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[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Cerberus has many branches and divisions. Military, scientific, political...

Yes, that is true, but their politics branch has never had any dealings with the Flotilla. So on what grounds do you judge that they aren't effective? All we know of their involvment is Charles Saracino. Other than assassinations how much involvement does Cerberus have? You're assuming a lot.

I'm confused, why do you mention the flotilla?

Anyway it's not Cerberus's abilities that I'm criticizing - I'm sure once they put their mind to it they can be very manipulative and effective - but, like I said, rather their inability to grasp the value of diplomacy and therefore to pursue it.

Now, why is diplomacy important? Because it can benefit humanity. When you think about it we've gotten damn far in the few decades - decades - since first contact. First human Spectre, a seat on the Council. If we'd gotten nothing but screwed over by politics in that time I'd say it didn't mean anything, as we've only been at it for a handful of years. I mean, this is politics.

Even if you don't think humanity can benefit from diplomacy, you have to admit that the other races of the galaxy pose a significant threat to us and making people angry is not smart. Playing nice, if only for the sake of avoiding hostilities, is. It's bad business to burn bridges and ****** people off.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Their very nature means they are seen as criminals; so how can they possibly foster relations with other races? No government would ever want to be linked to them in any way. If you want inter-species diplomacy then you have the Systems Alliance; not Cerberus. In any case they DO recognize diplomacy. After all, they made friends with Shepard despite the fact that he'd been a thorn in their side previously. They also sent him around to recruit various aliens to their cause of stopping the Collectors; again showcasing their ability to make friends. There was also Golo.

I'll repeat this again in the hope that you understand it: when Cerberus broke away from the Alliance they became a criminal organization. As they are illegal no legitimate government will ever want to be linked to them. As such Cerberus is incapable of fostering interspecies relations in any meaningful way. Secondly, Cerberus goal often means acting against rival powers (species) in order to secure a human advantage. This naturally means that hostilities are guaranteed.

When you want diplomacy you refer to the Systems Alliance, not to Cerberus. When you want espionage and wet-work you refer to Cerberus.

There's no statement or mandate that says the Alliance and Cerberus are two arms of the same goal or two branches of the same system. Cerberus works separately from the Alliance and "helps" humanity completely on its own, independently. Usually criminally. It's not like one covers politics and the other covers black ops. They're both each their own group and should be complete in themselves.

As for "they're already criminals, whadaya gonna do?", I think that's kind of circular logic there. They can't play nice because they're already criminals, and they're already criminals because they won't play nice? Now I don't know if Cerberus was a pre-existing group that was hired by the Alliance or if the Alliance created them and then they split or what - what I do know is the Illusive Man is Cerberus, and he predates the group itself.

It was the Illusive Man who decided long ago how he'd run his operations, and he apparently decided he'd run them nasty. Everything that followed is a result of that. Because of his beliefs and his choices opportunities for beneficial diplomacy were nixed. He thinks that humanity should be on its own, and that is what's not politically savvy.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 24 mai 2010 - 10:38 .

[Nightwriter]

I've noticed this pattern. You'll be arguing with someone and trying to make these points, and then in their response they'll just pluck a sentence or two out of your whole post they feel like responding to and leave the rest out.

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

He thinks that humanity should be on its own, and that is what's not politically savvy.

No, he thinks humanity should be capable of standing on its own; a reasonable desire.

And when Humanity will be able to stand on its own, it will have no reason not to do so. That's not what Nightwriter wants. Not the desire to stand on its own is unsavvy, but the actual standing. And to prevent the actual Humanity's standing on its own wen must curtail the desire to be able to do so. Because without the desire, Humanity won't be able to stand on its own, and will not stand on its own, and the political savviness will prevail. That's classic politics, in 4 lines.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

I do that as well to save space. There's no reason in leaving the entire post in the quote.

Oh. That makes sense then.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And when Humanity will be able to stand on its own, it will have no
reason not to do so. That's not what Nightwriter wants. Not the desire
to stand on its own is unsavvy, but the actual standing. And to prevent
the actual Humanity's standing on its own wen must curtail the desire to
be able to do so. Because without the desire, Humanity won't be able to
stand on its own, and will not stand on its own, and the political
savviness will prevail. That's classic politics, in 4 lines.

Nah. I believe in intergalactic peace and cooperation, yeah. A galactic community. Doesn't mean I don't want us to have a set. Doesn't mean I don't want humanity to have power. I do.

