1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

If the Reapers had any more tricks for the Collector base, why not use them while your arch enemy is on the base?

Fear of the unknown is the worst excuse to destroying something. Its like shooting at an UFO without learning why it is here. Study it, learn from it, and then decide when you have all the facts.

[Mouton_Alpha]

STG wrote...

Destroying the base is right because you have to choose between giving it to space-ww2-germany or not giving it to anyone.

So yeah, poof goes the base.

OH NICE WE FINALLY GOT TO HITLER.

Anyway, on a serious note, thanks for bringing world war 2 up as it gives excellent argument for helping Cerberus.

So, the West (the good guys) fought Hitler, a megalomaniac conqueror who murdered millions. With whom did the Allies ally? With Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin, a megalomaniac conqueror who murdered millions.

[Vaenier]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

STG wrote...

Destroying the base is right because you have to choose between giving it to space-ww2-germany or not giving it to anyone.

So yeah, poof goes the base.

OH NICE WE FINALLY GOT TO HITLER.

Anyway, on a serious note, thanks for bringing world war 2 up as it gives excellent argument for helping Cerberus.

So, the West (the good guys) fought Hitler, a megalomaniac conqueror who murdered millions. With whom did the Allies ally? With Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin, a megalomaniac conqueror who murdered millions.

Win.

Dont forget using German scientists to help finish making the nukes that finaly ended the damn war.

[STG]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

OH NICE WE FINALLY GOT TO HITLER.

Anyway, on a serious note, thanks for bringing world war 2 up as it gives excellent argument for helping Cerberus.

So, the West (the good guys) fought Hitler, a megalomaniac conqueror who murdered millions. With whom did the Allies ally? With Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin, a megalomaniac conqueror who murdered millions.

They allied with Stalin only because I couldn't choose otherwise.

It's a game, I can aford to be an idealist and try to make a utopia. Just like you can have your gray human dominated world if you wish.

Is your choice wrong? Should you be unable to complete the game because of it?

[Mouton_Alpha]

STG wrote...
It's a game, I can aford to be an idealist and try to make a utopia. Just like you can have your gray human dominated world if you wish.

Is your choice wrong? Should you be unable to complete the game because of it?

Hey, it's you who brought real life as an argument

This is, of course, a problem with arguing the topic - we are torn between "it's just a game" and trying to look at the matter more rationally. The fact that Bioware games are relatively mature - and thus more like life - does not help either.

Btw, I chose to blow the base up, albeit my motivation is a bit different.

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Reaper was just that: an embryo. Not fully formed with capabilities. It also died, and not just 'I'm still alive' like the Derilect Reaper.

The 'it affects you before you know it' is a sign that hearing it constantly overrides you, even when you try to fight it. But you still hear it, feel it.*snip*

If this is your counterargument, you're already demonstrating that you're not taking the possibility of danger of researching the Collector Base seriously enough. You dismiss the embryonic reaper could have the abilities of a the derelict reaper as well as assume you will be able to detect the indoctrination signal before it can get to you. You assume you'll be able to track a signal that someone already said could not be detected, and Saren desperately wanted to know all he could about the thing. You also assume the Reapers will have no control over the base now that the Collectors are not on it.

No one knows what a dead embryonic reaper is capable of. The Derelict Reaper was shot by a mass effect accelerator weapon 37 million years ago and it could still affect those aboard.

Not only that, but we also don't know how indoctrination really works. On one hand, the survivors on Eden Prime said they could hear a noise when Sovereign landed. On the other hand, Rana Thanoptis says it's an undetectable signal that is subtle enough that before you realize it's having an effect on you, it's already too late. The only other information she provided is that Sovereign's signal was too strong, that if you spent more time on the ship, that you begin to feel it. How far does a Reaper have to be in order for indoctrination to work? We don't know. Were all the test subjects on Virmire on the ship at some point so that they could be indoctrinated, or were they able to be indoctrinated while on the planet? We don't know.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Oh, certainly. But it might be dangerous is not an effective argument for destroying the Collector Base. Especially since the dangers provided as examples would be Reaper capabilities you'd have to overcome when they arrive regardless.

The fact that it is so dangerous is an effective argument if you don't want to take the risk. That's the same argument I've seen used for why people kill off the Rachni Queen, why they don't divert ships to save the Destiny Ascension, why they choose to destroy the geth. I've seen other reasons beyond just "it's too much a risk" for those decisions, but I'm just pointing out that it's still an argument people make for those decisions.

If a person's Shepard doesn't want to chance it, you can call that Shepard a ****, but he's a cautious one. The risk goes either way. You either take the risk that you'll be able to investigate and research the Collector Base without problems or you take the risk that you will be able to find another way to defeat the Reapers.

And since the base is going to Cerberus, you also risk/trust the organization/give them the benefit of the doubt that they only have responsible intentions for the facility. Whether or not you trust Cerberus is another issue altogether, which is actually more related to this thread, but somehow I got caught up talking more about the base even though I know there's an entirely different thread specifically about that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Reaper was just that: an embryo. Not fully formed with capabilities. It also died, and not just 'I'm still alive' like the Derilect Reaper.

