1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

1. The Derilect Reaper was a Reaper, designed to indoctrinate others. The Collector Base was never meant to even be seen by others, let alone captured.

As it was said earlier, the base was being used to make Reapers so they would have some kind of indoctrination components inside it. Besides why woudn't there be some kind of feature to do that even if the only beings that are supposed to be there are under your direct control. It would be a backup plan the presumably took very little energy (evidenced by the Derelict Reaper) and could be a put it in and forget it insurance policy.
Besides, the only way someone has overcome indoctrination is being stuck into the Thorian and Shep broke it in ME
and yeah I know 'broke' isn't the right word since the Thorian was alive... I just like broke better

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

1. The Derilect Reaper was a Reaper, designed to indoctrinate others. The Collector Base was never meant to even be seen by others, let alone captured.

As it was said earlier, the base was being used to make Reapers so they would have some kind of indoctrination components inside it.

They'd have the components to build an indoctrination device, yes. That is all the more reason to capture the base. If the base itself was capable of indoctrination you'd have had no crew to save.

I don't know if they could exactly have heard the little signal (since that's what it seems to be) inside those pods. Besides if you waited long enough for them to be indoctrinated, they would have already been made into human smoothies

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

1. The Derilect Reaper was a Reaper, designed to indoctrinate others. The Collector Base was never meant to even be seen by others, let alone captured.

As it was said earlier, the base was being used to make Reapers so they would have some kind of indoctrination components inside it. Besides why woudn't there be some kind of feature to do that even if the only beings that are supposed to be there are under your direct control. It would be a backup plan the presumably took very little energy (evidenced by the Derelict Reaper) and could be a put it in and forget it insurance policy.
Besides, the only way someone has overcome indoctrination is being stuck into the Thorian and Shep broke it in ME
and yeah I know 'broke' isn't the right word since the Thorian was alive... I just like broke better

The components to build an indoctrination device =/= an active indoctrination device, Sajuro, in the same way that a pack of crayons and paper does not equal valuable artwork.


If you're asking why would someone NOT boobytrap a base which (A) they don't even intend to put external sensors on and ( which will constantly be used for high-end sciences by organic species which are already weak enough without being nerfed some more? 

The Collector Base already had time and opportunity to be made into a real uncrackable defensive position (like external base defenses, and internal defense systems, and protecting the station core), and the Reapers didn't put such defenses in. Such defenses would come well ahead of hypothetical indoctrination booby traps which can simply be circumvented by remote-control robots.

The Thorian is the only way to date that Indoctrination has been circumvented in large part because there has never been an opportunity to study and reverse engineer the technology of Indoctrination and why it works.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

1. The Derilect Reaper was a Reaper, designed to indoctrinate others. The Collector Base was never meant to even be seen by others, let alone captured.

As it was said earlier, the base was being used to make Reapers so they would have some kind of indoctrination components inside it.

They'd have the components to build an indoctrination device, yes. That is all the more reason to capture the base. If the base itself was capable of indoctrination you'd have had no crew to save.

I don't know if they could exactly have heard the little signal (since that's what it seems to be) inside those pods. Besides if you waited long enough for them to be indoctrinated, they would have already been made into human smoothies

Since indoctrination fields penetrate space ships and houses and other such things, there's no reason to believe that any material will block indoctrination unless sugested otherwise by the story.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

1. The Derilect Reaper was a Reaper, designed to indoctrinate others. The Collector Base was never meant to even be seen by others, let alone captured.

As it was said earlier, the base was being used to make Reapers so they would have some kind of indoctrination components inside it.

They'd have the components to build an indoctrination device, yes. That is all the more reason to capture the base. If the base itself was capable of indoctrination you'd have had no crew to save.

I don't know if they could exactly have heard the little signal (since that's what it seems to be) inside those pods. Besides if you waited long enough for them to be indoctrinated, they would have already been made into human smoothies

Since indoctrination fields penetrate space ships and houses and other such things, there's no reason to believe that any material will block indoctrination unless sugested otherwise by the story.

Refer back to them being goo by the time they would be indoctrinated.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Since indoctrination fields penetrate space ships and houses and other such things, there's no reason to believe that any material will block indoctrination unless sugested otherwise by the story.

Well, they were unconscious, so it might have prevented indoctrination.

But I don't find it very likely that the base was indoctrinating those within - I always connected indoctrination with Reapers themselves. There is/was probaly a lot of nasty tech in there, some of it indoctrinating, but we simply have no data. I don't think anything was transmitting by default base-wide, though.

[lovgreno]

Alocormin wrote...
 When you give a large amount of money to a few people... mostly they'll just produce big problems.  That's my theory.

