1013 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Nightwriter wrote...
Everywhere I went I got stonewalled or ran into problems because someone found out I was working with Cerberus.

All of which can be easily dealt with by liberal application of gun.

Nightwriter wrote...
It's stuff like this that makes me say politics and image are important. Because if you act like a terrorist all the time and never make nice, it's going to get in the way of your mission eventually.

Yes politics and image are important but working on those is hard and can end up bearing no fruit at all.  Killing everyone in your way is quicker and always gets results (though admittedly not always positive).

[Dean_the_Young]

Blowback is a constant in politics and progress, not an abnormality that would be avoided if you do everything nicely. If you avoid an action, all you avoid is the blowback from that action. You expose yourself to different blowback instead.

Not trying to disagree with your entire point, Night, but just making a clarification.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 25 mai 2010 - 02:20 .

[Nightwriter]

DPSSOC wrote...

All of which can be easily dealt with by liberal application of gun.

Would a gun have helped you in the situations in which you were hindered by Cerberus's reputation?

Would a gun have helped you when Anderson refused to tell you about Ashley because of your affiliations? Would a gun have helped you when the Council said they would not get involved because of Cerberus? Would a gun have helped you on Horizon when Ash/Kaidan turned away from you? In none of these cases, which were the most annoying for me, were we allowed to use a gun to solve the problem. We were stuck.

Yes politics and image are important but working on those is hard and can end up bearing no fruit at all.  Killing everyone in your way is quicker and always gets results (though admittedly not always positive).

Bearing no fruit at all? What, you mean like husk experimentation? Rachni experimentation? Thorian creeper experimentation? Cerberus is well-versed in activities that bear no fruit at all. This is old territory.

Blowback is a constant in politics and progress, not an abnormality that
would be avoided if you do everything nicely. If you avoid an action,
all you avoid is the blowback from that action. You expose yourself to
different blowback instead.

Not trying to disagree with your
entire point, Night, but just making a clarification.

Not saying politics or diplomacy are a magic wand. It's quite imperfect.

However one may find that not acting like a complete and total terrorist all the time will make people considerably less likely to shoot you on sight and declare you their sworn galactic enemy. 

Modifié par Nightwriter, 25 mai 2010 - 02:38 .

[DPSSOC]

Nightwriter wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

All of which can be easily dealt with by liberal application of gun.

Would a gun have helped you in the situations in which you were hindered by Cerberus's reputation?

Would a gun have helped you when Anderson refused to tell you about Ashley because of your affiliations? Would a gun have helped you when the Council said they would not get involved because of Cerberus? Would a gun have helped you on Horizon when Ash/Kaidan turned away from you? In none of these cases, which were the most annoying for me, were we allowed to use a gun to solve the problem. We were stuck.

Well I can think of at least one way a gun would have helped all of those scenarios, those probably wouldn't have been any better for you though.

Nightwriter wrote...

Yes politics and image are important but working on those is hard and can end up bearing no fruit at all.  Killing everyone in your way is quicker and always gets results (though admittedly not always positive).

Bearing no fruit at all? What, you mean like husk experimentation? Rachni experimentation? Thorian creeper experimentation? Cerberus is well-versed in activities that bear no fruit at all. This is old territory.

To be fair we don't know that those were fruitless, it's probable that they were (I'm of the opinion that they were) but who knows what Cerberus got out of them other than the expressly stated goal which was not reached.  However I'd actually qualify those as negative results, which is still better than no results.  By bearing no fruit I meant you invest time, money, and effort into something and end up no better or worse off than before.  This is, in my mind, worse than achieving a negative result as you can learn from a negative result.  For example if I'm building a birdhouse and seriously screw up I'm better off than I was despite having failed because I can review my process and see where I went wrong.

All you can learn from negotiations coming to a stand still and eventually dying because neither side is willing to bend enough to make the other happy is submission and submission is not conducive to advancement.

We learn as much from our failures as we do our successes, sometimes more.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 25 mai 2010 - 02:51 .

[Nightwriter]

DPSSOC wrote...

Well I can think of at least one way a gun would have helped all of those scenarios, those probably wouldn't have been any better for you though.

Lol. But I wasn't actually allowed to use my gun in those situations, is my point! And I so wanted to.

Trust me, I felt like the next person who ragged on me about Cerberus again was going to get a bullet in the head. I was just going to snap. And yet I couldn't use my gun! You see how that can be frustrating.

DPSSOC wrote...

