1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Whether the threat of an indoctrination device in the Collector Base  invalidates the weight of the final choice of the game by making keeping the base one step short of a guaranteed total disaster of some nebulous, always-changing sort.

Some have argued all Reaper technology indoctrinates. My counter has been to list numerous Reaper-tech systems which don't.

Some have argued that the Base is booby trapped as another backup plan of the Reapers. I have countered that there were far more sensible defenses and wards the Reapers could have built into the base than a booby trap, which has lacked in-game proof.

Some have argued there will be an indoctrination device trap to make a disaster. I argue that not only is the threat unsupported by mention, implication, or tell-tale presence in the game, but that an Indoctrination signal could be tracked and bypassed by VI or AI technology (which indoctrination doesn't effect), and that learning to overcome indoctrination fields is a crucial development to do before the Reapers come.

This led to another suggestion, equally without support in the game, that the hypothetical trap will also include an AI virus equivalent to the Heretic virus of the Geth. I questioned why that  virus had not been used already in the number of times the Collectors could have brought the Normandy's mission to an end, and why discovering such a virus now, rather than when the Reapers come, is a bad idea.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 mai 2010 - 03:59 .

[Sajuro]

What made the heretics was not a virus but a different way of looking at things, Legion said as much, the only virus that would have been used was to make all geth believe that. Sovereign gave the geth the basis to make the heretic virus also. As to why the Reapers didn't do that, I suspect since they are sentient at least some of them are malicious bastards who like to screw opponents over after they think they won.

[Pacifien]

Ah. Well, since little is known about indoctrination other than the danger of it is extreme, I think it'd be foolish not to be thinking about it whenever handling reaper technology. Rana Thanoptis said its effects are subtle, and you'll be indoctrinated before you even realize it's affecting you.

Now, why assume the Collector Base could hold some hidden indoctrinating device? Well, there is a dead embryonic reaper in it. Even a derelict reaper could indoctrinate.

There was also a considerable amount of husks in the base, and there is evidence of people coming across ancient reaper technology that drove everyone crazy and turned them into husks.

So yeah, if you kept the base, you have to be beyond careful. Like OCD careful. And then some. Because you don't know what's in there, and reaper technology has a nasty habit of causing problems for people messing with it before they realize it.

[Sajuro]

Pacifien wrote...

So yeah, if you kept the base, you have to be beyond careful. Like OCD careful. And then some. Because you don't know what's in there, and reaper technology has a nasty habit of causing problems for people messing with it before they realize it.

And this conversation also came about  because you give the base to Cerberus if you keep it, who doesn't seem like the careful type.

[Vicious]

I particularly enjoy how when you go around the Normany and ask the crew about the collectors, they almost all say, "Well im new to the organization but they are taking the fight to the collectors!"



They are almost all clearly a bunch of nice guys who were recruited for the sole purpose of crewing the Normandy and making Shepard see a completely different face of the organization than what they really are.

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Some have argued there will be an indoctrination device trap to make a disaster. I argue that not only is the threat unsupported by mention, implication, or tell-tale presence in the game, but that an Indoctrination signal could be tracked and bypassed by VI or AI technology (which indoctrination doesn't effect), and that learning to overcome indoctrination fields is a crucial development to do before the Reapers come.

If it's your belief that the Collector Base must be saved so that you can reverse engineer the technology to understand it, then if learning to overcome indoctrination technology is part of the development process in combating the Reapers, you must first obtain the indoctrination technology to study. Which means, if it's on the base, you have to find it and disable it before it indoctrinates you. But nobody knows what that technology looks like or where to find it, ensuring it will have every opportunity to do its job on you while you're trying to find it. That's if there is indoctrination technology to be found on the base. A dead embryonic reaper suggests that is a likely possibility.

So the smart thing to do would be to use a VI to find it, but there's no evidence that shows anyone has the technology to detect an indoctrination signal. Again, Rana Thanoptis, who is the only scientist I can think of who has extensively researched the process, could only study the effects on living subjects and not the signal itself.

