1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

We never see any dead mech skeletons anywhere, so it's not like we can say that the mechs didn't shoot him: he could have been double-crossed, and whatever codes he put into the mechs turned on him as well.



We simply don't know what exactly happened there.

[GothamLord]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

We never see any dead mech skeletons anywhere, so it's not like we can say that the mechs didn't shoot him: he could have been double-crossed, and whatever codes he put into the mechs turned on him as well.

We simply don't know what exactly happened there.

The fact there are no dead mechs around proves more the fact he self-inflicted his wound. Wilson is armed, as you take him as a squadmember.  Between the time you hear Wilson screaming for help on the radio he'd been shot and the time you arrive in the room, there would have either been a mech you ran passed or a dead mech that he would have taken out upon getting hit himself.

There is however another dead body in the room....

Modifié par GothamLord, 23 mai 2010 - 12:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

That would be conclusive if we saw dead mechs in other places. As we never see any dead mech corpses in other places, but we do see dead people, it's more of the same. (Or, to rephrase: we saw dead people without dead mechs, but that doesn't mean they killed themselves.)

[Asheer_Khan]

I just watched on Youtube clip whit Mr Wilson.



He was pretty surprised when he learn via comlink that Shepard is actually alive and that surprise was made in rather negative notion than positive.



Then meeting...whit him.

Pretty much everything looks like a perfect set up scene to convince Shepard and Jacob that he was wounded by actually non existent mech.



I can actually agree whit theory that Wilson could obtain via intimidation pass card and necessary to access password, however because of his apparent lack (OR he is perfect actor by the way) of knowledge how to programed mechs he unleash techno hell within station.



That's why i think as well that this first cutscene looks for me now more like Wilson's first attempt to kill Shep when he realized that Lazarus will succeed and when that failed thanks to Miranda's intervention he engage stage 2 what in the end cost him his own life.

[Dean_the_Young]

The ambiguity is pretty impressive: has Wilson been a traitor for some time, trying to kill Shepard first by 'accident' and then by mech, and tried to cover it up? Or is Wilson the sincerely aggrieved and under-appreciated who, neglected for his role in breaking the laws of nature, is then turned into a scape goat for an outsider attack that he tried to stop? Is this event, in fact, some sort of convulted 'test' for Shepard and a cover-up at the same time, confirming Shepard's abilities and silencing loose ends now that the project is completed?

[GothamLord]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That would be conclusive if we saw dead mechs in other places. As we never see any dead mech corpses in other places, but we do see dead people, it's more of the same. (Or, to rephrase: we saw dead people without dead mechs, but that doesn't mean they killed themselves.)

What are you talking about?  There would be dead mechs for anyone that wasnt caught off guard and was armed that could defend themselves.   Wilson reprogramed the mechs from a safe location and then shot himself when Shepard was getting close by.  Wilson couldnt even stand we you find him.  He wouldnt have been able to walk let alone run from a mech.  There was no fallen mech near Wilson.  

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The worse shape is pretty easily explained as thanks to the respirator issues: not being able to breath will make any experience worse. It's the concept behind water boarding, which is more or less a torture-interrogation technique. Drugging someone who already has trouble breathing would be a traumatic experience without any sort of beating, finger breaking, or such traditional torture thrown in.

Your point is completely irrelevant. Cerberus was aware of Veetor's breathing problems and they chose to drug him anyway. As you say this would be a "traumatic experience", hence I believe we can safely assume that this caused Veetor severe mental pain. Whether Cerberus caused his respirator issue or exploited is not an important distinction in the least because they still were responsible for causing his suffering.  

1. 'Absolved of what?' is the question. Murder? Then yes, you would be absolved of murder. Is it morally wrong to leave a dying man alone? Sure, so long as saving him does not endanger others. Is it the same as killing the man yourself? Not by any sensible uniform measure. It is something to be condemned for, but not the same in level or intensity as causing it. (Otherwise, you'd be guilty of standing by when poor children starve because you aren't giving all your extra money to charity.) 

To start off, your example of the starving children is a false comparision. It differs because it requires a substantial amount of effort for an unknown result in comparison to the dying man example where a simple phone (effort) will result in the man surviving his injury.