But like Shepard said, I just think standing up for ourselves doesn't mean standing alone. This clashes with Cerberus's views. And it seems like if TIM had his way, not only would humanity be dominant but all the other races would be oppressed or enslaved to us or something. That's not cool with me.

[Dean_the_Young]

Edit: Aw, whatever. This will be my last post on the subject. If your interpretation of torture differs from the UN's and my active action definition, I can't help that. I've even deleted this post so it doesn't seem like I'm insisting on getting the last word.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 mai 2010 - 11:22 .

[Nightwriter]

Mountain post scares me.

What are you guys arguing about anyway? Veetor? Charity? Nightwriter is confused.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

it seems like if TIM had his way, not only would humanity be dominant but all the other races would be oppressed or enslaved to us or something. That's not cool with me.

This makes TIM look like an adherent of the authoritative leadership. There is a Grand Canyon between this and "inept". Same goes to "not being liked by Nightwriter". [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

I do that as well to save space. There's no reason in leaving the entire post in the quote.

Oh. That makes sense then.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And when Humanity will be able to stand on its own, it will have no
reason not to do so. That's not what Nightwriter wants. Not the desire
to stand on its own is unsavvy, but the actual standing. And to prevent
the actual Humanity's standing on its own wen must curtail the desire to
be able to do so. Because without the desire, Humanity won't be able to
stand on its own, and will not stand on its own, and the political
savviness will prevail. That's classic politics, in 4 lines.

Nah. I believe in intergalactic peace and cooperation, yeah. A galactic community. Doesn't mean I don't want us to have a set. Doesn't mean I don't want humanity to have power. I do.

But like Shepard said, I just think standing up for ourselves doesn't mean standing alone. This clashes with Cerberus's views. And it seems like if TIM had his way, not only would humanity be dominant but all the other races would be oppressed or enslaved to us or something. That's not cool with me.

When has TIM ever set out to enslave the other races? Or oppress them?

TIM wants humanity to be the secure superpower of the galaxy. Look at the US post-Cold War: it was undisputably the strongest and dominant power, but did it oppress or enslave the rest of the world?

The strongest powers were the US's allies. It's outright foes were among the weakest. Even now, the most serious rival to the US (China) isn't an ideological enemy by any means, or even a credible threat to the US mainland. They don't even maintain the nuclear capacity to wipe the US out, only enough for a limited response.

[Nightwriter]

Hey, Dean, where'd the mountain post go?

And grr, Zulu! I never said their skills were in question. Only their beliefs. TIM is very manipulative, he'd probably be well suited to politics.

By ineptitude all I meant was failure to recognize that making friends is beneficial to humanity. Does that make sense?

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Hey, Dean, where'd the mountain post go?

I heard it scared some people. Plus I was intending to end the debate soon anyway, but I have a pet peave against people trying to end a thread with the last word, and in this case that person would have been me.

And grr, Zulu! I never said their skills were in question. Only their beliefs. TIM is very manipulative, he'd probably be well suited to politics.

By ineptitude all I meant was failure to recognize that making friends is beneficial to humanity. Does that make sense?

(I'm pretty sure) Zulu was just teasing you over the common theme of this thread.

Cerberus not making friends doesn't mean that humanity can't. As a rogue black ops, Cerberus doesn't stand as humanity's public face. It can't even make 'real' friends in the same sense that countries, let alone people, do: it might find it has to do something that a friend doesn't want to, and it needs to reserve the right to act.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 mai 2010 - 11:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Sure. Their answer would rather depict their objectivity of the post-Cold War world...

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Hey, Dean, where'd the mountain post go?

I heard it scared some people. Plus I was intending to end the debate soon anyway, but I have a pet peave against people trying to end a thread with the last word, and in this case that person would have been me.

Oh, poopie. How rude of some people to make such a comment. I was reading that, I wanted to figure out if it was a pro-torture/anti-torture thing. I'll just make a new mountain post!

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And grr, Zulu! I never said their skills were in question. Only their beliefs. TIM is very manipulative, he'd probably be well suited to politics.

By ineptitude all I meant was failure to recognize that making friends is beneficial to humanity. Does that make sense?

(I'm pretty sure) Zulu was just teasing you over the common theme of this thread.

I know. It wasn't a serious "grr".

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus not making friends doesn't mean that humanity can't. As a rogue black ops, Cerberus doesn't stand as humanity's public face. It can't even make 'real' friends in the same sense that countries, let alone people, do: it might find it has to do something that a friend doesn't want to, and it needs to reserve the right to act.