As for whether or not there is technology on the base that could hack into a VI or AI, there is implicit evidence that the Reapers could do so through distant signals such that they used to communicate with the Collector General. But then I'd have to bring up the argument on whether Sovereign managed to alter the programming of the heretics before they split from the geth, which was actually an argument that I rejected, so I've got no reason to be bringing that up just to demonstrate that the Reapers have the capability. I can see other people bringing it up, though. I personally don't think there is something on the Collector Base that could alter the VI or AI, but it would be foolish not to consider the possibility.

If you don't consider the worst, then that means you haven't adequately protected yourself to study the base. Sure, the worst might not actually happen, but you have to prepare for it because you're handling dangerous technology.

[Sajuro]

Vicious wrote...

I particularly enjoy how when you go around the Normany and ask the crew about the collectors, they almost all say, "Well im new to the organization but they are taking the fight to the collectors!"

They are almost all clearly a bunch of nice guys who were recruited for the sole purpose of crewing the Normandy and making Shepard see a completely different face of the organization than what they really are.

because between Wilson's betrayel, Shep attacking Cerberus in ME, and the various accidents they probably didn't have enough available people to crew the normandy. Though it could also be TIM's strategy

[Pacifien]

Vicious wrote...
I particularly enjoy how when you go around the Normany and ask the crew about the collectors, they almost all say, "Well im new to the organization but they are taking the fight to the collectors!"

They are almost all clearly a bunch of nice guys who were recruited for the sole purpose of crewing the Normandy and making Shepard see a completely different face of the organization than what they really are.

I agree, a lot of the Cerberus crew were specially recruited solely to crew the Normandy, and thus they have no other knowledge about Cerberus's dealings. If you walk around, a lot of the crew mention personal interest in finding out what's happening to the colonies. Either they were stationed on a colony that was attacked or they have family on colonies that are possible targets.

Then there are crew that show particular loyalty to Shepard, such as Joker, Dr. Chakwas, Ken, and Gabby. And a lot of the squadmates who are recruited will say they joined Shepard's cause, not Cerberus's.

And then there are members of Cerberus such as Kelly and Miranda who believe in the cause of preserving and uplifting humanity, but don't seem to fully comprehend the extremes to which the Illusive Man will go through in order to achieve this goal. This is the very purpose of splitting up into various cells so that no one knows the others, because it allows for plausible deniability when you do find the less reputable aspects of the organization.

[TuringPoint]

Reaper technology is death technology. There's nothing that says it can be used against the reapers, or for countering the reapers, any better than we could figure with what resources are already available.

[TuringPoint]

k

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Whether the threat of an indoctrination device in the Collector Base  invalidates the weight of the final choice of the game by making keeping the base one step short of a guaranteed total disaster of some nebulous, always-changing sort.

Some have argued all Reaper technology indoctrinates. My counter has been to list numerous Reaper-tech systems which don't.

Some have argued that the Base is booby trapped as another backup plan of the Reapers. I have countered that there were far more sensible defenses and wards the Reapers could have built into the base than a booby trap, which has lacked in-game proof.

Some have argued there will be an indoctrination device trap to make a disaster. I argue that not only is the threat unsupported by mention, implication, or tell-tale presence in the game, but that an Indoctrination signal could be tracked and bypassed by VI or AI technology (which indoctrination doesn't effect), and that learning to overcome indoctrination fields is a crucial development to do before the Reapers come.

This led to another suggestion, equally without support in the game, that the hypothetical trap will also include an AI virus equivalent to the Heretic virus of the Geth. I questioned why that  virus had not been used already in the number of times the Collectors could have brought the Normandy's mission to an end, and why discovering such a virus now, rather than when the Reapers come, is a bad idea.

I have respect for your opinion.  Some valid points are suggested here.

I wanted to bring up counter arguments though.  First of all, you apparently missed when the collector ship tried to hack the normandy.  In fact, the Collector ship did eventually take over the normandy, forcing Joker to unshackle EDI.  So there very likely could be an AI virus, you don't know there couldn't be.  Why would the indoctrination "signal" be a signal that could be intercepted by regular devices?  That seems like quite a leap of logic.