But here's where I really take issue with your attempt to divide torture into simple positive and negative actions. Veetor was released into Cerberus' custody who were attempting to obtain certain information. Even if we accept that they did not actively make his condition worse, in order to prevent Veetor from leaving to seek medical attention, they would need to exert a "positive action" probably in the form of force to hold him, which caused prolonged suffering. We also know they weren't "gentle". Now consider the state you find Veetor in on the Flotilla. Had he not been released into Cerberus' custody, he would not have remained in that condition. So considering this take on positive/negative actions, is that really sufficient to determine whether they tortured Veetor?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 mai 2010 - 01:44 .

[Dean_the_Young]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The worse shape is pretty easily explained as thanks to the respirator issues: not being able to breath will make any experience worse. It's the concept behind water boarding, which is more or less a torture-interrogation technique. Drugging someone who already has trouble breathing would be a traumatic experience without any sort of beating, finger breaking, or such traditional torture thrown in.

Your point is completely irrelevant. Cerberus was aware of Veetor's breathing problems and they chose to drug him anyway. As you say this would be a "traumatic experience", hence I believe we can safely assume that this caused Veetor severe mental pain. Whether Cerberus caused his respirator issue or exploited is not an important distinction in the least because they still were responsible for causing his suffering. 

You can not cause pre-existing suffering. You can increase the suffering. You can allow it to continue. But you can not cause something that existed before you arrived.

To start off, your example of the starving children is a false comparision. It differs because it requires a substantial amount of effort for an unknown result in comparison to the dying man example where a simple phone (effort) will result in the man surviving his injury.

It takes a simple google search and less than five minutes to donate money to feed a child. Five minutes is less than most phone calls. It probably took you more time and effort to type this reply than it would to donate to any number of well-respected charities.

You could be saving lives right now by donating to charities. You could be doing community service. So why are you here, on the internet, wasting time arguing with someone you'll never meet?

But here's where I really take issue with your attempt to divide torture into simple positive and negative actions. Veetor was released into Cerberus' custody who were attempting to obtain certain information. Even if we accept that they did not actively make his condition worse, in order to prevent Veetor from leaving to seek medical attention, they would need to exert a "positive action" probably in the form of force to hold him, which caused prolonged suffering. We also know they weren't "gentle". Now consider the state you find Veetor in on the Flotilla. Had he not been released into Cerberus' custody, he would not have remained in that condition. So considering this take on positive/negative actions, is that really sufficient to determine whether they tortured Veetor?

Yes. Taking your position that they did not actively make his condition worse, they did not torture Veetor by the standard definitions of torture. (IE, causing extreme pain and suffering.)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 mai 2010 - 02:16 .

[GothamLord]

Shandepared wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

The fact there are no dead mechs around proves more the fact he self-inflicted his wound.

There is a dead Cerberus officer in the room.

Edit: which I just realized you acknowledged. In any case I think it is mostly likely that dead officer is responsible for Wilson's wound.

Your welcome to think that. As anything is open for speculation.  However I feel the scenario would be more Wilson forced that said Cerberus Op to provide him with secure codes and then proceeded to kill them. Then self-inflicting it.  Though a struggle for the gun could have resulted wounding Wilson before he killed the Op.   Either way the end result is Wilson still killed the person there after getting security codes. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I don't blame Miranda for shotting Wilson since she acted under typical for such situation rule.
"Found security breach - eliminate him" but because of that Wilson's acting will remain (perhaps forever) a mystery - "Why he done what he done and who actually helped him".

And I don't blame her either. It appears that Wilson had entertained some ideas about her that she might not have liked, so she naturally took pleasure in what she did.

But, given the situation: fighting died down in the shuttle bay, Wilson already wounded, one doctor against three soldiers (at least two of whom are biotics), what "danger" could he possibly present? Unless he'd swallowed a grenade with a string tied to the pin... Even then Miranda could have shot him in the knee caps and knocked him unconsious. If there was any sign of a security breach that Miranda or TIM were unaware of Wilson must have been taken alive for interrogation.

Killing Wilson was a cover up. So Shepard's "field test" was planned for in advance. That said, it doesn't mean Wilson, and may be some other personnel left for dead on the station was not conspiring against Cerberus, which was most probably directed from outside. But TIM had full knowledge of that and therefore some control (via some mole in Wilson's ring), which allowed to delay the attack until the Lazarus project was almost complete (and the "almost" issue could be removed off site), then withdraw most of the valuable loyal personnel from the station and inform Miranda about Wilson's defection.

Wilson might have believed he had the upper hand against Cerberus, but all the time he was just a puppet in TIM's theater.

