1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

If there weren't value in the collector base, if keeping the base was meaningless, then there would have been no weighty choice in the first place. It wouldn't have been an end-game choice. Even if Harbringer could delete all electronic data in the base (unlikely in the first place for reasons below and for EDI), the hardware itself is invaluable for study.



The Collectors and Reapers never intended for someone to be able to get so far: you already ran their gauntlet of contingencies at that point. Their contingency for the Collector ship was that you'd not get the IFF required. For the Derilect Reaper the continengency for being in the chamber with the mass effect core was the waves of husks. For passing the Omega 4 relay, the debris clouds, Oculus drones, and then the Collector Cruiser.



But that was the end: the last real contingency besides the bases internal defenses. The base even lacked exterior defenses of its own after those, and the interior was more akin to the Reaper-derived utilitarian models than actual intentional defenses.



When you capture the Collector Base, you've done just that. You've run the gauntlet, and the Reapers lost. That they will find another way and do not simply give up means nothing about how useless the base can be to you.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Go back to my point that the Reapers probably would have some fail safe in case some uppity organics got to a base where they made baby reapers.

Sovereign is smart and resourcefull enough to make sure it doesn't leave anything behind that can be used against it.
"For no good reason at all I have uploaded the location of the "press me to kill me instantly" button every reaper have in my PC in the Collector Base. I have also left Deus EX Machina technology that can raise a minor superpower like the humans to rule the galaxy in just a few years or shorter and even threaten a huge fleet of Sovereigns family. Perhaps I should install a failsafe that wipes anything potentialy harmfull for us if I have to leave?"

Sovereign left behind plenty of valuable tech that could later be used against it: the Thannix cannons, components for the EDI AI, the Heretic Virus which I used to elimate his sole support in the galaxy.

But say you're right. Perhaps they should have installed external defenses to the base instead. That might have kept enemies out.

Or maybe the interior of the base should have had actual fortifications and been set up as a military base to repel invaders who entered.

Or maybe, just maybe, not make it so that the station generator could be conveniently altered to kill all biological life on the station, leaving anything else to be taken.


These would be far better, and more plausible, additions to the contingencies already overcome by Shepard.


In the end, though, this is all academic because the game makes it simple for you. In beating the Reapers, you can capture the technology. This is cannon. After that, theories and suggestions must fit the facts of the lore, not oppose them.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Shandepared wrote...
It sure as hell isn't the Council or Alliance.

Council in ME1 was basically taken by surprise - their fault, but still - and Alliance was mostly limited to remote outposts of little importance. Each of them has huge resources which could be activated once presented with, you know, a Reaper base along with actual Reaper. It wouldn't be a small "oh noes we are overrun" garrison, it would be a damn fotress.

Shandepared wrote...
Why'd you'd trust the STG; a potential human enemy, is beyond me.

One word: Mordin.

Salarians might not be the most reliable partners but they are brilliant and competent. And if they got any funny ideas with the reaper stuff, they are not known for being good at defense.
EDIT: And again, the Asari - they are highly intelligent, scientific minded AND are the most unifying and diplomatic force in the galaxy. They would be the least likely to use the tech against other races.

Shandepared wrote...
If anything Cerberus has shown they are quite adept at a reverse-engineering Reaper tech. EDI is a prime example of that.

And Derelict Reaper is counter-example. Yeah, yeah, they got the IFF but only because certain unstoppable force shot dead all the husks on the station.

Shandepared wrote...
Regardless, you don't have a choice and Cerberus is your only ally. You don't like it? I don't either, but that's just how it is. Nobody else believes you or is willing to help you.

"Oh hello, my non-Cerberus allies, I got this big bad space station you might want to help me deal with that is probably connected to the fate of the universe. Here, have some copies of its database and I also got a reaper eye in my cargo hold if you are feeling skeptic"

Shandepared wrote...
The Reapers are coming and they are bringing their tech with them. If you want some kind of defense against it then you need to study it now while you aren't under siege.

This, I agree. But I just don't trust Cerberus both in terms of motives and competence.