Besides that is the issue of integrity.  If we have the power to figure out how to counter Reaper indoctrination or anything else, how is that base going to help us?   The collector's had a specific mission.  Why would the Reapers leave information about them on that station?  You say waiting for the Reapers to come is bad, which sounds tactically reasonable, but if we give ourselves the power to make Reapers, and we understand indoctrination so well, would there be anything to save after we defeated the reapers?

All in all I'd say the situation isn't explained that well.

[lovgreno]

Just because EDI once resisted a hacking attempt from collectors (due to pure luck mostly) using reaper tech doesn't mean it can't happen again. The reapers have now gained information about how Cerberus are using reaper tech. A reaper is way more advanced and powerfull than EDI or any reaper tech based machine made by organics so any way for the reaper to understand or acess our tech is a very big risk. If a reaper uses PC it would only make it easier for it to hack us if we also uses PC. If we use Mac however the reaper will have problems to understand our systems.



Using reaper tech is what the reapers expects us to do and they have methods of exploiting that. And they already have, with increasing sucess.

The geth are developing alternative methods, free from vunerable reaper influence. Better to work with the geth to create something the reapers don't understand.



In the war against the reapers information is power. There is no reason for the reapers to leave dangerous information in the base. The reapers have always used things that looks like valuable reaper tech as traps. The more they learn about us (by hacking our more easily acessed reaper tech for example) the more subtle and efficent these traps are becoming.



Judging from previous encounters of reaper tech the more usefull it seems the more dangerous it is. We must stop falling into reaper traps before things go fubar.

[Wolverfrog]

For all we know, Cerberus allowed Commander Shepard to destroy those Cerberus bases. Didn't Miranda say they were disobeying The Illusive Man?

[Zulu_DFA]

lovgreno wrote...

There is no reason for the reapers to leave dangerous information in the base.

This is simply a false statement. If what you've fought as final boos whas indeed what EDI told you it was, and you don't have any reason to doubt EDI's calculations, than the base containes detailed blueprints for a Reaper. What else do you think you need to discern the Reapers' weakest spot, and envisage the means necessary to exploit it.

The Reapers already know verything about us (thanks to the Collectors hard work). We still don't know squat about them.

The rant about "traps" is just mystical thinking. Somewhere down that line you'll be advocating that the Reapers will be defeated if all the sinners in the Galaxy repent and trillions of sapient (lol!) beings simultaneously pray to God for salvation.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Some have argued there will be an indoctrination device trap to make a disaster. I argue that not only is the threat unsupported by mention, implication, or tell-tale presence in the game, but that an Indoctrination signal could be tracked and bypassed by VI or AI technology (which indoctrination doesn't effect), and that learning to overcome indoctrination fields is a crucial development to do before the Reapers come.

If it's your belief that the Collector Base must be saved so that you can reverse engineer the technology to understand it, then if learning to overcome indoctrination technology is part of the development process in combating the Reapers, you must first obtain the indoctrination technology to study. Which means, if it's on the base, you have to find it and disable it before it indoctrinates you. But nobody knows what that technology looks like or where to find it, ensuring it will have every opportunity to do its job on you while you're trying to find it. That's if there is indoctrination technology to be found on the base. A dead embryonic reaper suggests that is a likely possibility.

The Reaper was just that: an embryo. Not fully formed with capabilities. It also died, and not just 'I'm still alive' like the Derilect Reaper.

The 'it affects you before you know it' is a sign that hearing it constantly overrides you, even when you try to fight it. But you still hear it, feel it.

We know that short amounts and short exposures wear off with time: otherwise, Shepard and his crew would be indoctrinated as well by now.

But, most importantly, indoctrination is a field signal. You don't have to know what the device looks like ahead of time. If you don't already know what the indoctrination field is like, once indoctrination starts (which most cases have shown evidence of), you track the field to it's transmitter. There are similar tools for determining the sources of magnetic fields and radio wave origins. You can walk right to it.

So the smart thing to do would be to use a VI to find it, but there's no evidence that shows anyone has the technology to detect an indoctrination signal. Again, Rana Thanoptis, who is the only scientist I can think of who has extensively researched the process, could only study the effects on living subjects and not the signal itself.

Blow the transmitter up, if you can't cut the power.