This is also supported by TIM's casuality in confirming that Wilson was a traitor, when you raise the question in your first conversation. He may fully trust Miranda's word to a certain degree, but he'd be interested in your version of what happened, if it was all news to him.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 mai 2010 - 06:56 .

[GothamLord]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I don't blame Miranda for shotting Wilson since she acted under typical for such situation rule.
"Found security breach - eliminate him" but because of that Wilson's acting will remain (perhaps forever) a mystery - "Why he done what he done and who actually helped him".

And I don't blame her either. It appears that Wilson had entertained some ideas about her that she might not have liked, so she naturally took pleasure in what she did.

But, given the situation: fighting died down in the shuttle bay, Wilson already wounded, one doctor against three soldiers (at least two of whom are biotics), what "danger" could he possibly present? Unless he'd swallowed a grenade with a string tied to the pin... Even then Miranda could have shot him in the knee caps and knocked him unconsious. If there was any sign of a security breach that Miranda or TIM were unaware of Wilson must have been taken alive for interrogation.

Killing Wilson was a cover up. So Shepard's "field test" was planned for in advance. That said, it doesn't mean Wilson, and may be some other personnel left for dead on the station was not conspiring against Cerberus, which was most probably directed from outside. But TIM had full knowledge of that and therefore some control (via some mole in Wilson's ring), which allowed to delay the attack until the Lazarus project was almost complete (and the "almost" issue could be removed off site), then withdraw most of the valuable loyal personnel from the station and inform Miranda about Wilson's defection.

Wilson might have believed he had the upper hand against Cerberus, but all the time he was just a puppet in TIM's theater.

This is also supported by TIM's casuality in confirming that Wilson was a traitor, when you raise the question in your first conversation. He may fully trust Miranda's word to a certain degree, but he'd be interested in your version of what happened, if it was all news to him.

I agree with you on alot of the Cerberus/Alliance theories Zulu, but I just cant bite on this one.  Yes killing Wilson was mostly likely due to figuring out he was the traitor and to cover up him running his mouth to Shepard on other issues. Its doubtful TIM needed to question him for anything, with his resources for information gathering, so like all traitors Wilson got a bullet to the head/throat/whatever.  I cant see the whole Cerberus facility thing being a "field test" though.  It might have turned into an unexpected chance to test to see if Shepard was up to snuff but I dont think it was set up for that.

[Zulu_DFA]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Your point is completely irrelevant. Cerberus was aware of Veetor's breathing problems and they chose to drug him anyway. As you say this would be a "traumatic experience", hence I believe we can safely assume that this caused Veetor severe mental pain. Whether Cerberus caused his respirator issue or exploited is not an important distinction in the least because they still were responsible for causing his suffering.  

Like pain can be anything but mental. Veetor was interrogated, and he suffered. Yet he remained alive, in one piece and partly sane, and after some treament will be able to reintegrate in the Quarian society. That's not what happened to Cerberus operative Tyrone Rollings captured by the Eclipse, and the ExoGeni representative captured by the Blue Suns. Hence, conjecture: Cerberus is more professional at extracting information from people than mercenary companies.

And this thread is not about Cerberus being bad or not. It's about how good they are at being bad, or whatever they try to be. So save your "poor Veetor" whining for the other threads, like this one:

Cerberus is good. End of story.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 mai 2010 - 07:21 .

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
As the entire rest of the galaxy that knows of it treats Cerberus with caution and wariness (if not fear), we can very safely infer that Cerberus has reason for that reputation, even though we have not seen it ourselves.

And considering that when working with Cerberus is common sense.

Because Cerberus is effective. Glad we got that cleared up.

It only shows that Cerberus is effective at making powerfull enemies. Cerberus being effective in creating greater good in the longer and greater scheme of things is still something we have trust TIMs word for. Wich we still can't.

A bad reputation and secrets are often misstaken to be a sign of evil. Often it's true but it's more often a sign of incompetence. Competent people makes their actions, good or evil, popular or their efforts may backfire on themselves in the long run. This is of course speculation in Cerberus case as we don't know much about them but I think it's something Shepard would be wise to strongly consider when dealing with Cerberus.

But these debates are going in circles, not suprising as we are discussing a fictional covert operation working outside of the law and popular definitions or moraly acceptable methods. I'ts not that difficult to come up with arguments for or against something so almost totaly vague.

