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[Zulu_DFA]

Vaenier wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Simple argument: Their goal is to make humanity stronger and dominate other races. Their effect is they have caused other races to distrust humanity, destroying the potential for powerful alliances, and causing political backlash from the council.

Thus they fail.

How many times do you hear "Cerberus" on the Galactic News, Citadel News with E. Wong, Omega News or Illium News?

ONE single time.

And I never hear of Cerberus on the news, because I shot Toombs in the 1st game.

I never said anything about public opinion. Its all politics and back room reports.

And in politics and back room deals everyone always distrusts everyone else, so Cerberus failed Humanity at nothing.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 mai 2010 - 02:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Simple argument: Their goal is to make humanity stronger and dominate other races. Their effect is they have caused other races to distrust humanity, destroying the potential for powerful alliances, and causing political backlash from the council.

Thus they fail.

Since all the races advance their interests and try and exert influence over the others, and yet the Citadel Council still functions, that's not a valid argument at all.

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Simple argument: Their goal is to make humanity stronger and dominate other races. Their effect is they have caused other races to distrust humanity, destroying the potential for powerful alliances, and causing political backlash from the council.

Thus they fail.

Since all the races advance their interests and try and exert influence over the others, and yet the Citadel Council still functions, that's not a valid argument at all.

Good thing I only said it was a simple argument and not a good one. Or I would be a liar.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Simple argument: Their goal is to make humanity stronger and dominate other races. Their effect is they have caused other races to distrust humanity, destroying the potential for powerful alliances, and causing political backlash from the council.

Thus they fail.

Since all the races advance their interests and try and exert influence over the others, and yet the Citadel Council still functions, that's not a valid argument at all.

Good thing I only said it was a simple argument and not a good one. Or I would be a liar.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Holo of Harbinger didn't look any different, really. Just more direct camera angles.

After Cerberus boards the station, why should they leave in remote control systems?

Moreover, if the indoctrination device is 'soft,' why should they leave it in long enough for it to have an effect?

Quick! what does the remote control system, or indoctrination device of an ancient alien race look like???
.......
.......
If you said that they look like human devices, or having beeping lights and handy labels than you have just blown up/indoctrinated
If you said you don't know... you've just been indoctrinated, huskified, and are currently on your way to being blown up.
If you say you don't care because you destroyed the base... you went onto a reaper to destroy it from the inside and get indoctrinated when you find a working arcade inside the reaper.

[lovgreno]

Sajuro wrote.
Quick! what does the remote control system, or indoctrination device of an ancient alien race look like???

Thus far all things reapers have built have in fact been a indoctrination device to an extent. It have also been subtle enough to fool even asari matriarchs.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Holo of Harbinger didn't look any different, really. Just more direct camera angles.

After Cerberus boards the station, why should they leave in remote control systems?

Moreover, if the indoctrination device is 'soft,' why should they leave it in long enough for it to have an effect?

Quick! what does the remote control system, or indoctrination device of an ancient alien race look like???

If it's a communication device, it sends a signal. If it sends a
signal, that signal can be detected and tracked.

Magic.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Sajuro wrote.
Quick! what does the remote control system, or indoctrination device of an ancient alien race look like???

Thus far all things reapers have built have in fact been a indoctrination device to an extent. It have also been subtle enough to fool even asari matriarchs.

I wasn't aware the Mass Relays were indoctrinating Shepard.

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Sajuro wrote.
Quick! what does the remote control system, or indoctrination device of an ancient alien race look like???

Thus far all things reapers have built have in fact been a indoctrination device to an extent. It have also been subtle enough to fool even asari matriarchs.

I wasn't aware the Mass Relays were indoctrinating Shepard.

OR ARE THEY?!! DUN DUN DUN!!

No seriously, I'm sure the relays are meant to be benign.

Though I do suspect the Thannix cannon is indoctrinating Garrus to want to do nothing but calibrations all the time. *rubs chin thoughtfully*

[lovgreno]

Nightwriter wrote...

OR ARE THEY?!! DUN DUN DUN!!

No seriously, I'm sure the relays are meant to be benign.