As for whether or not there is technology on the base that could hack into a VI or AI, there is implicit evidence that the Reapers could do so through distant signals such that they used to communicate with the Collector General. But then I'd have to bring up the argument on whether Sovereign managed to alter the programming of the heretics before they split from the geth, which was actually an argument that I rejected, so I've got no reason to be bringing that up just to demonstrate that the Reapers have the capability. I can see other people bringing it up, though. I personally don't think there is something on the Collector Base that could alter the VI or AI, but it would be foolish not to consider the possibility.

...controlling the Collector General isn't the same as demonstrating the ability to hack someone from distance. The Geth are a case against it: Sovereign couldn't hack them, and had to give the heretics a tool for doing so and two years work.

The Reaper IFF didn't hack an AI either: it hacked systems EDI wasn't even connected to. When she had access, she won. Even during the Collector Ship assault, she conquered the Collector Attacks flawlessly. What basis to say, then, that the Collector Base would be more effective against her than the Reaper IFF trap or the deliberate attack from the Collector Ship?

If you don't consider the worst, then that means you haven't adequately protected yourself to study the base. Sure, the worst might not actually happen, but you have to prepare for it because you're handling dangerous technology.

Oh, certainly. But it might be dangerous is not an effective argument for destroying the Collector Base. Especially since the dangers provided as examples would be Reaper capabilities you'd have to overcome when they arrive regardless.

[Dean_the_Young]

Alocormin wrote...

Reaper technology is death technology. There's nothing that says it can be used against the reapers, or for countering the reapers, any better than we could figure with what resources are already available.

EDI and the Thannix cannons say nothing to you? Or studying their indoctrination signal to try and counter it?

[lovgreno]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

There is no reason for the reapers to leave dangerous information in the base.

This is simply a false statement. If what you've fought as final boos whas indeed what EDI told you it was, and you don't have any reason to doubt EDI's calculations, than the base containes detailed blueprints for a Reaper. What else do you think you need to discern the Reapers' weakest spot, and envisage the means necessary to exploit it.

The Reapers already know verything about us (thanks to the Collectors hard work). We still don't know squat about them.

The rant about "traps" is just mystical thinking. Somewhere down that line you'll be advocating that the Reapers will be defeated if all the sinners in the Galaxy repent and trillions of sapient (lol!) beings simultaneously pray to God for salvation.

EDI was built by Cerberus to serve Cerberus (=TIMs) needs, not Shepards or anyone elses. Cerberus lies and manipulates, therefore EDI cannot be trusted. It would make sense for the reapers to booby trap the blueprints for a reaper. They have always done that kind of thing before.

Not mystical thinking but rather analysing what strategies the reapers use and try to avoid traps from that. Not more mystical than assuming that the base is not a trap (unlike all other reaper tech except for the citadell and mass relay trap where a indoctrination failsafe would be suspicios and unnecessary) and if it is Cerberus are too awesome to fall in that trap (even if they have always done that before).

I don't think Shepard will need to pray with the aliens but cooperate, sure, no problem. It doesn't require prayers or faith to know that the aliens have far greater resources than Cerberus resources that usualy ends up killed by their own projects. Sure it would require Shepard to unlike Cerberus prove his good intentions with action, not words. It would probably even require Shepard to admit that he and humanity don't know best all the time, but my Shepards have good enough self esteem to do that. The aliens have even less reasons than Shepard to trust Cerberus though, so TIMs vague talk of human superiority would have to be sacrificed for the greater good.

But to follow Cerberus you need blind faith on the other hand. The ways of TIM cannot be understood by the stupid masses (including Shepard) so it must all be secret. But he promises this project will be a sucess, unlike the previous ones.

[Vaenier]

I really hope that by destroying the base, those players will suffer heavy losses in the final battle. make it actually mean something please. the survivors would be all happy and one big family, but the renegade player's galaxy will have more alive, and they get an extra mission of dealing with Cerberus.

[Dean_the_Young]

Alocormin wrote...

I have respect for your opinion.  Some valid points are suggested here.

I wanted to bring up counter arguments though.  First of all, you apparently missed when the collector ship tried to hack the normandy.  In fact, the Collector ship did eventually take over the normandy, forcing Joker to unshackle EDI.  So there very likely could be an AI virus, you don't know there couldn't be.  .