But perhaps the writers could come up with a sollution that works for both the pro and anti Cerberus debaters? Sure this would not please those who needs to be totaly right and considers anyone disagreeing with them stupid, a jerk, evil, naive, whiners or some other lazy simplification. But they will never be content so let's just ignore them.

What about if TIM early realised that Cerberus was soon about to outlive it's usefullness? The many violent failiures, security leaks, dropouts and increasing numbers of enemies would be a sing hard to dismiss. TIM is a practical and ruthless man, he would not keep Cerberus running just to prove that he is right. He may be willing to even sacrifice himself and his organisation for the greater good.
Shepard have no reason to trust him to do this of course, as far as s/he knows he could just as well become a classic manipulating villain.  Best to not risk that if you can avoid it.
But back to TIM, with Cerberus unevitable destruction in the near future he sets himself up to be defeated by Shepard. He binds corrupt politicians, ruthless buisnesspeople, dangerous criminals, scientists with questionable methods and other humans who are a liability to human survival to him so that he can take them down with him when Cerberus is defeated. By making himself the human villain defeated by the human hero Shepard he makes the rest of the humanity look better in the eyes of alien superpowers. It's better to have all those alien dreadnoughts aiming at humanitys enemies than aiming at humanity. This sollution will hurt the pride of those who thinks giving anything to the aliens is a sign of weakness but such narrow minded people are a liability anyway.
Not the most realistic idea I agree but I think it might become a good story anyway. And a good story is what's most important.

Modifié par lovgreno, 23 mai 2010 - 07:26 .

[Zulu_DFA]

GothamLord wrote...
I cant see the whole Cerberus facility thing being a "field test" though.  It might have turned into an unexpected chance to test to see if Shepard was up to snuff but I dont think it was set up for that.

What about a pistol and a full set of improved N7 armor so [Joram Talid's airquotes] "convenienlty" stored next to Shepards berth in what's basically a medical ward?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 mai 2010 - 07:30 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Quote boxes are there for a reason.

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
As the entire rest of the galaxy that knows of it treats Cerberus with caution and wariness (if not fear), we can very safely infer that Cerberus has reason for that reputation, even though we have not seen it ourselves.

And considering that when working with Cerberus is common sense.

Exactly. You're agreeing with me more now. We should consider Cerberus's reputation for general success when we work with it. Common sense.

Because Cerberus is effective. Glad we got that cleared up.

It only shows that Cerberus is effective at making powerfull enemies.

Cerberus wouldn't be effective at making powerful enemies and yet still surviving if it weren't effective operationally. It would just be dead.

The rest of your entire post makes no addressing to the point one way or another of Cerberus being competant or not (besides a minor note that this is a work of fiction, and Cerberus failures being a point of dramatic interest while successes are not), so there's no point in replying to them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GothamLord wrote...
I cant see the whole Cerberus facility thing being a "field test" though.  It might have turned into an unexpected chance to test to see if Shepard was up to snuff but I dont think it was set up for that.

What about a pistol and a full set of improved N7 armor so [Joram Talid's airquotes] "convenienlty" stored next to Shepards berth in what's basically a medical ward?

Since Shepard was pretty much waking up already, having his gear brought in to make him/her feel more secure once he woke up could be a sign of initial trust, an olive branch.

An out-of-universe reason would be gameplay necessity to advance the story, without pointing one way or another.

Certainly there is no dialogue suggesting that this is a deliberate test for Shepard from Jacob, Miranda, or TIM.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Certainly there is no dialogue suggesting that this is a deliberate test for Shepard from Jacob, Miranda, or TIM.

Except for the slight hint in the end of the "memory quiz" on the way to the Minuteman station, when Miranda literally calls what just happened "a field test".

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You can not cause pre-existing suffering. You can increase the suffering. You can allow it to continue. But you can not cause something that existed before you arrived. 

"Increase the suffering". You said it right there. If Veetor is suffering mildly before entering Cerberus' care and is now suffering to a greater extent after leaving their possession, then they have augmented his suffering, no? Turning a minor or pre-existing injury into a more severe one would involve some sort of active measure.

You could be saving lives right now by donating to charities. You could be doing community service. So why are you here, on the internet, wasting time arguing with someone you'll never meet?

Despite your attempts to push aside my point, your argument does you no credit. "Minimal effort" for easily visible results. That is what my example illustrates. Minimal effort is the phone call for an ambulance. Easily visible result is that they come to aid the dying man. This is not the case with your example. Donating charity takes five minutes, but how much time/effort did it take for me to earn that money? Do I even know precisely where it will go? How much good it will do, etc. I personally don't even have such resources as a poor college student. Your comparison is invalid.

