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[Dean_the_Young]

Without any implication, it isn't a hint at all. A hint has some source of validity in context.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Without any implication, it isn't a hint at all. A hint has some source of validity in context.

The context is Miranda and TIM were awfully unmoved by what happend. Not even so much as to expess any concern about the possibility of an alternate outcome, or how fortunate it was that Shepard made it... Like it had been simulated, and the odds of failure had proven negligible. (By contrast, later in conversations TIM occasionally uses specific words to describe favorable circumstances beyond his contol.)

[Dean_the_Young]

You're demonstrating a confirmation bias here, taking anything and reading into it what confirms your views. Miranda is not overly concerned (except for when she was, talking you through the tutorial sector), therefore it must have been a simulation. TIM was not openly concerned (he never is: he just accepts the danger you face and says Miranda did her job), therefore that collaborates the first.



The biggest problem with the 'it was all a test' conspiracy is just how Byzantine it has to be. To be a coordinated, controlled test, Cerberus is risking all the progress they made on an un-woken subject and putting a potentially delirious subject into serious danger. Meanwhile the entire station crew and Lazarus cell is being wiped out (as part of this test which could still fail), personnel who would be necessary to restart the experiment in case of failure. And all of this... for what? It doesn't make Shepard trust Cerberus. (The need to work with them comes from Freedom's Progress.) It doesn't provide good testing (lack of equipment for good measuring). It does kill a lot of useful people.



When fighting Occam's Razor in favor of convulsive conspiracies, you need implications and support to be seriously considered. Throwing out everything else in favor of a cherry picked quote that could have any number of non-sinister meanings is not support.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You're demonstrating a confirmation bias here, taking anything and reading into it what confirms your views. Miranda is not overly concerned (except for when she was, talking you through the tutorial sector), therefore it must have been a simulation. TIM was not openly concerned (he never is: he just accepts the danger you face and says Miranda did her job), therefore that collaborates the first.

The biggest problem with the 'it was all a test' conspiracy is just how Byzantine it has to be. To be a coordinated, controlled test, Cerberus is risking all the progress they made on an un-woken subject and putting a potentially delirious subject into serious danger. Meanwhile the entire station crew and Lazarus cell is being wiped out (as part of this test which could still fail), personnel who would be necessary to restart the experiment in case of failure. And all of this... for what? It doesn't make Shepard trust Cerberus. (The need to work with them comes from Freedom's Progress.) It doesn't provide good testing (lack of equipment for good measuring). It does kill a lot of useful people.

When fighting Occam's Razor in favor of convulsive conspiracies, you need implications and support to be seriously considered. Throwing out everything else in favor of a cherry picked quote that could have any number of non-sinister meanings is not support.

As I stated before, if TIM was aware of the conspiracy aboard the station, most "useful people" may have been withdrawn prior to the incident. Then some "useful people" may have been set to escape during the incident (before Shepard is able are able to reach the shuttle bay). Most of the killed personnel might have been confirmed or suspected of collaborationg with Wilson. For such a confined space with routine scheduled circulation of personnel and material (like security mechs) it's not that hard to run precise simulations.

Now, I admit it's all just an assumption, but it's a viable assumption, and it works well for me. The biggest evidence being not the "field test" hint or any context, but Miranda wasting Wilson.

And, although we know from Willson's log he was disgruntled, I can't sse him just giving up on Shepard. Most probably his plan was to sell a fully rebuilt Shepard to an outside party, the Shadow Broker, for instance... And he was 100% sincere that this mech attack was a bad surprize for him, correctly pinpointing Miranda as the one who hit "execute".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 mai 2010 - 09:31 .

[finnithe]

The stuff they do is pretty high-risk, so it's no surprise that half of it fails. They did manage to revive Shepard, and they seem to have control of the Terra Firma Party based on what Paul Grayson did in the second ME novel.

[Sajuro]

finnithe wrote...

The stuff they do is pretty high-risk, so it's no surprise that half of it fails. They did manage to revive Shepard, and they seem to have control of the Terra Firma Party based on what Paul Grayson did in the second ME novel.

Though Shepard's revival did end in a blood bath, and I was thinking that Terra Firma was right up Cerberus' alley even without reading either of the books

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

 don't have to watch that video, I've seen it in my own game. And yes, Veetor is partly sane, because he recognizes the name of Shepard, and remebers Shepard's actions correctly. This shows that his mental capacity is not entirely deteriorated. He misakes Shepard for a husk at first, but that's because Shepard is an alien to him! In any case, Veetor's condition is not much worse, than it was when Shepard found him on Freedom's Progress.