Again... I'm talking about Cerberus's beliefs.

I realize they've pigeonholed themselves into a terrorist role. Whatever it takes to advance humanity. But ever since the Illusive Man first came to be, as nothing more than an extranet ghost, he spoke out aggressively against aliens. And we all know the line between pro-human and anti-alien can be a blurry one. My problem isn't that he can't make friends with aliens, but that he doesn't seem to want to.

If he just wanted to secure humanity's rights and safety I would support that. Desiring power for humanity is no evil thing, even though what he's willing to do to attain that power is disturbing. We should fight for our independence.

But my problem with the Illusive Man is: does he know when to stop?

His comment, "We could use this technology, against the Reapers and beyond!" tells me he doesn't.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 25 mai 2010 - 12:20 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

By ineptitude all I meant was failure to recognize that making friends is beneficial to humanity. Does that make sense?

Not much, actually. You don't want to make friends with just anybody you see around you. Especially in politics.
Politics is constant negotiation, yes, but application of violent force where appropriate is just as good for communiction and negotiation as the peaceful means.

Nightwriter wrote...
And grr, Zulu! I never said their skills were in question. Only their
beliefs. TIM is very manipulative, he'd probably be well suited to
politics.

Well, I'm sorry I bothered then. I never try to convert anybody to the Cerberus faith. Just defend the facts. Just the facts.

[Some Dude]

Getting in an arguement with Zulu over Cerberus is always a heavy risk...

[Nightwriter]

I could not resist...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

By ineptitude all I meant was failure to recognize that making friends is beneficial to humanity. Does that make sense?

Not much, actually. You don't want to make friends with just anybody you see around you. Especially in politics.
Politics is constant negotiation, yes, but application of violent force where appropriate is just as good for communiction and negotiation as the peaceful means.

I suppose this is the part where I am to be told that violence is "practical". And ah! Violence where appropriate. The problem with Cerberus is that it is left up to one man to decide what is appropriate, and his scales have shown themselves to be a bit off.

I don't deny some situations require violence and swift action. Certainly the Reaper situation does. But violence is not to be confused with effectiveness in the long run. Cerberus has proven that violence, in fact, can be very ineffective. You don't have to be criminal or brutal to achieve a goal.

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

 However, they seem to have a pitiful understanding of politics.

Why do you say that? Cerberus hasn't tried to have improved relations with the quarians. If their goal was making allies they could probably do it, but so far they've had no interest in that. I don't know how you could judge their political savvy based on that. 
 

They could have made allies before if they wanted, but with Cerb's rep I highly doubt it would work now.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

I suppose this is the part where I am to be told that violence is "practical". And ah! Violence where appropriate.

By "appropriate" I mean "expedient", "cost effective". Nothing more.

There's nothing personal or racist in Cerberus-made violence. Just business.

[Arijharn]

While I'm pro-Cerberus really and pro-TIM (I see him as being the most qualified to run the organisation) that doesn't preclude Cerberus from being potentially nicer to other species if only for olive branches. Even if one was to argue that Cerberus doesn't need to make nice because it's a black ops organisation (and therefore essentially invisible to the public face), then that argument would be eventually rendered moot because some other organisations do know about their existence (for example, mercenary operatives above the rank of captain, the Quarians, etc).



I'm not necessarily making a deciding judgement for or against the Veetor 'incident' for example, but it would probably be in Cerberus' best interests in the long run if they exercised restraint in dealing with the Quarians (for at least the time being) in light of their recent past.



As an aside, there's other methods of extracting useful intelligence without necessarily causing harm... for example barbituates and suggestive responses (simple psychology, asking seemingly innocuous questions and from the results draw startingly indepth knowledge about given circumstances, admittedly that might not necessarily get Cerberus access codes to the Flotilla, but it would be potentially useful information regardless)

[Nightwriter]

Cerberus's grizzly methods are supposed to be justifiable because they get the job done better and quicker than anyone else. This is supposed to be the great redeeming factor of their actions: they get results.

However I found that the reputation Cerberus had earned for itself because of those actions was a hindrance to my mission, not a help, and therefore it was a hindrance to the welfare of humanity. Everywhere I went I got stonewalled or ran into problems because someone found out I was working with Cerberus.

It's stuff like this that makes me say politics and image are important. Because if you act like a terrorist all the time and never make nice, it's going to get in the way of your mission eventually.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 25 mai 2010 - 01:49 .