Zulu_DFA wrote...
And you are given examples of what happens to people, when merc outfits interrogate them. Cerberus managed to return Veetor in one piece to the Migrant Fleet with no trace of mistreatment. Which proves they are way more professional than the Eclipse or the Blue Suns.
And this thread is not about Shepard's relationship with Cerberus, but about their aptitude.Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
Seriously, what if Cerberus is interested in something that wasn't on Veetor's omni-tool, something besides Freedom's Progress? And, in fact, they are.
Then they can go to hell. just another reason not to give them veetor. As you can probably tell, my trust of Cerbersus is how far I can throw them.
Blah... blah... blah...Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And you are given examples of what happens to people, when merc outfits interrogate them. Cerberus managed to return Veetor in one piece to the Migrant Fleet with no trace of mistreatment. Which proves they are way more professional than the Eclipse or the Blue Suns.
but at the time, I had no way of knowing that. And given Cerbersus back history... I should trust them why? I basically just came out of a coma, 2 years 17 days later, to find out I was revived back from the dead after getting spaced, to combat an enemy that was abucting human colonists by an Orginization that killed my entire squad on Akuze (or killed 50 alliance marines on Akuze period), liked testing on biotics in brutal ways and numerous other things. I come onto freedom progress to meet one of my old crewmates who was here to get back an friend, and the entire colony is over runned by mech's by an delilious Quarian. Hell, if I had an choice, i might have jumped ship and just went back with the tali if I had the option then stick around with Cerbersus. High tail it back to Council space.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
I am trying not to meta-game the circumstances here, considering all hindsight is 20/20 and thus makes this arguement pointless considering you don't get that experince yet or know of the results.
Sajuro wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
And you are given examples of what happens to people, when merc outfits interrogate them. Cerberus managed to return Veetor in one piece to the Migrant Fleet with no trace of mistreatment. Which proves they are way more professional than the Eclipse or the Blue Suns.
True, but being the most professional in that group is like being the thinnest kid at fat camp: you might be better, but you're still there for a reason.
The coun-no.... the Allian- no <_< hmmmmm The Qua-nooooo........... um.... Garru- no got his merc company killed. C-se- noo........ um >.> <.< the biotic god?Zulu_DFA wrote...
Sajuro wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
And you are given examples of what happens to people, when merc outfits interrogate them. Cerberus managed to return Veetor in one piece to the Migrant Fleet with no trace of mistreatment. Which proves they are way more professional than the Eclipse or the Blue Suns.
True, but being the most professional in that group is like being the thinnest kid at fat camp: you might be better, but you're still there for a reason.
So who ain't at that camp?
Since plenty of people do support Shepard regardless of his association with Cerberus, including the Council, the first part is false.lovgreno wrote...
Shepard have no one else to support his/her work due to ruined reputation thanks to Cerberus. No, a soldiers work is to stay alive to fight another day. Risks are necesary but being killed means you failed to do your job.
History also strongly indicates that they are pragmatic and even idealistic. TIM could have controlled/manipulated Shepard. He not only did not want to, he went to lengths to overrule Miranda, one of his most trusted agents.If TIM cannot controll/manipulate/controll with brainchip Shepard s/he may very well become a serious threat to him and Cerberus. To avoid that risk it would be more cost effective to kill Shepard. History strongly indicates that they are that ruthless.
Because Cerberus is effective. Glad we got that cleared up.As the entire rest of the galaxy that knows of it treats Cerberus with caution and wariness (if not fear), we can very safely infer that Cerberus has reason for that reputation, even though we have not seen it ourselves.
And considering that when working with Cerberus is common sense.
You can't know which projects will be successful until you attempt them. You're invoking the hindsight fallacy. Cerberus's unique position allows it to be much better placed to conduct certain types of research that other public entities (the Alliance) can't, whereas replicated research others can do is a waste of their resources.But the failiures of Cerberus different cells follow a very common pattern that repeats itself. Cerberus resources are big but not unlimited so a failiure draws resources that could have been used on better projects. Also if a cell makes enemies that makes a enemy for all of Cerberus. There is no reason for a victim of Cerberus to assume that the other cells are different than the one that harmed him. Again there is no reason to trust Cerberus agents when they say some cells are better than others.
As a black operation, Cerberus does not need to survive forever. The benefits of what it does do can be passed to the Alliance: the costs of what it does are weighed down on Cerberus. This was the point of it as a black ops group in the first place. If/when Cerberus ever is taken down for the consequences of its actions, it will still have accomplished it's goals and can more or less be reconstituted to burn fast, make gains, and die again.True but more often caution helps you survive to fight another day. To play with unknown risks is to hope that your luck will last forever. It will not. Sending people charging headlong into the unknown is not a strategy that will last in the long run, but that is how Cerberus works as far as Shepard knows.
True enough.Dean_the_Young wrote...