It also failed to hack EDI multiple times. That failure rather mitigates the concern that they have an AI virus that will take down EDI when, well, they couldn't.

Why would the indoctrination "signal" be a signal that could be
intercepted by regular devices?  That seems like quite a leap of logic

First, because it is technology, and technology is not magic. Everything that emits a signal can be received, and if the biological mind can receive it then you already have a first avenue of approach right there.

Saren has already proved that you can capture indoctrination signal and manipulate it. (He also proved you can make structures to block it out: the control subject cell.)

Since indoctrination is a technology (IE, follows constant, predictable rules of action), emits a signal every organic in the universe receives (and proof can be received), and can be measured, why would this be a leap of logic rather than steps along a rather broad bridge?

Besides that is the issue of integrity.  If we have the power to figure out how to counter Reaper indoctrination or anything else, how is that base going to help us?   The collector's had a specific mission.  Why would the Reapers leave information about them on that station?  You say waiting for the Reapers to come is bad, which sounds tactically reasonable, but if we give ourselves the power to make Reapers, and we understand indoctrination so well, would there be anything to save after we defeated the reapers?

All in all I'd say the situation isn't explained that well.

I wish there were a face palm smile, but that would be too silly for this blindness.

Why being able to counter Reaper indoctrinatin can help you should be obvious immediately.

Why the Reapers should have information and infrastructure about Reapers on a captured station made to build Reapers should be obvious.

Why understanding how to make Reapers does not necessitate doing just that, and why making a handful of Reapers against the hoard is an impossible, ineffeficient and pointless waste of the technology, should be obvious.

Why understanding indoctrination will kill everyone is beyond even God.

[STG]

Vaenier wrote...

I really hope that by destroying the base, those players will suffer heavy losses in the final battle. make it actually mean something please. the survivors would be all happy and one big family, but the renegade player's galaxy will have more alive, and they get an extra mission of dealing with Cerberus.

Both choices are "right" ones. Since thats the case why should one be rewarded over the other?

[Dean_the_Young]

Only for the vaguest and most meaningless of 'right' as 'what I wanted.'



One prepares you for the Reapers and makes the odds evener, with narrative implications of reducing the over death toll. The other does not, and turns away the one agency in Citadel space actively opposing the Reapers.

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Only for the vaguest and most meaningless of 'right' as 'what I wanted.'

One prepares you for the Reapers and makes the odds evener, with narrative implications of reducing the over death toll. The other does not, and turns away the one agency in Citadel space actively opposing the Reapers.

You are right. Choices should not always be equal. What is the point of chosing if both options have the same result. There should be wrong options, and players should have to suffer the consequences of their decisions.
Kill the Rachni? You lose a valuable ally and many other races suffer loses because of it. Destroy the Base? You lose massive amounts of technology and suffer even heavier losses in the battle. You kill the council? You cant unite all the aliens for the final battle, resulting in a weaker force. Make enough of these choices, and you may just lose.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or synthetics. Avoiding the biological entirely as long as there is danger.

You know. AI. VI. Robots. Droids. Mechs. Things that Cerberus has plenty of and the ability to make plenty more.

Even some kind of isolating suits might suffice. But yeah, robotic exploration could work nicely.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Indoctrination is something you hear, by all accounts.

Wasn't it about subtle vibrations too? But that's not far away.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
As a field, any indoctrination device will be putting out an energy signature of some sort, no matter where it is in the base. Tracking the field and disabling the device should be well within the realm of possibility, considering Saren could 'pump in' the signal into select cells on Virmire.

Not sure about the energy signature, for all w know this stuff can be heavily decentralized and woven into the design/structure, especially on a reaper or collector base (if it is present there). Also, I am hardly a physics pro, but if it is sound then the signals might be resonating all across/amplifed by the structure itself. Pure speculation, ofc.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
..controlling the Collector General isn't the same as demonstrating the
ability to hack someone from distance.

Ugh, yeah, enough with this magical hacking over a walkie-talkie. Hacking is NOT a minigame! :/

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Some have argued all Reaper technology indoctrinates. My counter has
been to list numerous Reaper-tech systems which don't.