You know what would be ideal? Anyone - hell, might be even Cerberus - getting the station, BUT have Shepard stay there with his murder team. Have them have some trips to Omega every now and then to chill, but in general oversee everything, shoot everything that forgot to die and stop those damn idiot scientists from throwing themselves on those damn spikes.

Modifié par Mouton_Alpha, 26 mai 2010 - 12:09 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Council in ME1 was basically taken by surprise - their fault, but still -[/quote]

There is no 'but'. They don't even recognize this threat and they can't take the base in the first place. Did you forget where that base was? They can't occupy the base for the same reason they can't care about the colony abductions. [/quote]
First, this is way more proof. They just might turn around after due deliberation. And if not, there are those other options.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Mouton_Alpha wrote...

One word: Mordin. [/quote]

He's one man, not an entire organization. I seem to recall another STG member you met who wasn't quite so reliable.[/quote]
As organization, they made genophage, a very complex AND precise piece of science. Even though they had a way easier option (have it exterminate the krogan completely).
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Mouton_Alpha wrote...

And Derelict Reaper is counter-example. Yeah, yeah, they got the IFF but only because certain unstoppable force shot dead all the husks on the station.[/quote]

Which was made possible whom bringing him back to life and giving him a ship, exactly? I also don't recall Shepard recovering the IFF from the Reaper itself; the Cerberus team did that and Shepard just retrieved it. [/quote]
Uh, here we are obviously going in circles and will not agree. To me, it looked very much like spontaneous damage control conducted mainly by Shepard skills and not like a show of competence on Cerberus part. Yeah, investment in Shepard was a succes, but they don't automatically get credit for all Shepard actions. No, they really don't.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
They already had pieces of a Reaper and that didn't convince them, what makes you think this will change? [/quote]
Yes, how about some bigger pieces? Or complete pieces of equipment? Or data from the base computers? Recordings? Sure, they could refute that, seeing as they were written as idiots by Bioware, but they did concede in the past in the face of more solid data.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Also I again must ask as to how you expect these governments to acquire this base. Cerberus can beat you to it.
[/quote]
Oh, that's easy - the only Reaper IFF that works is on Normandy. No one gets through Omega Relay without Shepard giving them this tech.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
You don't have to trust them, and you have no reason to think they aren't competent. [/quote]
Ugh. Another point were we simply disagree.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
However you are completely sabotaging any possibility of making this base useful. Researching it may be dangerous, but the benefits justify it. If it goes belly up then you're left with nothing, and if you destroy it then you are left with nothing. However if you save it then you might get something useful out of it. [/quote]
You know, this dillema once again shows how good Bioware can be We might reach different conclusions here, but the problem here is interesting and engaging, without an easy answer.




[/quote]

[superimposed]

Wrong: if Shepard dies Cerberus is awfully quick to get a fleet in there. Considering that the Normandy is filled with monitoring and tracking devices you can guarantee that as soon as you acquired the IFF Cerberus high command was busy in a far off corner of the galaxy making copies.

All the blackholes and sheer distance might have but a dampner on that.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Shandepared wrote...
What other options?

As I said, Alliance or any of the council races. Or a mix of them, ignoring the council if they persist in idiocy.

Shandepared wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

As organization, they made genophage, a very complex AND precise piece of science. Even though they had a way easier option (have it exterminate the krogan completely).

That has nothing to do with reverse engineering technology. If you want experts at that then you want Cerberus or the turians.

I am pointing to the fact that they are brilliant scientists. Also, I haven't had a mission "salarian science base overrun by husks". Besides, genophage is just an example, it is consistently stressed in ME that science is their forte, not just one area of it.

Shandepared wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Yeah, investment in Shepard was a succes, but they don't automatically get credit for all Shepard actions. No, they really don't.

Why not?

A parent who brings up a powerful politician or a brilliant surgeon who saves him so that he can later win a world war or something do not exactly take credit for what he does. They are commendable, but little more.

As to equipment (Normandy) and intel, the same was provided by Council and the Alliance in ME, so they are at least as brilliant as Cerberus in this respect.