To be fair we don't know that those were fruitless, it's probable that they were (I'm of the opinion that they were) but who knows what Cerberus got out of them other than the expressly stated goal which was not reached.  However I'd actually qualify those as negative results, which is still better than no results.  By bearing no fruit I meant you invest time, money, and effort into something and end up no better or worse off than before.  This is, in my mind, worse than achieving a negative result as you can learn from a negative result.  For example if I'm building a birdhouse and seriously screw up I'm better off than I was despite having failed because I can review my process and see where I went wrong.

All you can learn from negotiations coming to a stand still and eventually dying because neither side is willing to bend enough to make the other happy is submission and submission is not conducive to advancement.

We learn as much from our failures as we do our successes, sometimes more.

Well... I'd rather break even than go into negative numbers, myself, so I'm not sure I agree. Also your birdhouse failure didn't cost anyone their lives, I might point out. The value of negative results vs no results is a bit different when negative results mean the deaths of human lives. The cost is much greater and much more dire.

And I'm not saying Cerberus should tie themselves up in diplomacy with a ton of alien governments - they could just start working with more aliens. They don't need to be part of their race's government, the aliens could be covert operatives, renegades like Cerberus representing factions within their own species. The spirit of cooperation is sort of what I'm going for here. I think Cerberus should be nicer to people, not necessarily political or diplomatic bodies.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 25 mai 2010 - 03:05 .

[Nightwriter]

I accomplished those things, not Cerberus.

And the Council would not help me because I was with Cerberus. Anderson would not speak to me about Ash/Kaidan because I was with Cerberus. And I don't know about you, but I really hate the animosity and distrust that followed me wherever I went just because I was with Cerberus.

As for Ash/Kaidan, yes, it matters emotionally that they weren't there and wouldn't help. It matters realistically, as well, considering Cerberus was effectively cutting me off from my allies.

[Sajuro]

Nightwriter wrote...

As for Ash/Kaidan, yes, it matters emotionally that they weren't there and wouldn't help. It matters realistically, as well, considering Cerberus was effectively cutting me off from my allies.

It makes sense for Cerberus to cut you off from your old allies, that would make Shepard more dependent on TIM.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

I accomplished those things, not Cerberus.

Cerberus 1) brought you back from the dead, 2) gave you the ship and supplies, 3) staffed with the crew and instructed on further team building, 4) provided with critical information for your mission. To accomplish things for them.

So, everything you have accopmlished in ME2 is Cerberus accomplishment. They take the full credit for it. As TIM said, you are a valuable asset, regardless of your views on Cerberus.

Even if you destroyed the Collector Base, it's TIM's own fault. He should have known better, and implanted the "killer switch" as Miranda offered...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 mai 2010 - 09:43 .

[Massadonious1]

Cerberus is about as proud of Shepard as a nucular power plant is proud of inatimate carbon rods for doing their job.

[squigian]

Cerberus is responsible for giving Shepard the means to do what the Commander does. Thus they are indirectly responsible for the consequences. It's the same amount of responsibility that a commander would have for a junior officer: an objective is given and results follow, the degree of responsibility that each party bears for those results depending upon the circumstances.

[DPSSOC]

Nightwriter wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Well I can think of at least one way a gun would have helped all of those scenarios, those probably wouldn't have been any better for you though.

Lol. But I wasn't actually allowed to use my gun in those situations, is my point! And I so wanted to.

Trust me, I felt like the next person who ragged on me about Cerberus again was going to get a bullet in the head. I was just going to snap. And yet I couldn't use my gun! You see how that can be frustrating.

True, damn limitations of the medium.

Nightwriter wrote...
Well... I'd rather break even than go into negative numbers, myself, so I'm not sure I agree.

 
Fair enough

Nightwriter wrote...
Also your birdhouse failure didn't cost anyone their lives, I might point out.

 
Oh how I wish that were true.

Nightwriter wrote...
I think Cerberus should be nicer to people, not necessarily political or diplomatic bodies.

Yes but the history of the ME universe shows that being nice has never gotten humanity anything.  Everything we have that's worth anything we got by being homocidal space monkies.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Investment in Shepard was an unquestionable success.



But they failed in practically every project that wasn't directly focused on Shepard.



So I am glad I didn't give them the big bad space station. Unless Shepard would run it personally, I can see all the staff getting indoctrinated and starting to build a reaper out of prothean dung or something.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Shandepared wrote...
They have more successes than they do failures and in any realistic medium you'd have shot yourself in the foot by destroying that base.