Though I do suspect the Thannix cannon is indoctrinating Garrus to want to do nothing but calibrations all the time. *rubs chin thoughtfully*

Of course you think so. Because that is what the reapers want's you to think!
Okay the relays are probalby not . Indoctrinated individuals are less effective at spreading over the galaxy to become many enough to be harvested. Everything else however have been booby trapped with indoctrination and they have a good reason to leave a failsafe just in case any organics should find it.
 Or perhaps Garrus is actualy TIMs agent and are researching how to resist the indoctrination radiating from the cannons? There is no way to be sure...

Modifié par lovgreno, 28 mai 2010 - 11:58 .

[Nightwriter]

No, every piece of Reaper tech is like the One Ring and makes those near it become obsessed with it! Like with Shu Qian! So all Garrus hears all the time is the Thannix speaking to him.

CALIBRATE ME CALIBRATE ME CALIBRATE ME ME ME ME ME!! And Garrus whispers back, "My precioussss..."

In all seriousness though, we don't know that much about indoctrination - there may be different levels. There may be powerful, aggressive indoctrination a la the Virmire scientists, or there may be very, very subtle indoctrination that only affects your perceptions or your behavior on a certain level.

[borelocin]

Cerberus are the sort of "at any cost" intelligence agency who do questionable things that end up biting them in the arse that we have in real life.



It's not that they are inept it's just that history has proven time and again that when you ally yourself with unethical people to advance an agenda they will come back to haunt you and eventually you end up having to put down people you funded and trained.

[j_huarte]

cerberus was behind the accident at Singapore International Spaceport which exposes hundreds of humans to dust-form element zero. Roughly 30% of the children born in Singapore after element zero exposure suffer from cancerous growths. However some develop the ability to be biotics.

Looking back now,harsh but rather succesful

[Zulu_DFA]

j_huarte wrote...

cerberus was behind the accident at Singapore International Spaceport which exposes hundreds of humans to dust-form element zero. Roughly 30% of the children born in Singapore after element zero exposure suffer from cancerous growths. However some develop the ability to be biotics.
Looking back now,harsh but rather succesful

Cerberus was not behind Singapore accident. At that time Cerberus simply wasn't.  Even the Alliance wasn't.

Cerberus masterminded a similar accident years later in some colony.

[NKKKK]

Conclusion: Cerberus is great

[Jestina]

I'm picturing the Illusive Man toting an AK, hiding out in a cave, and spewing his dogma at the Alliance infidels.

[Mouton_Alpha]

borelocin wrote...
It's not that they are inept it's just that history has proven time and again that when you ally yourself with unethical people to advance an agenda they will come back to haunt you and eventually you end up having to put down people you funded and trained.

Not saying it never happens, but the problem is that in real politics the allies you can choose are almost never pure white knights of justice. Hell, one's own country rarely is.

Now, the question is not whether ends justify the means or whether we must stick to our ideals - it is not a binary choice, it is a sliding scale. The question is, where on that scale you or your allies are. And Cerebrus is simply a wee bit too far out there. Allying with them when you have no other choice -like, when you are dead and all - is okay, but long term? No.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

OR ARE THEY?!! DUN DUN DUN!!

No seriously, I'm sure the relays are meant to be benign.

Though I do suspect the Thannix cannon is indoctrinating Garrus to want to do nothing but calibrations all the time. *rubs chin thoughtfully*

Of course you think so. Because that is what the reapers want's you to think!
Okay the relays are probalby not . Indoctrinated individuals are less effective at spreading over the galaxy to become many enough to be harvested. Everything else however have been booby trapped with indoctrination and they have a good reason to leave a failsafe just in case any organics should find it.
 Or perhaps Garrus is actualy TIMs agent and are researching how to resist the indoctrination radiating from the cannons? There is no way to be sure...

I wasn't aware the Citadel had indoctrinated Anderson.

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...I wasn't aware the Citadel had indoctrinated Anderson.

I never said it did. I never said it didn't. No reason to raise suspicions at the Citadel or mass relays with indoctrinated people, they are all doomed anyway when the reapers come through. Individual reapers that can die and get lost however should be equipped with failsafes so organics can't use them against the reapers. Same with other things that are not necesary for springing the trap on the organics, such as the base of the slave race of collectors. The bigger and more important a base is the more effective and subtile the defences must be. It would even make sense if the reapers used indoctrination devices to controll the collectors.

Bottom line is: Reapers have always used very subtle, yet effective, indoctrination as a defence.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...I wasn't aware the Citadel had indoctrinated Anderson.