Shepard is an alien to him? Had Veetor not encountered other humans on Freedom's Progress where he was found? I would think he could instantly recognize the difference between a husk and a human. Veetor recalls Shepard's name and that he gave him to Cerberus. Following this, he is reduced to insane babbling.

And the "diplomatic relations" seem to be quite improved, if you take the Ascention backstory into account. Tali is allowed to serve aboard a Cerberus ship, and then Cerberus crew is allowed to step on board of the capital Quarian ship. And the Quarian doctor attending to Veetor almost defends Shepard from Tali's accusations!

By this, I assume you are referring Shepard during Tali's loyalty mission when you say "Cerberus crew"? If so, it is questionable at the very best. Shepard is recognized as the hero responsible for bringing down Saren and the Geth. Regardless of his Cerberus affiliation, it's clear why he was allowed to accompany Tali. In fact, Shepard's ship registering as Cerberus causes issues when they first attempt to dock. You are also neglecting the potential scenario in which Tali is exiled, where she is not actually given 'permission' to serve on a Cerberus vessel. And the option you refer to with the Quarian doctor is only availabe if Shepard refuses to give Veetor over to Cerberus.

Given this, Cerberus' efforts  to steal a Quarian ship, and Veetor's condition, I hardly would call Cerberus-Quarian relations 'improved'. If anything, this only reflects well on Shepard, whose official involvement with Cerberus is not fully clear. This is about Cerberus serving as an inept organization. They are certainly effective in military, research, etc. However, they seem to have a pitiful understanding of politics.

And don't be silly, who else can provide better medical treatment for a Quarian, than the Quarians? So Veetor was returned to the Migrant Fleet as soon as Cerberus was done with him.

"Malnutrition, exhaustion, dehydration," are all issues which Veetor suffered from upon returning to the Quarians.
I would think the organization which was capable of bringing a dead man back to life might have some other medical capabilities. It sounds like they got what they wanted, then threw his body back to the Quarians.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 24 mai 2010 - 08:34 .

[Nightwriter]

Miranda and TIM are pretty cool and professional characters, it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't completely freak out out over the attack at Lazarus Station.

As for a field test, they could've conducted one of those at any time and in much less expensive circumstances. Their whole station was torn to shreds because of this "test" and Shepard himself was jeopardized. I leave it up to Cerberus to grasp the concept of needless expenditure. 

[BaladasDemnevanni]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

The words you quoted were only in response to your assertion that Cerberus caused Veetor's condition, nothing more. I was stressing that of all the things you can do (not did do), causing something that already existed is not one of them. [/quote]

Let's imagine this as a pain scale then ranging from 1-10, 10 being the highest level of pain possible. Let's say Veetor is suffering from his injury. His pain level is about a 7. Cerberus, through the use of drugs, increases his pain level to 9. They did not 'cause' his injury per se, they did however cause it to become worse.

[quote]
1. The fact that you're on this forum in the first place means that you have the time and you or someone you know spent half a hundred dollars or so on a luxury good rather than spent that money to help people. And that's assuming you're a total school worm with no time for friends, dating, drinking, parties, or video games.

2. You have the time to be here, and you have the money to be in college. Making a small donation that could save lives is not beyond your means or time.

3. If you call an ambulance, your only immediate satisfaction is to see the vehicle drive up and drive away. You don't necessarily know where it's going. You won't know if the man survives to the hospital, if he recovers, if he lives a happy life. Your only gratification is to see a vehicle move. Besides the pettiness of someone who only acts for immediate gratification, that's little different from a thank-you email with pictures of the child you 'adopted' on the charity site. [/quote]

My, my! Such wonderful attempts at evaluating me you have made. Let us dispel some of these notions, I say!

1. Very interesting. I will entertain your idea briefly. However much time it would take for me to make that phone call to save the dying man, I will now devote to charity. Which is to say about five minutes of my lifetime. As you can see, I still have ample time to converse with you.

2. Do I have the money to be in college? I should think not. At least, not yet. Have you ever taken a college loan, I wonder? I regret to inform you that I do not have such resources as you might think. Again, effort is a key factor you continue to ignore in both examples. How much money, for example, are you proposing that I donate? $5? Fair enough, I will donate $5 a month to charity from this point on, for all its good. I'm inclined to believe that my phone call has performed a greater good than that contribution.