Come on, most of those "successes" included having their team/facility wiped out and losing control of the "results" which tend to run amok with shepard having to shoot them or break out of prison. Under their care the prothean base would probably come to life and eat Omega or something, with them concluding that yes, it is dangerous, test successful. Then they would provide Shepard with useful intel ("uh, we lost contact with the base") and provide him with resources (ammunition) to mop up their mistakes.

[primero holodon]

It would also seem that all the other cerberus operations that shepard dosen't meddle in end up going horribly wrong and getting the whole cerbers reserch team killed. they must have an awsome human recources department to maintain enough employees to run the organization

[Mouton_Alpha]

Shandepared wrote...
Regardless, blowing up the base is an incredibly stupid decision. It's also worth noting that Shepard doesn't do it because of any distrust of TIM: rather it is merely on moral grounds. Try and justify it anyway you like; it was a foolish thing to do.

This, I do not disagree with. It was a treasure trove of technology and I would have left it intact, had I other options than Cerberus. An aliens+Anderson council perhaps? They still might mess up but at least they could station a few dreadnoughts nearby ready to blast it into pieces if something goes wrong. Or perhaps the Salarians - they seem to be truly brilliant scientists and STG got some Reaper experience on Virmire. Or even the Asari. Just not "our base is overrun by enemies" Cerberus.

And yeah, i dislike when Paragon Shepard goes all "it just feels wrong". I want better justification.

[Zulu_DFA]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
Regardless, blowing up the base is an incredibly stupid decision. It's also worth noting that Shepard doesn't do it because of any distrust of TIM: rather it is merely on moral grounds. Try and justify it anyway you like; it was a foolish thing to do.

This, I do not disagree with. It was a treasure trove of technology and I would have left it intact, had I other options than Cerberus. An aliens+Anderson council perhaps? They still might mess up but at least they could station a few dreadnoughts nearby ready to blast it into pieces if something goes wrong. Or perhaps the Salarians - they seem to be truly brilliant scientists and STG got some Reaper experience on Virmire. Or even the Asari. Just not "our base is overrun by enemies" Cerberus.

And yeah, i dislike when Paragon Shepard goes all "it just feels wrong". I want better justification.

BS.

All other parties' experience in studying the Reapers is limited to the salvage of Sovereign's debris. Cerberus has one project succesfully completed on a damaged but partly intact and functional Reaper. The research team was lost, but its the records were retreived. Thus, Cerberus has the data to analyze and prevent making similar mistakes in the future. They are one giant step ahead of everybody else at studying the Reapers. Therefore they are the most suited group to study the Collector Base. Not to mention they are the only ones ready to begin the study immediately.

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

Regardless, blowing up the base is an incredibly stupid decision. It's also worth noting that Shepard doesn't do it because of any distrust of TIM: rather it is merely on moral grounds. Try and justify it anyway you like; it was a foolish thing to do.

I have to disagree with you there, I got the impression most of the collector base would have been semi outdated in terms of Reaper Tech and I imagine the Reapers are one of those races who have lived long enough to have a contigency for nearly everything (smug bastards). I do wish you could have chosen why you wanted to destroy or keep the collector base and your motivation could determine Paragon or Renegade. But the only reason I ever kept the collector base was because I had an unloyal Miranda and I was under the impression that she would betray me.

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...


I have to disagree with you there, I got the impression most of the collector base would have been semi outdated in terms of Reaper Tech and I imagine the Reapers are one of those races who have lived long enough to have a contigency for nearly everything (smug bastards).

THEY. WERE. BUILDING. A. REAPER!

REAPER!

A REAPER!

THEY WERE BUILDING A REAPER!

DO I HAVE TO SPELL THIS OUT FOR YOU???

If they were building a Reaper (BUILDING A REAPER!) then all the tech in a Reaper is IN THAT BASE!

We can reverse engineer their technology from working models and schematics instead of just scraps.

Go back to my point that the Reapers probably would have some fail safe in case some uppity organics got to a base where they made baby reapers.

[lovgreno]

Sajuro wrote...
Go back to my point that the Reapers probably would have some fail safe in case some uppity organics got to a base where they made baby reapers.

Sovereign is smart and resourcefull enough to make sure it doesn't leave anything behind that can be used against it.
"For no good reason at all I have uploaded the location of the "press me to kill me instantly" button every reaper have in my PC in the Collector Base. I have also left Deus EX Machina technology that can raise a minor superpower like the humans to rule the galaxy in just a few years or shorter and even threaten a huge fleet of Sovereigns family. Perhaps I should install a failsafe that wipes anything potentialy harmfull for us if I have to leave?"