Shandepared wrote...
None of that will prove that hundreds of dreadnaughts are waiting in dark space to kill us all. In the fact the Collector link to the Protheans will work against you in this case. Anyone other than Cerberus who examines the base will probably just conclude that this is what became of the Protheans and that Sovereign was a Prothean ship.

A lot of proof out there. Of course, the problem in ME was that any relations with council were simplistic and stupid, which is sad because it is a Bioware game. Any serious ruling body like this would at least investigate Shepard's claims, delegate a team to check it it just in case instead of repeatedly ignoring or rebutting Shepard. That just wasn't believable. So I can't really continue arguing about what Council would do because Bioware really failed in writing them.

Shandepared wrote...
Though if you feel the tech is dangerous then you have no reason to believe that any other organization wouldn't have it blow up in their face either.

I agree, any organization can mess up, but I would prefer bigger ones with more people to throw at the problem. Cerberus tends to operate in smaller cells which heightens the possiblity of the "ugh, we lost contact with our base, i hear only screams on the comm channel" situation.

But as I mentioned writing, I don't think Bioware gave Cerberus justice either. Their failures seem quite stupid and made mostly so that Shepard has something to do. If they were written consistently, they would have avoided most if not all of them.

Shandepared wrote...
Wrong: if Shepard dies Cerberus is awfully quick to get a fleet in there. Considering that the Normandy is filled with monitoring and tracking devices you can guarantee that as soon as you acquired the IFF Cerberus high command was busy in a far off corner of the galaxy making copies.

First, even if Shepard dies, Normandy survives. Second, it's debatable whether they can just copy the Reaper IFF - it my be reliant on hardware for all we know as well as EDI integration.

Modifié par Mouton_Alpha, 26 mai 2010 - 03:50 .

[Nightwriter]

superimposed wrote...

Wrong: if Shepard dies Cerberus is awfully quick to get a fleet in there. Considering that the Normandy is filled with monitoring and tracking devices you can guarantee that as soon as you acquired the IFF Cerberus high command was busy in a far off corner of the galaxy making copies.

All the blackholes and sheer distance might have but a dampner on that.

Ah yes, "black holes" and "distance".

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Shandepared wrote...

What good would diplomacy do them? Their interest is purely in humanity. When it comes to forging Alliances and maintaining relations we've got the Systems Alliance. Cerberus job frequently includes stealing from, assassinating, or otherwise hindering rival powers. Diplomacy with aliens is not in their interest.

I'd like to point out the bold here. Cerberus' goal is to advance humanity, no matter the costs. If the most effective means is through diplomacy with aliens, then they logically should do so to meet their interests.

Let's imagine the scenario in which Shepard chooses to destroy the Collector base. Unfortunately, Cerberus now does not have access to the Collector base and all its advanced Reaper technology. They must now rely on their previous 'inferior' (though still admirable) technology.
 
So unless TIM had some alternate 'master' plan in the works, he now finds himself in a difficult position. Fight the Reapers alone? Or release what information you have and attempt to unite all organics against them? You ignore diplomacy at your own risk. All this demonstrates is how even Cerberus can allow their personal feelings to get in the way. Logically, they should unite all organics, but their 'hatred' of aliens would deny them this.

1. They kept their end of the bargain; the doctor even says that any drugs injected into him were intended to stabilize him. His malnutrition is likely the fault of his biology; I doubt Cerberus has a lot of quarian/turian edible food on hand. What he got was probably whatever was on hand, and it might have been poor quality. They didn't torture him and any trauma he suffered was accidental.

2. As a Cerberus operative I wouldnt' care what you thought about our treatment of Veetor;

3. our mission is the Collectors, not human/quarian relations.

1. Did they really? Technically Veetor was to be returned "unharmed". Or would you say he was 'unharmed' when Jacob/Miranda pick him up on Freedom's Project? However, this is irrelevant. It implies that there is some moral obligation in fulfilling our promises.

As a separate issue, the doctor and Miranda also point out that they were "brute force" drugs. These drugs were responsible for causing Veetor pain, hence Cerberus increased his pain suffered. They used the drugs (and the pain consequently) to obtain information. This meets the definition of torture, causing pain to obtain infomation.