3. Again, this is wrong. I know two things. 1) If the man is left bleeding in the middle of the street, then it is guaranteed that he will die. 2) If I call an ambulance (which I remind you, minimal effort), then there is now the possibility that he survives his injury. It's also likely that if he's dying that you will be notified by 'someone' that he's survived. There's nothing 'feel good' about it (although that can be it's own reward).

This is completely different to the notion that I have changed the world through 'charity' which only makes a difference through a much larger effort or through contributions made by others which I can't necessarily quantify. My phone call is minimal effort and does not rely on the efforts by other people.

[quote]


[quote]
1. Your own definition impresses the necessity of positive action. The UN recognizes that it is an action, not a lack of action.

2. Confining someone is not an act of torture, or else you would have to admit that all unwilling incarceration is torture. (Some have argued this.). Once on the shuttle, Veetor couldn't even go anywhere. Druging someone is also not an act of torture, unless those drugs cause pain.
[/quote]

1. Applying drugs would be a positive action. Again, confinement is still a positive action. If Cerberus throws him into a locked room, they have taken a positive action. If they are aware that he is suffering physical pain (and is partially insane) and choose to purposely question him because of his state, then they have tortured him. We've seen the way in which Cerberus conducts itself. This is not outside their spectrum.

2. If only they simply confined him. Unfortunately they also chose to apply 'brute force' drugs which increased his pain and this was all done for the purposes of obtaining information. How does this not meet the definition of torture, I ask you? Your argument seems to hinge on the fact that they did not use conventional torture devices. If they exploited/caused his pain in order to obtain information, then he has been tortured.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 24 mai 2010 - 08:59 .

[Nightwriter]

I think Cerberus's political failing is that they don't grasp the importance of politics or the value of intergalactic alliances or friendships.

No, they've never tried to be friendly - TIM tells us there's little point in playing nice when everyone already sees you as a threat. But that's the way they've played their cards, and they've brought that on themselves. Now we'll never know if they could be diplomatic and not just manipulative.

[Zulu_DFA]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

 don't have to watch that video, I've seen it in my own game. And yes, Veetor is partly sane, because he recognizes the name of Shepard, and remebers Shepard's actions correctly. This shows that his mental capacity is not entirely deteriorated. He misakes Shepard for a husk at first, but that's because Shepard is an alien to him! In any case, Veetor's condition is not much worse, than it was when Shepard found him on Freedom's Progress.

Shepard is an alien to him? Had Veetor not encountered other humans on Freedom's Progress where he was found? I would think he could instantly recognize the difference between a husk and a human. Veetor recalls Shepard's name and that he gave him to Cerberus. Following this, he is reduced to insane babbling.

Shepard is not a Quarian = alien for any Quarian. Veeror may have been in the middle of a daydream and mistook him for a husk (which could also have been a childish figure of speech). But when he was told it's Shepard, not only he recollected Shepard's actions but also what happend to him at Cerberus. And it was not insane babbling, it was rather hasty account of his traumatizing experience, inculding "needles for the wrong answers" - that's a cause-and-effect recognition. So his mental capacity is quite intact, although I doubt he ever was the brightest Quarian.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
And the "diplomatic relations" seem to be quite improved, if you take the Ascention backstory into account. Tali is allowed to serve aboard a Cerberus ship, and then Cerberus crew is allowed to step on board of the capital Quarian ship. And the Quarian doctor attending to Veetor almost defends Shepard from Tali's accusations!

By this, I assume you are referring Shepard during Tali's loyalty mission when you say "Cerberus crew"? If so, it is questionable at the very best. Shepard is recognized as the hero responsible for bringing down Saren and the Geth. Regardless of his Cerberus affiliation, it's clear why he was allowed to accompany Tali. In fact, Shepard's ship registering as Cerberus causes issues when they first attempt to dock. You are also neglecting the potential scenario in which Tali is exiled, where she is not actually given 'permission' to serve on a Cerberus vessel. And the option you refer to with the Quarian doctor is only availabe if Shepard refuses to give Veetor over to Cerberus.

You get an e-mail from Tali's father (!), confirming her transfer (!) to the Normandy before she tells you about the trial. Maybe the Quarians were aiming for the same end as TIM had been, when he put Tali on your list. I mean espionage.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Given this, Cerberus' efforts  to steal a Quarian ship, and Veetor's condition, I hardly would call Cerberus-Quarian relations 'improved'.If anything, this only reflects well on Shepard, whose official involvement with Cerberus is not fully clear.

And what about Miranda? She is with Shepard? Or with Tali?

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
This is about Cerberus serving as an inept organization. They are certainly effective in military, research, etc. However, they seem to have a pitiful understanding of politics.