Well, there is a rough distinction between the Trap Reaper Tech ™, like Citadel and mass relays and Assault Reaper Tech ™, like dragon's teeth, collector stuff, and Reaper bodies.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Some have argued that the Base is booby trapped as another backup plan
of the Reapers. I have countered that there were far more sensible
defenses and wards the Reapers could have built into the base than a
booby trap, which has lacked in-game proof.

The argument, I think, is not really for a booby trap - it's just that Reaper's build their stuff to last millenia (or millions of years as evidenced on derelict reaper). Thus, it is supposed to be reasonably autonomous, ready to go online and indoctrinate/huskify/whatever all warm bodies in vicinity. Equipment that does not need the oh-so-temporary slaves to run it. Of course, there is Citadel that still needs the Keepers, but citadel is absolutely central to Reaper plans.

Alocormin wrote...

Reaper technology is death technology.
There's nothing that says it can be used against the reapers, or for
countering the reapers, any better than we could figure with what
resources are already available.

Ok, now that's quite random. Actually, it is exactly the argument the paragon choice had. I mean, ok, Reaper stuff is all gloomy and genocidey, but this line of thinking is simply not practical and borders on the religious. It is all technology - a very vile technology, developed by mad cthulhu robots, but still just cogs and springs that can be understood and counteracted. Also, like others mentioned, Thanix Cannon.

[STG]

Destroying the base is right because you have to choose between giving it to space-ww2-germany or not giving it to anyone.



So yeah, poof goes the base.

[Arijharn]

lovgreno wrote...

EDI was built by Cerberus to serve Cerberus (=TIMs) needs, not Shepards or anyone elses. Cerberus lies and manipulates, therefore EDI cannot be trusted. It would make sense for the reapers to booby trap the blueprints for a reaper. They have always done that kind of thing before.

I don't believe you have really thought it through to be honest. EDI proves during the course of the game that it maintains at least some resemblance of the concept of loyalty to her crewmates (in other words, it isn't a complete Cerberus controlled puppet otherwise it wouldn't notify you on the relative strengths (as it see's it) of the Cerberus organisation. Could this be misinformation? Quite possibly, but that could be as possible as Cerberus Command deliberately putting this false information down as EDI, although why it's stored in Normandy's databases is cause for speculation in and of itself.

Why does it make sense for the Reaper to booby trap the 'blueprints for making a Reaper'? Bear in mind that the Collector Base was located in an incredibly inhospitable area of the galaxy (the core, and that blackhole was probably the super-massive black hole; Sagittarius A*). If anything, I think the Reaper's are guilty of Hubris, but it's obvious that no one intended that the Collector base would be reached judging by the fact of:
A) It's location
It's only entry point was the Omega-4 relay, and that had higher levels of encryption to enable safe passage.
C) It was plainly obvious that they did not realise that the Collector's would be suspected.
D) It had base defense set up in the form of the Occuli whose fire power could outmatch most starship designs.

Despite all that, it's obvious that the greatest defense that the Collector's relied on was their invisibility and to be above suspicion, failing that their remoteness. Therefore it would make no sense for the Reapers to elaborately 'trap' it on the off chance someone got lucky, because apparently no one else has because the 'cycle of extinction' has been going on every 50k years for millions of years.

Modifié par Arijharn, 29 mai 2010 - 01:37 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

Vaenier wrote...

I really hope that by destroying the base, those players will suffer heavy losses in the final battle. make it actually mean something please. the survivors would be all happy and one big family, but the renegade player's galaxy will have more alive, and they get an extra mission of dealing with Cerberus.

I'd rather it was balanced albeit in an intelligent way. Like, you can still achieve success with base destroyed albeit with extra effort - and i mean effort, not just hack two more terminals. I mean at one, preferably more extra missions against overwhelming odds. I like the challenge.

On the renegade (base intact) part, it should give you some trouble either with Cerberus messing up (that would be new, lol) or with Cerberus getting a wee bit power hungry.

Actually, I believe that's exactly how they will do in ME3, providing they won't limit the question of the base to a footnote or a different dialogue line.