Yes. Taking your position that they did not actively make his condition worse, they did not torture Veetor by the standard definitions of torture. (IE, causing extreme pain and suffering.)

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.
-UN's definition of torture.

They were aware that he had a respirator issue, were they not? They also actively confined him and drugged him, which are positive actions as you point out and caused Veetor extreme pain and suffering, which he would not have suffered had he been returned to the Quarians. This was all done with the purpose of obtaining information. I believe this would be considered torture.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 mai 2010 - 02:41 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Like pain can be anything but mental. Veetor was interrogated, and he suffered. Yet he remained alive, in one piece and partly sane, and after some treament will be able to reintegrate in the Quarian society. That's not what happened to Cerberus operative Tyrone Rollings captured by the Eclipse, and the ExoGeni representative captured by the Blue Suns. Hence, conjecture: Cerberus is more professional at extracting information from people than mercenary companies.

So he suffered as a result of his interrogation, including malnutrition. An interrogation I believe Cerberus led where they augmented his suffering. Watch the youtube video again. If you consider Veetor sane, then I must question your own sanity in this instance.

However regardless here we have an instance where Cerberus could have taken some basic action to improve relations with the Quarians. They could have cured Veetor while extracting this information and perhaps redeemed themselves in the eyes of the Quarians. International relations is an important aspect of politics, I believe. Even from a terrorist organization, it does not seem sensible to continue pissing off the entire galactic community when you have a threat like the Reapers on hand.

And this thread is not about Cerberus being bad or not. It's about how good they are at being bad, or whatever they try to be. So save your "poor Veetor" whining for the other threads, like this one:
.

On the contrary, I personally don't care whether Veetor was tortured for its own sake. Cerberus is a major galactic organization, yes? As such, it is important that they examine every tool which they have at their disposal, including torture. Failure to do so means limiting yourself by some false sense of morality which rarely exists on the global/universal scale. What I am calling into question is Cerberus' wisdom in choosing to use torture in this instance. It gives the impression more that they must "fill the role" as being stereotypically evil when it had absolutely no purpose.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 23 mai 2010 - 02:53 .

[legbamel]

lovgreno wrote...
[snipped for length]
What about if TIM early realised that Cerberus was soon about to outlive it's usefullness? The many violent failiures, security leaks, dropouts and increasing numbers of enemies would be a sing hard to dismiss. TIM is a practical and ruthless man, he would not keep Cerberus running just to prove that he is right. He may be willing to even sacrifice himself and his organisation for the greater good.
Shepard have no reason to trust him to do this of course, as far as s/he knows he could just as well become a classic manipulating villain.  Best to not risk that if you can avoid it.
But back to TIM, with Cerberus unevitable destruction in the near future he sets himself up to be defeated by Shepard. He binds corrupt politicians, ruthless buisnesspeople, dangerous criminals, scientists with questionable methods and other humans who are a liability to human survival to him so that he can take them down with him when Cerberus is defeated. By making himself the human villain defeated by the human hero Shepard he makes the rest of the humanity look better in the eyes of alien superpowers. It's better to have all those alien dreadnoughts aiming at humanitys enemies than aiming at humanity. This sollution will hurt the pride of those who thinks giving anything to the aliens is a sign of weakness but such narrow minded people are a liability anyway.

Not the most realistic idea I agree but I think it might become a good story anyway. And a good story is what's most important.

Now that is an interesting idea.  TIM sets up as many corrupt powers as he can, linking them with people whose views are detrimental to the security of the galaxy as a whole, and then discredits them all in one fell swoop.  Then we could have a big reveal cut scene where a dying TIM confesses his actions and explains that we had him wrong the whole time but that he couldn't tell us in case our actions gave away his big secret to those he was trying to trick.  Hmm, that excuse explanation sounds familiar.

[Zulu_DFA]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Watch the youtube video again. If you consider Veetor sane, then I must question your own sanity in this instance.

However regardless here we have an instance where Cerberus could have taken some basic action to improve relations with the Quarians. They could have cured Veetor while extracting this information and perhaps redeemed themselves in the eyes of the Quarians. International relations is an important aspect of politics, I believe.