2. And you aided my point. "As a Cerberus operative, I wouldn't care what you thought about our treatment of Veetor". Considering what we know about the drugs and the state in which he's returned in addition to Cerberus' other operations, I'm skeptical that you think he wasn't tortured in some way with that sort of approach. If Cerberus doesn't care about his treatment, then they obviously wouldn't mind torturing him.

3. Your "mission" is the Collectors. Why is this your mission? Because your goal is to "advance humanity at any cost" and the Collectors seek to wipe out humanity, which is against Cerberus' interests.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 26 mai 2010 - 08:24 .

[Nightwriter]

Give Veeter to Cerberus on faith that he won't be tortured? Not something I've ever done.

When the choice was first presented I felt very worried and ominous about it. I didn't know what they'd do to him, and anyway, we had his omnitool and all the data we needed.

When I found out they'd treated him so badly if you gave Veetor to Cerberus, aside from being grimly unsurprised, I was like, why? What were they trying to get out of him that wasn't already in the omnitool? Do they ever say?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

You get an e-mail from Tali's father (!), confirming her transfer (!) to the Normandy before she tells you about the trial. Maybe the Quarians were aiming for the same end as TIM had been, when he put Tali on your list. I mean espionage.

Ah, I remember the e-mail vaguely now. I don't recall the whole of it however. Do you remember off-hand if Tali's father knew that the new Normandy was technically registered to Cerberus? If not, I don't think this ultimately supports relations between the two.

And what about Miranda? She is with Shepard? Or with Tali?

Take your pick, either one works. Shepard, a great war hero, is accepted to be with Tali. Miranda is allowed either because she accompanies Shepard or also accompanies Tali. What I'm saying is that it's not an accomplishment to say that Cerberus was allowed aboard the flotilla, at least not to the degree you imply. Shepard was the only reason they were allowed at all and his official involvement with Cerberus is not...well, official.

Humanity got Udina for diplomacy. You don't like him either, I suppose... But Cerberus is not about diplomacy. It's about intelligence, dangerous research and black ops. That's their job description, not diplomacy. You can't seriously blame them for being poor at diplomacy.

Well, to be honest, I personally love Udina. He's a great character/excellent politician, if a little on the 'meek' side. But to me, this comes down to one question: are they still secretly affiliated with the Alliance? If this ultimately is a huge conspiracy and the Alliance is using Cerberus to employ all their 'black ops' research, then I can definitely see why Cerberus has no need to use diplomacy; the 'legal' Alliance can handle that. But if Cerberus really is a splinter organization, then even if they have similarities, then they are technically a separate entity. Humanity does not have Udina for diplomacy in this case; the Alliance has Udina for diplomacy.

Obviously, Veetor's well-being was not a priority. Still, as I said, he fared better than Tyrone Rawlings or the ExoGeni envoy to the Blue Suns.

True, but 'faring better' is still a comparative issue. Veetor faring better than Rawlings is not the same as saying that Veetor 'fared well'. That's why I think that it's still not appraising Cerberus' involvement correctly. They don't care about the Council's ethical standards (understandable), but even if they only attempted to drug him, I think they definitely would not hesitate to use that pain to their advantage.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 26 mai 2010 - 08:43 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Edit: Aw, whatever. This will be my last post on the subject. If your interpretation of torture differs from the UN's and my active action definition, I can't help that. I've even deleted this post so it doesn't seem like I'm insisting on getting the last word.

Fair enough. I wouldn't hold that against you either way. It was an enjoyable discussion at least. Apologies if I seemed confrontational, it was not intentional.

[lovgreno]

Nightwriter wrote...
When I found out they'd treated him so badly if you gave Veetor to Cerberus, aside from being grimly unsurprised, I was like, why? What were they trying to get out of him that wasn't already in the omnitool? Do they ever say?

It's not even a effective way of getting usefull information. A person who is scared or in pain will say anything and even belive it themselves. Questioning Veetor where he felt safe, in the company of other quarians, would probably be the only way to get anything usefull out of him. So here we have another example of Cerberus incompetence.