Not always but if said people are hiding to avoid taking the inevitable negative consequences there is no reason for them to improve their methods. Isolation leads to stagnation.
Criminal or ideologicaly extreme organisations are usulaly bad investments.
So what if Cerberus keeps losing bases? As long as their sponsors gives them resources without demanding results there is no reason for Cerberus to improve themselves.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

1. The Derilect Reaper was a Reaper, designed to indoctrinate others. The Collector Base was never meant to even be seen by others, let alone captured.

As it was said earlier, the base was being used to make Reapers so they would have some kind of indoctrination components inside it.

They'd have the components to build an indoctrination device, yes. That is all the more reason to capture the base. If the base itself was capable of indoctrination you'd have had no crew to save.

I don't know if they could exactly have heard the little signal (since that's what it seems to be) inside those pods. Besides if you waited long enough for them to be indoctrinated, they would have already been made into human smoothies

Since indoctrination fields penetrate space ships and houses and other such things, there's no reason to believe that any material will block indoctrination unless sugested otherwise by the story.

Refer back to them being goo by the time they would be indoctrinated.

Which rejects nothing of what I said about half your line of argument. The other had already been addressed.

If the base were constantly indoctrinating (something which would steadily ruin the Collectors working inside from over-indoctrination, and something you still have not given any basis for in light of other, more serious, defense lackings), that still would not be an absolute obstacle becauase (a) it can still be circumvented by machines and turned off and ( indoctrination is something you would have to overcome at some point anyway.

[Nightwriter]

I admit I went more with my gut on the decision to keep or destroy the Collector base.

[Dean_the_Young]

So the fate of the galaxy could well depend on the quality of food you had for breakfast?



Mess Sargent Gardner better wash his hands before the Collector Base, that's all I'm going to say. Oh, wait-

[Pacifien]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Since indoctrination fields penetrate space ships and houses and other such things, there's no reason to believe that any material will block indoctrination unless sugested otherwise by the story.

Well, they were unconscious, so it might have prevented indoctrination.

They were going to be liquified. Indoctrination seems unnecessary at that point.

Not only that, but it would appear a Reaper has some control over the effects of indoctrination. The stronger the indoctrination, the less capable the affected become. So simply having the capability to indoctrinate doesn't automatically lead to indoctrination.

Depending on how you view Harbinger's control of the Collector General, the Reapers do seem to have the ability to indoctrinate those on the base should they choose.

[NKKKK]

I'm glad to see people are making a case FOR Cerberus.

[Fiannawolf]

Well if the shoe fits.......considering how much Shepard has to *"save" thier sorry butts in all the DLC.



*Please note: All my Sheps definately dont want to save any parts of cerberus, merely get more info and or evidence to bring to the alliance later on. Screw you TIM.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

1. The Derilect Reaper was a Reaper, designed to indoctrinate others. The Collector Base was never meant to even be seen by others, let alone captured.

As it was said earlier, the base was being used to make Reapers so they would have some kind of indoctrination components inside it.

They'd have the components to build an indoctrination device, yes. That is all the more reason to capture the base. If the base itself was capable of indoctrination you'd have had no crew to save.

I don't know if they could exactly have heard the little signal (since that's what it seems to be) inside those pods. Besides if you waited long enough for them to be indoctrinated, they would have already been made into human smoothies

Since indoctrination fields penetrate space ships and houses and other such things, there's no reason to believe that any material will block indoctrination unless sugested otherwise by the story.

Refer back to them being goo by the time they would be indoctrinated.

Which rejects nothing of what I said about half your line of argument. The other had already been addressed.

If the base were constantly indoctrinating (something which would steadily ruin the Collectors working inside from over-indoctrination, and something you still have not given any basis for in light of other, more serious, defense lackings), that still would not be an absolute obstacle becauase (a) it can still be circumvented by machines and turned off and ( indoctrination is something you would have to overcome at some point anyway.

Given that the collectors are more machine than prothean they probably were over indoctrinated long ago and the Reapers figured that they had to replace so much with tech so collectors could actually function.
A) okay, how would one circumvent indoctrination? and how would you turn it off if you couldn't identify what mechanism was responsible for unless you blew everything up.. hence destroying the collector base.
Again, how would you overcome indoctrination? It's not like you can block it out if you just try hard enough.

[Sajuro]

Pacifien wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Since indoctrination fields penetrate space ships and houses and other such things, there's no reason to believe that any material will block indoctrination unless sugested otherwise by the story.

Well, they were unconscious, so it might have prevented indoctrination.

They were going to be liquified. Indoctrination seems unnecessary at that point.

Not only that, but it would appear a Reaper has some control over the effects of indoctrination. The stronger the indoctrination, the less capable the affected become. So simply having the capability to indoctrinate doesn't automatically lead to indoctrination.

Depending on how you view Harbinger's control of the Collector General, the Reapers do seem to have the ability to indoctrinate those on the base should they choose.

I would say that's more of Harbinger speaking through the Reaper Tech in the Collector General.

[Pacifien]

Sajuro wrote...
I would say that's more of Harbinger speaking through the Reaper Tech in the Collector General.