I never said it did. I never said it didn't. No reason to raise suspicions at the Citadel or mass relays with indoctrinated people, they are all doomed anyway when the reapers come through. Individual reapers that can die and get lost however should be equipped with failsafes so organics can't use them against the reapers. Same with other things that are not necesary for springing the trap on the organics, such as the base of the slave race of collectors. The bigger and more important a base is the more effective and subtile the defences must be. It would even make sense if the reapers used indoctrination devices to controll the collectors.

Bottom line is: Reapers have always used very subtle, yet effective, indoctrination as a defence.

You claimed that all Reaper tech indoctrinates. You can either defend that claim or admit it to be gross exageration: I am pressing you to do the latter by examples. Reaper tech includes far more than just the Reapers or their indoctrination artifacts. It includes the Mass Relays, the Citadel, the husks and various creations, the Collector Ship, EDI, the Thannix cannons, and more.

Indoctrination is detectable. Indoctrination is circumventable. And, most importantly, indoctrination is something that will have to be overcome regardless, so is not a believable objection to taking the Collector Base and overcoming it now if it exists at all. Which, again, no suggestion: all seen subjects to indoctrination have reported hearing the effect as noise, whispers, presence in their head, and no one did in the Collector Base.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

[
Indoctrination is detectable. Indoctrination is circumventable. And, most importantly, indoctrination is something that will have to be overcome regardless, so is not a believable objection to taking the Collector Base and overcoming it now if it exists at all. Which, again, no suggestion: all seen subjects to indoctrination have reported hearing the effect as noise, whispers, presence in their head, and no one did in the Collector Base.

You keep saying it is circumventable, but again the only way an organic has managed to become unindoctrinated is by becoming a part of the Thorian ie being part of a hive mind. The only other way to beat it would be if you had the Rachni Queen take over the mind of anyone who is indoctrinated with her little talking through bit and that might not even work (Since the only one she possessed truly was a dead asari). And as for the noises, I was under the impression that it took a little while for that to start, and maybe someone did but they knew that saying they kept hearing something would be distracting to the mission... or maybe Jack heard it and thought it was one of the voices in her head.

[Dean_the_Young]

Or synthetics. Avoiding the biological entirely as long as there is danger.



You know. AI. VI. Robots. Droids. Mechs. Things that Cerberus has plenty of and the ability to make plenty more.



I know I've mentioned this.





You are referring to Jack, who was talking about the voices that have always been in her head prior to her closure during the loyalty mission and which have never been implied to have been indoctrination.



Indoctrination is something you hear, by all accounts. 'Hearing' it is the sign that it is breaking down your mental barriers. The faster it is the louder (such as at Eden Prime), while longer-duration exposures (like the almost-sane Salarians on Virmire) are still detectable. It also shows itself in terms of dreams.



As a field, any indoctrination device will be putting out an energy signature of some sort, no matter where it is in the base. Tracking the field and disabling the device should be well within the realm of possibility, considering Saren could 'pump in' the signal into select cells on Virmire.

[Sajuro]

What's to say the reapers wouldn't use of form of A.I. hacking that cause the A.I. or synthetics to think 2+3=5 instead of 1+2=3 (In other words, kill all squishies) The part about Jack was mostly a joke, and it probably isn't indoctrination since she didn't have any contact with Sovereign. Even Sovereign's loud indoctrination on Eden Prime was only heard by the mentally unstable doctor you get to punch out, so it suggests that even the fast indoctrination takes over a few hours for mentally stable people. By the way, do you think the people would know to look for an Indoctrination device before it was too late?

[Dean_the_Young]

Why would a virus made by geth (not the Reapers) for geth (an entirely unique sort of gestalt intelligence incomparrible to EDI-style AI or traditional VI) be effective against non-Geth? Do you kneel over and die from cow pox? How about salt? That kills slugs. Or hairspray, which kills lots of insects!

More relevantly, why wouldn't they have done so the numerous times when EDI was the only thing keeping you alive. such as the Collector Ship or Collector Base assault

Most importantly, if they could do that, don't you think that's something better to know now than when they arrive?


Why would people think to look for a possible danger? (Which, if you forgot, the very sane colonists, farmers, and smugglers: IE, everyone besides Ashley you could talk to about it, heard?)

Well, not to be too insulting, but didn't you?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 mai 2010 - 03:01 .

[Pacifien]

Out of curiosity here, what exactly is the argument being made here about indoctrination?