I see things, he was in no condition to give me any further infomation and I deemed it highly unlikely that he would be able to give me anything else considering his mental state. 

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 22 mai 2010 - 08:31 .

[Zulu_DFA]

lovgreno wrote...
 No, a soldiers work is to stay alive to fight another day.

A soldier's job is to follow orders. Staying alive is desirable, but not always expected by those who give the orders (and therefore not always possible).

When you are fighting a sh*tty war for profit and oil prices, and everybody understands that, including the soldiers, you have to maintain the "no one gets left behind" policy. When you are fighting a war for survival, sacrifices are unavoidable. Yet, if you are off the newsnet focus, you can make sacrifices even in a sh*tty war, as soldiers usually understand the risks, when they sign up. And if they don't, getting them killed is a favor to the gene pool.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Seriously, what if Cerberus is interested in something that wasn't on Veetor's omni-tool, something besides Freedom's Progress? And, in fact, they are.

Then they can go to hell. just another reason not to give them veetor. As you can probably tell, my trust of Cerbersus is how far I can throw them.

And you are given examples of what happens to people, when merc outfits interrogate them. Cerberus managed to return Veetor in one piece to the Migrant Fleet with no trace of mistreatment. Which proves they are way more professional than the Eclipse or the Blue Suns.

 but at the time, I had no way of knowing that. And given Cerbersus back history... I should trust them why? I basically just came out of a coma, 2 years 17 days later, to find out I was revived back from the dead after getting spaced, to combat an enemy that was abucting human colonists by an Orginization that killed my entire squad on Akuze (or killed 50 alliance marines on Akuze period), liked testing on biotics in brutal ways and numerous other things. I come onto freedom progress to meet one of my old crewmates who was here to get back an friend, and the entire colony is over runned by mech's by an delilious Quarian. Hell, if I had an choice, i might have jumped ship and just went back with the tali if I had the option then stick around with Cerbersus. High tail it back to Council space.

I am trying not to meta-game the circumstances here, considering all hindsight is 20/20 and thus makes this arguement pointless considering you don't get that experince yet or know of the results.

[Dean_the_Young]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would you trust his omnitool data, which was made while he was in that condition?

omnidata is alot clearer since it's an computer, it isn't manufactured by his mind.

Not true at all: what goes into the computer is a product of the mind that enters it. A computer is nothing more than a storage device of information, not a validation of the information already in it.

Very true actually. If you took my computer right now, you would find anime, music, 3D modeling programs, Adobe CS4, and various other programs on it, as well as 10 or so games. Better example - my cell phone. It has an camera on it, I recorded the collectors attack with it, would you say the data is an product of my mind? It isn't an direct link since this isn't an grey box. It's recording and taking audio data of what is in front of me, or what I am seeing. An computer can be tricked yes, but in the case of Veetor, he would have no reason to as you say, since he is sincere.  So Yes, it is Validation actually.

Veetor didn't simply record from his omnitool camera, though: he was piecing together the scattered and damaged fragments from multiple sources such as the colony camaeras. The fact that he had to piece together them strongly implies they were not intact, or complete.

Yes well, if you don't mind torturing individuals for it. I personally am against it. I still didn't trust Cerbersus at the time, and I would rather trust the quarians over them. In the end, you have to weigh all these factors in-

Video footage, Veetor's condition, Cerbersus, Tali/Quarians feelings on the matter, Omni-tool data, Likeihood of good intell from Veetor. (probably missed an few)

It could have been fruitful, it could not be. A throughly investigation that might result in Veetor becoming dead is not worth it in my opinon. Also an Through investigation would have been pointlessly since you had an good few minutes with him and you were personally questioning him... it pretty much led no where once you got past the video feed. I sure as hell wouldn't let Cerberuss conduct the investigation without me and Tali but the storyline didn't let me, and I knew the options were cut and dry.

If you judge taking the risk of losing important data in the name of not interrogating Veetor, that is your perogative. Not necessarily a wise or tactically/strategic sound decision, but yours. (And, regardless, Veetor gets debriefed by either side.)

As I said earlier, I never felt there was a delimma about not getting information from a review in the first place: I trusted Tali would get it to me, and so was perfectly content to let the Quarians give him medical care first, as opposed to Cerberus doing an interrogation first rather than let him heal. I (Shepard) wanted Tali back on my team, and I knew that it would be better to earn back her trust and keep the old team bond alive for a delayed debriefing than toss it for a necessary, but likely low-benefit, debreifing of Veetor by Cerberus.