[Dean_the_Young]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Edit: Aw, whatever. This will be my last post on the subject. If your interpretation of torture differs from the UN's and my active action definition, I can't help that. I've even deleted this post so it doesn't seem like I'm insisting on getting the last word.

Fair enough. I wouldn't hold that against you either way. It was an enjoyable discussion at least. Apologies if I seemed confrontational, it was not intentional.

No hard feelings from this direction if there are none from the other: usually I'm the one sounding confrontational. I enjoyed it to while it lasted.

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Go back to my point that the Reapers probably would have some fail safe in case some uppity organics got to a base where they made baby reapers.

Let's take your logic full circle: if saving the base is pointless because they have a back-up plan then so was stopping Sovereign in the first game. 

Saving the base isn't pointless because they have a back up plan, it is something to be wary of because they have a back up plan. And yes, stopping Sovereign in the first game is pointless if it isn't followed up on: the Reapers aren't like the effin predators who give you a cool gun and leave your planet when you kill one of them!  Other races have killed single Reapers before the current cycle came around, but they haven't effectively capitilized  on it so it was pointless as far as they were concerned.

Modifié par Sajuro, 26 mai 2010 - 09:24 .

[Sajuro]

Nightwriter wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Wrong: if Shepard dies Cerberus is awfully quick to get a fleet in there. Considering that the Normandy is filled with monitoring and tracking devices you can guarantee that as soon as you acquired the IFF Cerberus high command was busy in a far off corner of the galaxy making copies.

All the blackholes and sheer distance might have but a dampner on that.

Ah yes, "black holes" and "distance".

We've dismissed this claim.
In all seriousness, Cerberus could have had more ships but they read the star maps were wrong and flew too close to them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Go back to my point that the Reapers probably would have some fail safe in case some uppity organics got to a base where they made baby reapers.

Let's take your logic full circle: if saving the base is pointless because they have a back-up plan then so was stopping Sovereign in the first game. 

Saving the base isn't pointless because they have a back up plan, it is something to be wary of because they have a back up plan. And yes, stopping Sovereign in the first game is pointless if it isn't followed up on: the Reapers aren't like the effin predators who give you a cool gun and leave your planet when you kill one of them!  Other races have killed single Reapers before the current cycle came around, but they haven't effectively capitilized  on it so it was pointless as far as they were concerned.

In all this, you've forgotten to mention what the backup plan to invalidate the technological gains would be. Something that can't be easily overcome.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Shandepared wrote...
Can you not read, did you not graduate second grade?

And here I thought I was aguing on a relatively respectful level. Also, you basically went full circle on most of the arguments and I could just quote my earlier posts now, lol. So, nevermind.

[DirtyVagrant]

I don't know, you gotta give some credit to Cerberus for successfully launching a mission that the likes of the Alliance or any other government would have undertaken. They managed to revive Shepard and locate a group of specialists he/she could recruit to help with the success of stopping the Collectors. They gave him his life back, a better Normandy and pointed him/her in the direction of the Reapers. You can't fault them for giving Shepard the MEANS to stop the single greatest threat imaginable.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Go back to my point that the Reapers probably would have some fail safe in case some uppity organics got to a base where they made baby reapers.

Let's take your logic full circle: if saving the base is pointless because they have a back-up plan then so was stopping Sovereign in the first game. 

Saving the base isn't pointless because they have a back up plan, it is something to be wary of because they have a back up plan. And yes, stopping Sovereign in the first game is pointless if it isn't followed up on: the Reapers aren't like the effin predators who give you a cool gun and leave your planet when you kill one of them!  Other races have killed single Reapers before the current cycle came around, but they haven't effectively capitilized  on it so it was pointless as far as they were concerned.

In all this, you've forgotten to mention what the backup plan to invalidate the technological gains would be. Something that can't be easily overcome.