Yeah, you're probably right on that one. Still, it does show that the Reapers have the ability to communicate directly with the base.

[Sajuro]

Pacifien wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
I would say that's more of Harbinger speaking through the Reaper Tech in the Collector General.

Yeah, you're probably right on that one. Still, it does show that the Reapers have the ability to communicate directly with the base.

Maybe even other Reaper tech as in the IFF which they would be able to communicate through and gain access to more systems.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Given that the collectors are more machine than prothean they probably were over indoctrinated long ago and the Reapers figured that they had to replace so much with tech so collectors could actually function.
A) okay, how would one circumvent indoctrination? and how would you turn it off if you couldn't identify what mechanism was responsible for unless you blew everything up.. hence destroying the collector base.
Again, how would you overcome indoctrination? It's not like you can block it out if you just try hard enough.

a)Machines. Specifically, remote control droids, VI/AI, and similar. If worst comes to worst, and as in so absolute worst that it violates the entire theme of the choice, then the robots carve up and cart off the interior tech of the collector base in pieces.

In the far more rational universe, they go in and turn off/blow up the source of the indoctrination signal, rendering the base harmless (again).

 Study it. Find countermeasures. Even if not a single other thing of use comes from that base, learning what can block indoctrination signals, what can nullify it, will be invaluable against the Reapers. In this baseless, unsupported the-entire-base-is-a-booby-trap scenarios, simply trying to disarm the trap will be priceless preparation for the Reapers.

[Asheer_Khan]

I noticed something weird when comes to that Reapaer holo during Collector general cutscenes.



On Horizon that holo looked like inactive (not even single arm did moved) but in base that holo was freaky alive... so maybe that base did poses some sort direct hyperlink communication whit reaper fleet?



Lets take hypotetical scenario that i do commence purge in order to "take over" that base but then when Cerberus scientists will flood her till last level in searching for any reaper tech Harbinger will reactivate again that hyperlink and learn that station is take over by weak minded species?



I am more than sure that remote activation of self destruct protocol would be his last option.

Why kills potential slaves which could help him to achieve main goal aka open relay conduit direct in to Citadel.



Vigil told the story how reapers used indoctrinated people as agents to find survivors or eliminate any possible resistance and Saren proves that indoctrination commenced by living reaper don't turn victim in to mindless zombie but in absolute dangerous agent.



Because such indoctrinated person is able to behave almost casual to mask whole indoctrination and because of that decreasing threat of exposure until will be too late for anything.

[Dean_the_Young]

Holo of Harbinger didn't look any different, really. Just more direct camera angles.



After Cerberus boards the station, why should they leave in remote control systems?



Moreover, if the indoctrination device is 'soft,' why should they leave it in long enough for it to have an effect?

[Mouton_Alpha]

Pacifien wrote...
They were going to be liquified. Indoctrination seems unnecessary at that point.

Not only that, but it would appear a Reaper has some control over the effects of indoctrination. The stronger the indoctrination, the less capable the affected become. So simply having the capability to indoctrinate doesn't automatically lead to indoctrination.

Just because they were scheduled for, uh, ascension does not mean they would be excluded from indoctrination - if, in fact, indoctrination was present in the base. Besides, the way i understand it indoctrination works passively (like in the dead reaper) and requires a conscious effort on the Reaper's part to fine tune it and grant exlusions (like Saren).

Pacifien wrote...
Depending on how you view Harbinger's control of the Collector General, the Reapers do seem to have the ability to indoctrinate those on the base should they choose.

The way I understand it Collectors were basically custom built (genetics, cybernetics) to serve the Reapers - indoctrination is more for acquiring new slaves, not maintaining the old ones like these.

[Vaenier]

Simple argument: Their goal is to make humanity stronger and dominate other races. Their effect is they have caused other races to distrust humanity, destroying the potential for powerful alliances, and causing political backlash from the council.



Thus they fail.

[Zulu_DFA]

Vaenier wrote...

Simple argument: Their goal is to make humanity stronger and dominate other races. Their effect is they have caused other races to distrust humanity, destroying the potential for powerful alliances, and causing political backlash from the council.

Thus they fail.

How many times do you hear "Cerberus" on the Galactic News, Citadel News with E. Wong, Omega News or Illium News?

ONE single time.

And I never hear of Cerberus on the news, because I shot Toombs in the 1st game.

[Vaenier]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Simple argument: Their goal is to make humanity stronger and dominate other races. Their effect is they have caused other races to distrust humanity, destroying the potential for powerful alliances, and causing political backlash from the council.

Thus they fail.

How many times do you hear "Cerberus" on the Galactic News, Citadel News with E. Wong, Omega News or Illium News?

ONE single time.

And I never hear of Cerberus on the news, because I shot Toombs in the 1st game.

I never said anything about public opinion. Its all politics and back room reports.