Humanity got Udina for diplomacy. You don't like him either, I suppose... But Cerberus is not about diplomacy. It's about intelligence, dangerous research and black ops. That's their job description, not diplomacy. You can't seriously blame them for being poor at diplomacy.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
And don't be silly, who else can provide better medical treatment for a Quarian, than the Quarians? So Veetor was returned to the Migrant Fleet as soon as Cerberus was done with him.

"Malnutrition, exhaustion, dehydration," are all issues which Veetor suffered from upon returning to the Quarians.
I would think the organization which was capable of bringing a dead man back to life might have some other medical capabilities. It sounds like they got what they wanted, then threw his body back to the Quarians.

Obviously, Veetor's well-being was not a priority. Still, as I said, he fared better than Tyrone Rawlings or the ExoGeni envoy to the Blue Suns.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 mai 2010 - 09:26 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

They're a black ops organization; politicking isn't something they're concerned about. The Navy SEALS aren't known for their diplomatic successes either.

Cerberus has many branches and divisions. Military, scientific, political...

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

They're a black ops organization; politicking isn't something they're concerned about. The Navy SEALS aren't known for their diplomatic successes either.

Cerberus has many branches and divisions. Military, scientific, political...

Like the one that appointed Charles Saracino for the Terra Firma chairmancy...



And, that's exaclty why the Alliance is distancing themselves from Cerberus, like it never happened.

For example, I don't expect Udina (being the Human dominance supporter he is) to ever stroke my head for my work for Cerberus, even privately. I did an awful lot for them, and they'll probably try me for it. Because that's politics.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 mai 2010 - 09:16 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Shandepared wrote...

Why do you say that? Cerberus hasn't tried to have improved relations with the quarians. If their goal was making allies they could probably do it, but so far they've had no interest in that. I don't know how you could judge their political savvy based on that. 

You have just made my point for me, thank you. They have not tried to improve their relations, at all. Cerberus is an organization whose aim is to advance humanity, no matter the tools, no matter the costs. This means they should understand the values of all the tools at their disposal, including diplomacy.

Instead, they are largely viewed as a terrorist threat by the world at large and often dismissed as such. Politics is not a world in which one is able to ignore everything around you. It is not always easy to 'get by' on your own. There is plenty to be gained from alliances which Illusive Man does not seem to understand. Instead, he needlessly antagonizes other species, cementing their efforts against him.

What else should they have done? All that was promised was that they would not torture him; which they didn't.

Actually, I believe Jacob stated that they would not hurt Veetor and that he would be returned 'unharmed'. When he's returned to the Quarians he is found to suffer from malnutrition, dehydration, exhaustion, and is almost entirely insane. Not only did Cerberus not attempt to fix him, but this indicates that they actually interrogated him while he was in this condition. As a Quarian, I personally wouldn't be too happy to find one of my kinsman treated like this. So no, I would not say that Cerberus handled this matter effectively, especially given their resources.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 24 mai 2010 - 09:12 .

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Cerberus has many branches and divisions. Military, scientific, political...

Like the one that appointed Charles Saracino for the Terra Firma chairmancy...

That worked out well. *snort, giggle*

And again, they're not playing at diplomacy with this. Terra Firma is a blatantly racist anti-alien group, and what Cerberus is being criticized for right now is their failure to understand the value of alien diplomacy.

[Zulu_DFA]

Humanity got Udina for diplomacy. You don't like him either, I suppose... But Cerberus is not about diplomacy. It's about intelligence, dangerous research and black ops. That's their job description, not diplomacy. You can't seriously blame them for being poor at diplomacy.



And, that's exaclty why the Alliance is distancing themselves from Cerberus, like it never happened.



For example, I don't expect Udina (being the Human dominance supporter he is) to ever stroke my head for my honest work for Cerberus, even privately. I did an awful lot for them (I mean Alliance honchos), and they'll probably try me for it. Because that's politics.

[Mangalores]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I think Cerberus's political failing is that they don't grasp the importance of politics or the value of intergalactic alliances or friendships.

They're a black ops organization; politicking isn't something they're concerned about. The Navy SEALS aren't known for their diplomatic successes either.