1. The base has some indoctrination feature (however since it isn't sentient, the effects would probably be along the lines of the Derelict Reaper where everyone went insane and huskified).
2. There is some remote control feature hidden within the base akin to the one with the citadel
3. the base doesn't have wi-fi (those bastards!)
4. Following Cthulu mythos... there are things in the base that drive people insane just by reading or looking at them.
5. Base is remarkably easy to destroy through computer console
6. All weapons produced from that tech have a hidden blackbox feature that they won't function without. While innocous enough on its own, it will cause the weapons to sieze up when a Reaper is in the area.
Extra
7. Cerberus would be in charge of it, so Shepard will have to go back and fight through a huskified crew.

[Sajuro]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

I don't know, you gotta give some credit to Cerberus for successfully launching a mission that the likes of the Alliance or any other government would have undertaken. They managed to revive Shepard and locate a group of specialists he/she could recruit to help with the success of stopping the Collectors. They gave him his life back, a better Normandy and pointed him/her in the direction of the Reapers. You can't fault them for giving Shepard the MEANS to stop the single greatest threat imaginable.

The mission launching was good, but as mentioned earlier in the thread the finding of the specialists isn't that hard for any organization to do.
Archangel (Garrus): Would find him through listening to comm chatter on Omega and realizing someone is pissing off all the Omega gangs so he had to be good.
Mordin: well known on Omega, not making any attempt to hide
Jack: Go to purgatory and ask for the meanest mother ****er there
Okeer (supposed to be but got grunt):He isn't the most popular Krogan so there would be plenty to sell him out for a sum
Samara: not every day a Justicar wanders out of Asari space so people take notice
Thane: Famous Assassin, contact him to kill someone and tell Shepard where to be.
Zaeed: Famous Mercenary, just dangle enough money in front of his face.
Kasumi: present an enticing enough target and tape a note saying that you want to hire her on the inside
Tali: meeting her the first time was an accident so TIM just thought to keep an eye on her since it could get Shep further onto his side if he got one of his old squadmates.
Legion: Not planned

[Dean_the_Young]

1. The Derilect Reaper was a Reaper, designed to indoctrinate others. The Collector Base was never meant to even be seen by others, let alone captured.



Moreover, indoctrination is (a) circumventable and ( something you want to learn to deal with now. Conquering indoctrination is a reason to keep the base.



2. The remote control of the Citadel was to activate a relay into dark space. If the Collector Base could do that, the Reapers would already have arrived. If Harbringer could have destroyed the base from a distance, he would have done so immediately.



He didn't.



This is not a crippling, let alone credible, fear.



3. You aren't even trying.



4. That only occurred because a full reaper was still partially alive. Not a threat, let alone credible deterrent.



5. The only people who can make it through the Omega relay safely at this point are Cerberus (allies), the Collectors (dead), and the Reapers (not here). Moreover, Cerberus can take measures to defend against an attack.



6. Blackbox only happens when you replicate systems, and then only if you do so without understanding what you're dealing with. Technology doesn't come with blackboxes, and researching the technology to understand it allows for replication without the blackboxes.



7. If there were any sign of indoctrination risk in the base in the first place, or indoctrination weren't circumventable. Shepard has been exposed briefly plenty of times, and he isn't indoctrinated.

[TuringPoint]

 When you give a large amount of money to a few people... mostly they'll just produce big problems.  That's my theory.

For the topic at hand, I have to say that, isn't indoctrination a fairly length process?  Like more than a week?  If Cerberus has thousands of scientists, they might be able to rotate on and off the station at great expense, but otherwise... 

A lot of it is total conjecture.  I would say that it generally seems like a short term resolution to the problem.  If we imitate reaper tech there are all sorts of risks, comparable to the power you are finding.  If you can make a reaper you won't be able to fleet of reapers with it, and if we have the technical capacity to defeat reapers in any way whatsoever we don't need to make a reaper to find that out.

In all likelihood, and if history is inclined to repeat itself - it generally is - the only thing you can get from a Reaper base is more Reaper or more Collector.  In other words, how would it give us any way to counter their technology?  And if it did it would carry equal risk of indoctrination or misuse of their technology.

Unless they have information relating to something other than making reapers or studying genetics, which we have no hint of at any point in the game.  The Collector's are in the galaxy to gather genetic data about the galaxy.

Modifié par Alocormin, 27 mai 2010 - 01:17 .