I don't have to watch that video, I've seen it in my own game. And yes, Veetor is partly sane, because he recognizes the name of Shepard, and remebers Shepard's actions correctly. This shows that his mental capacity is not entirely deteriorated. He misakes Shepard for a husk at first, but that's because Shepard is an alien to him! In any case, Veetor's condition is not much worse, than it was when Shepard found him on Freedom's Progress.

And the "diplomatic relations" seem to be quite improved, if you take the Ascention backstory into account. Tali is allowed to serve aboard a Cerberus ship, and then Cerberus crew is allowed to step on board of the capital Quarian ship. And the Quarian doctor attending to Veetor almost defends Shepard from Tali's accusations!

And don't be silly, who else can provide better medical treatment for a Quarian, than the Quarians? So Veetor was returned to the Migrant Fleet as soon as Cerberus was done with him.

[Dean_the_Young]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You can not cause pre-existing suffering. You can increase the suffering. You can allow it to continue. But you can not cause something that existed before you arrived. 

"Increase the suffering". You said it right there. If Veetor is suffering mildly before entering Cerberus' care and is now suffering to a greater extent after leaving their possession, then they have augmented his suffering, no? Turning a minor or pre-existing injury into a more severe one would involve some sort of active measure.

No it wouldn't: minor issues can quite easily become major concerns if no action at all is taken. Disease, stress, health, to name the most relevant.

The words you quoted were only in response to your assertion that Cerberus caused Veetor's condition, nothing more. I was stressing that of all the things you can do (not did do), causing something that already existed is not one of them.

You could be saving lives right now by donating to charities. You could be doing community service. So why are you here, on the internet, wasting time arguing with someone you'll never meet?

Despite your attempts to push aside my point, your argument does you no credit. "Minimal effort" for easily visible results. That is what my example illustrates. Minimal effort is the phone call for an ambulance. Easily visible result is that they come to aid the dying man. This is not the case with your example. Donating charity takes five minutes, but how much time/effort did it take for me to earn that money? Do I even know precisely where it will go? How much good it will do, etc. I personally don't even have such resources as a poor college student. Your comparison is invalid.

As a college student, you're already spending thousands of dollars for your own advancement that could be spent on people in need. If you're a state-level school, that's tens of thousands more than even a local college.

The fact that you're on this forum in the first place means that you have the time and you or someone you know spent half a hundred dollars or so on a luxury good rather than spent that money to help people. And that's assuming you're a total school worm with no time for friends, dating, drinking, parties, or video games.

You have the time to be here, and you have the money to be in college. Making a small donation that could save lives is not beyond your means or time.

If you call an ambulance, your only immediate satisfaction is to see the vehicle drive up and drive away. You don't necessarily know where it's going. You won't know if the man survives to the hospital, if he recovers, if he lives a happy life. Your only gratification is to see a vehicle move. Besides the pettiness of someone who only acts for immediate gratification, that's little different from a thank-you email with pictures of the child you 'adopted' on the charity site.

Yes. Taking your position that they did not actively make his condition worse, they did not torture Veetor by the standard definitions of torture. (IE, causing extreme pain and suffering.)

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.
-UN's definition of torture.

They were aware that he had a respirator issue, were they not? They also actively confined him and drugged him, which are positive actions as you point out and caused Veetor extreme pain and suffering, which he would not have suffered had he been returned to the Quarians. This was all done with the purpose of obtaining information. I believe this would be considered torture.

Your own definition impresses the necessity of positive action. The UN recognizes that it is an action, not a lack of action.

Confining someone is not an act of torture, or else you would have to admit that all unwilling incarceration is torture. (Some have argued this.). Once on the shuttle, Veetor couldn't even go anywhere. Druging someone is also not an act of torture, unless those drugs cause pain.

Actively asphixiating someone would be torture. Standing by while someone asphixiates is disgusting, but an entirely different level and act from torture.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 mai 2010 - 05:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Certainly there is no dialogue suggesting that this is a deliberate test for Shepard from Jacob, Miranda, or TIM.

Except for the slight hint in the end of the "memory quiz" on the way to the Minuteman station, when Miranda literally calls what just happened "a field test".

Whithout any implication that it was intended or planned ahead of time.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Certainly there is no dialogue suggesting that this is a deliberate test for Shepard from Jacob, Miranda, or TIM.

Except for the slight hint in the end of the "memory quiz" on the way to the Minuteman station, when Miranda literally calls what just happened "a field test".

Whithout any implication that it was intended or planned ahead of time.

If there was such an implication, it wouldn't be a "slight hint". It would be a bold evidence, and there would be nothing to discuss.