Actual covert operations are conducted by secret services using certain special forces branches. Local politics wether there a drug wars, regime change, synchronisation with allied efforts, whatever are among the highest priorities in this kind of field, At least the standard mission profile for Seals is the preparation of amphibious operations. I would say the above is more the area of Green Berets, SAS and similar special forces, I don't know if Navy SEALs or the like would be in such asymmetric warfare operations at all. Politics was the small thing to convince alot of Afgani tribes to switch sides so NATO didn't need major ground troops in that operation.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Humanity got Udina for diplomacy. You don't like him either, I suppose... But Cerberus is not about diplomacy. It's about intelligence, dangerous research and black ops. That's their job description, not diplomacy. You can't seriously blame them for being poor at diplomacy.

And, that's exaclty why the Alliance is distancing themselves from Cerberus, like it never happened.

For example, I don't expect Udina (being the Human dominance supporter he is) to ever stroke my head for my honest work for Cerberus, even privately. I did an awful lot for them (I mean Alliance honchos), and they'll probably try me for it. Because that's politics.

Well, as for them solely being a black ops organization, I think you should consult Baladas's post above, because it has some very good points.

Cerberus's goal is human advancement. Because of this, like Baladas said, they should understand the value of all the tools in the toolbox, including diplomacy, and be willing to use them. Humanity stands to gain from alien diplomacy. I think Cerberus lets its xenophobia hinder its cause in this regard.

Also, Miranda explains that Cerberus's operations are broader than just black ops and military projects and the like. That's not all they are.

[DPSSOC]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Why do you say that? Cerberus hasn't tried to have improved relations with the quarians. If their goal was making allies they could probably do it, but so far they've had no interest in that. I don't know how you could judge their political savvy based on that. 

You have just made my point for me, thank you. They have not tried to improve their relations, at all. Cerberus is an organization whose aim is to advance humanity, no matter the tools, no matter the costs. This means they should understand the values of all the tools at their disposal, including diplomacy.

Perhaps because diplomacy has proven to have no value in advancing humanity.  Diplomacy didn't get humanity an embassy, diplomacy didn't get a human made a Spectre, diplomacy didn't get humans on the council.  Threat of war got the first, combat ability got the second, and killing Sovereign got the third.  Diplomacy requires compromise, the ratio of give vs take being greater the lower you are on the ladder.  For example when humans joined the Citadel races they gained the benefit of not war, but in exchange had to give up their ability to defend themselves in the event there ever was one (Treaty of Farixen).

Diplomacy is a valuable tool, but not for advancing your species agenda when you're the new kids on the block.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Instead, they are largely viewed as a terrorist threat by the world at large and often dismissed as such. Politics is not a world in which one is able to ignore everything around you. It is not always easy to 'get by' on your own. There is plenty to be gained from alliances which Illusive Man does not seem to understand. Instead, he needlessly antagonizes other species, cementing their efforts against him.

Now what I propose supposes that there is still a connection between Cerberus and the Alliance, with that in mind here goes.  It boils down to the carrot and the stick.  Cerberus is the stick, openly hostile, dangerous, and ruthless.  The Alliance on the other hand is more reasonable, willing to compromise, etc.  A rogue element like Cerberus makes the Alliance all the more appealing and it forces the aliens to take a vested interest in the continued survival and cooperation of the Alliance.  So in order to keep the Alliance happy the Council makes more and more concessions to them.  Just a thought on why they might actually want to be viewed as hostile.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Humanity got Udina for diplomacy. You don't like him either, I suppose... But Cerberus is not about diplomacy. It's about intelligence, dangerous research and black ops. That's their job description, not diplomacy. You can't seriously blame them for being poor at diplomacy.

And, that's exaclty why the Alliance is distancing themselves from Cerberus, like it never happened.

For example, I don't expect Udina (being the Human dominance supporter he is) to ever stroke my head for my honest work for Cerberus, even privately. I did an awful lot for them (I mean Alliance honchos), and they'll probably try me for it. Because that's politics.

Well, as for them solely being a black ops organization, I think you should consult Baladas's post above, because it has some very good points.

Cerberus's goal is human advancement. Because of this, like Baladas said, they should understand the value of all the tools in the toolbox, including diplomacy, and be willing to use them. Humanity stands to gain from alien diplomacy. I think Cerberus lets its xenophobia hinder its cause in this regard.

Also, Miranda explains that Cerberus's operations are broader than just black ops and military projects and the like. That's not all they are.

Well, I suppose TIM's personality gets in the way to some degree here. Being the man of action (mind you, I think Zaeed is TIM's long lost twin brother, it's genes!) he despises compromise (in all meanings of this word).

But again, Cerberus is not an entirely self-styled and self-sufficient organization. It's a vastly autonomous task-oriented intelligence agency. Interspecies diplomacy is outside their scope.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 mai 2010 - 10:15 .