Veetor didn't simply record from his omnitool camera, though: he was piecing together the scattered and damaged fragments from multiple sources such as the colony camaeras. The fact that he had to piece together them strongly implies they were not intact, or complete.
that could be true, but from my point of view, no important data even existed, which later proved true.If you judge taking the risk of losing important data in the name of not interrogating Veetor, that is your perogative. Not necessarily a wise or tactically/strategic sound decision, but yours. (And, regardless, Veetor gets debriefed by either side.)
As I said earlier, I never felt there was a delimma about not getting information from a review in the first place: I trusted Tali would get it to me, and so was perfectly content to let the Quarians give him medical care first, as opposed to Cerberus doing an interrogation first rather than let him heal. I (Shepard) wanted Tali back on my team, and I knew that it would be better to earn back her trust and keep the old team bond alive for a delayed debriefing than toss it for a necessary, but likely low-benefit, debreifing of Veetor by Cerberus.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
]History also strongly indicates that they are pragmatic and even idealistic. TIM could have controlled/manipulated Shepard. He not only did not want to, he went to lengths to overrule Miranda, one of his most trusted agents.
Shepard is valuable to humanity regardless of what Shepard thinks of Cerberus and the Illusive Man. TIM admits this himself. Even if Shepard ignores TIM at the Collector Base, the reasons why TIM brought back an independent Shepard which had fought Cerberus in the past still apply.l
But Shepard is not a typical soldier. TIM told Shepard to do the job the way s/he felt was best so Shepard is the one defining the orders and goals of the mission. Shepard must stay alive to to gain strenght and information to fight the reapers. If s/he dies that fails. There are no one else capable or trustworthy enough to lead the team if Shepard dies. Sure Shepard can do the classical hero thing and sacrifice him/herself to kill all reapers with a Deus Ex Machina Cerberus provided but the reapers are not here yet.Zulu_DFA wrote...
A soldier's job is to follow orders. Staying alive is desirable, but not always expected by those who give the orders (and therefore not always possible).lovgreno wrote...
No, a soldiers work is to stay alive to fight another day.
When you are fighting a sh*tty war for profit and oil prices, and everybody understands that, including the soldiers, you have to maintain the "no one gets left behind" policy. When you are fighting a war for survival, sacrifices are unavoidable. Yet, if you are off the newsnet focus, you can make sacrifices even in a sh*tty war, as soldiers usually understand the risks, when they sign up. And if they don't, getting them killed is a favor to the gene pool.
And he could easily have had pieces he couldn't stream together. How would you know without asking him?Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
True enough.Dean_the_Young wrote...
Veetor didn't simply record from his omnitool camera, though: he was piecing together the scattered and damaged fragments from multiple sources such as the colony camaeras. The fact that he had to piece together them strongly implies they were not intact, or complete.
Splicing in video editing could be as simple as making it all roll together as one film instead of 3-5 "Five seconds films". It's very hard to piece together corrupted video file. Have you ever played one? I have, it plays and skips around from the begining to the end, to the middle etc. He could have simply extracted all the frames of video he could from the corrupted sources and put them into an video editor timeline, and have it all played as one video.
An objectivist would argue that your point of view is irrelevant to whether verifiable facts exist or not. Either it does or it does not, and your opinion does not matter.that could be true, but from my point of view, no important data even existed, which later proved true.If you judge taking the risk of losing important data in the name of not interrogating Veetor, that is your perogative. Not necessarily a wise or tactically/strategic sound decision, but yours. (And, regardless, Veetor gets debriefed by either side.)
Much better argument for not giving Veetor to Cerberus!I have to admit, that played an medium factor on me, I liked the quarians, tali as well and didn't want to spoil my potetinal only link to the outside because of it. As far as I knew at the time, I could be three missions further down the road and I'm running and hiding from Cerbersus as they hunt me down... and I happen to bump into Tali and have to try to convince her to rescue my ***. XD
Sajuro wrote...
The coun-no.... the Allian- no <_< hmmmmm The Qua-nooooo........... um.... Garru- no got his merc company killed. C-se- noo........ um >.> <.< the biotic god?Zulu_DFA wrote...
Sajuro wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
And you are given examples of what happens to people, when merc outfits interrogate them. Cerberus managed to return Veetor in one piece to the Migrant Fleet with no trace of mistreatment. Which proves they are way more professional than the Eclipse or the Blue Suns.
True, but being the most professional in that group is like being the thinnest kid at fat camp: you might be better, but you're still there for a reason.
So who ain't at that camp?
.
No he doesn't.Sajuro wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
]History also strongly indicates that they are pragmatic and even idealistic. TIM could have controlled/manipulated Shepard. He not only did not want to, he went to lengths to overrule Miranda, one of his most trusted agents.
Shepard is valuable to humanity regardless of what Shepard thinks of Cerberus and the Illusive Man. TIM admits this himself. Even if Shepard ignores TIM at the Collector Base, the reasons why TIM brought back an independent Shepard which had fought Cerberus in the past still apply.l
Cerberus is Idealistic..... the man chastices you for being to idealistic from the start if you don't say all aliens are bastards.
So the only competent people in the ME verse are a drugged up volus and an undercover investigator who may or may not be into Asari S&M?Zulu_DFA wrote...
Sajuro wrote...
The coun-no.... the Allian- no <_< hmmmmm The Qua-nooooo........... um.... Garru- no got his merc company killed. C-se- noo........ um >.> <.< the biotic god?Zulu_DFA wrote...
Sajuro wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
And you are given examples of what happens to people, when merc outfits interrogate them. Cerberus managed to return Veetor in one piece to the Migrant Fleet with no trace of mistreatment. Which proves they are way more professional than the Eclipse or the Blue Suns.
True, but being the most professional in that group is like being the thinnest kid at fat camp: you might be better, but you're still there for a reason.
So who ain't at that camp?
Gianna Parasini
In ME1 she actually jeopardizes her chances to complete her mission by asking Shepard to assist. Shepard can get her killed (Anoleis is still removed, though). But from ME2 we know that she is able to nail him even without Shepard's help.
Modifié par Sajuro, 22 mai 2010 - 09:21 .
lovgreno wrote...
But Shepard is not a typical soldier. TIM told Shepard...
Sajuro wrote...
Double post! Oh noes!
Remind me when TIM forces Shepard to do unnecessary danger for anything except fighting the Reapers?lovgreno wrote...
But Shepard is not a typical soldier. TIM told Shepard to do the job the way s/he felt was best so Shepard is the one defining the orders and goals of the mission. Shepard must stay alive to to gain strenght and information to fight the reapers. If s/he dies that fails. There are no one else capable or trustworthy enough to lead the team if Shepard dies. Sure Shepard can do the classical hero thing and sacrifice him/herself to kill all reapers with a Deus Ex Machina Cerberus provided but the reapers are not here yet.Zulu_DFA wrote...
A soldier's job is to follow orders. Staying alive is desirable, but not always expected by those who give the orders (and therefore not always possible).lovgreno wrote...
No, a soldiers work is to stay alive to fight another day.
When you are fighting a sh*tty war for profit and oil prices, and everybody understands that, including the soldiers, you have to maintain the "no one gets left behind" policy. When you are fighting a war for survival, sacrifices are unavoidable. Yet, if you are off the newsnet focus, you can make sacrifices even in a sh*tty war, as soldiers usually understand the risks, when they sign up. And if they don't, getting them killed is a favor to the gene pool.
taken out of context, but she likes to hear them squealZulu_DFA wrote...
Sajuro wrote...
Double post! Oh noes!
Why do you think Gianna may be into Asari S&M?
Sajuro wrote...
taken out of context, but she likes to hear them squealZulu_DFA wrote...
Sajuro wrote...
Double post! Oh noes!
Why do you think Gianna may be into Asari S&M?
I was under the impression that you would want her as something other than your mother in lawZulu_DFA wrote...
Sajuro wrote...
taken out of context, but she likes to hear them squealZulu_DFA wrote...
Sajuro wrote...
Double post! Oh noes!
Why do you think Gianna may be into Asari S&M?
Right. She's a dominant type. Wouldn't want her as my mother-in-law!!!
Asheer_Khan wrote...
Since when doctor Wilson poses high security codes allowed him to overwrite security mechs protocols and turn them against station personel in section to which he apparently should not even have an access?
GothamLord wrote...
Asheer_Khan wrote...
Since when doctor Wilson poses high security codes allowed him to overwrite security mechs protocols and turn them against station personel in section to which he apparently should not even have an access?
Its possible that Wilson had some hacking skills. Shepard himself can hack the large Eclipse Mech in Garrus' recruitment mission so it turns on the mercs later in the assault. Also Veetor was able to reprogram the mechs on Freedom's Progress. Its not that far fetched.
Asheer_Khan wrote...
GothamLord wrote...
Asheer_Khan wrote...
Since when doctor Wilson poses high security codes allowed him to overwrite security mechs protocols and turn them against station personel in section to which he apparently should not even have an access?
Its possible that Wilson had some hacking skills. Shepard himself can hack the large Eclipse Mech in Garrus' recruitment mission so it turns on the mercs later in the assault. Also Veetor was able to reprogram the mechs on Freedom's Progress. Its not that far fetched.
True. however from ALL Cerberus stations Lazarus should poses absolute top security measures whit access absolute limited to necessary minimum strict selected tech teams (for maintanance purposes) regarding fact who is the subject of the Lazarus Project procedure .
Then if mere doc was able to reprogramed all those security mechs then this would be rather poor example of Cerberus security protocols.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
If they were reprogrammed from the outside, yes. From the inside, mechs and systems have to be able to be able to be reprogrammed by the system users. The question is not how he hacked them, but how he got clearance. He could have hacked that from his already privileged access, could have stolen someone else's access in the same way you can steal a roommate's keys, or could have had help from the outside, say the Collectors.
It's pretty much impossible to stop someone from becoming a traitor, and it's amazingly hard to catch one if you aren't looking for him or her.
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