The 'it affects you before you know it' is a sign that hearing it constantly overrides you, even when you try to fight it. But you still hear it, feel it.*snip*

If this is your counterargument, you're already demonstrating that you're not taking the possibility of danger of researching the Collector Base seriously enough. You dismiss the embryonic reaper could have the abilities of a the derelict reaper as well as assume you will be able to detect the indoctrination signal before it can get to you. You assume you'll be able to track a signal that someone already said could not be detected, and Saren desperately wanted to know all he could about the thing. You also assume the Reapers will have no control over the base now that the Collectors are not on it.

No one said you couldn't detect indoctrination. They said you were indoctrinated before you realized it. Since people heard the signals before they were indoctrinated, and indoctrinated builds up over time, the logical inference is that yes, people do hear the signals. They just don't know when they're finally indoctrinated.

Since the Reapers had to use the organic Collector General to use the base (why we see the possessed Collector General hitting buttons), and the Collector General is killed, we have pretty good reason to say that the Reapers don't control the base by other ways.


There is a significant difference between 'not being careful' and 'not buying into inflated and imagined fears.'

No one knows what a dead embryonic reaper is capable of. The Derelict Reaper was shot by a mass effect accelerator weapon 37 million years ago and it could still affect those aboard.

We know what a dead embryonic reaper is not capable of, and that's actions of a living Reaper. The Derilect Reaper was still alive.

Not only that, but we also don't know how indoctrination really works. On one hand, the survivors on Eden Prime said they could hear a noise when Sovereign landed. On the other hand, Rana Thanoptis says it's an undetectable signal that is subtle enough that before you realize it's having an effect on you, it's already too late.

When did Rana say it was undetectable? Since people do detect it, since it can be captured and measured in terms of relative strength, that is an obvious falsehood.

The only other information she provided is that Sovereign's signal was too strong, that if you spent more time on the ship, that you begin to feel it. How far does a Reaper have to be in order for indoctrination to work? We don't know. Were all the test subjects on Virmire on the ship at some point so that they could be indoctrinated, or were they able to be indoctrinated while on the planet? We don't know.

The Salarians you can interrogate in the cells talk about how the signals were pumped in their cells.

The fact that it is so dangerous is an effective argument if you don't want to take the risk. That's the same argument I've seen used for why people kill off the Rachni Queen, why they don't divert ships to save the Destiny Ascension, why they choose to destroy the geth. I've seen other reasons beyond just "it's too much a risk" for those decisions, but I'm just pointing out that it's still an argument people make for those decisions.

You don't understand the key difference?

Killing the Rachni Queen ends the galactic threat of the Rachni forever. They aren't coming back.

Sacrificing the Destiny Ascension allows you to increase your odds against Sovereign, reducing as much as possible the threat of immediate galactic extinction. The threat is resolved.

Destroying the Collector Base because there might be indoctrination dangers does not resolve the danger of indoctrination: the threat of indoctrination is coming back regardless, and the possibility of limited danger now is the only realistic way to mitigate the far greater danger later.

This isn't only a matter of dissonance over the scale of the dangers (Collector Base risk limited, Reaper risk unlimited.) Destroying the Collector Base does not even end the great danger of indoctrination. Keeping the base can.

People who reject the base on the grounds of possible limited danger in the immediate future blind themselves to the fact that the same danger will be far more certain, expansive, and catastrophic in the future.

And since the base is going to Cerberus, you also risk/trust the organization/give them the benefit of the doubt that they only have responsible intentions for the facility. Whether or not you trust Cerberus is another issue altogether, which is actually more related to this thread, but somehow I got caught up talking more about the base even though I know there's an entirely different thread specifically about that.

I don't care if Cerberus has only responsible intentions. I care that Cerberus's intentions benefit the rest of the galaxy as a whole, regardless of how much or selfishly Cerberus benefits. Cerberus

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 mai 2010 - 07:46 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Derilect Reaper was still alive.

Wait, it wasn't. Just some lower functions running for milions of years.

Modifié par Mouton_Alpha, 29 mai 2010 - 08:25 .

[Sajuro]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Derilect Reaper was still alive.

Wait, it wasn't. Just some lower functions running for milions of years.

So it was a veggie reaper?

Modifié par Sajuro, 29 mai 2010 - 08:30 .

[Asheer_Khan]

@Dean.



TiM will NEVER EVER share even a smallest blueprint whit reaper tech (assuming that there is such inside that base) not only whit Aliens but whit Alliance as well.



I still can't forget how he jump on my Shepard for even slightest suggestion to call Alliance forces for help before Horizon.

He want all power ONLY for him and his organization and believe me if this will profit him in any form he will sell humanity, Alliance and whole galaxy to the reapers without blink of an eye only to keep himself perfectly safe.

[Sajuro]

I was under the impression that whatever blue prints were in the base would be imprinted into the mind of the collector general who was killed in either ending, since you know the Reapers wouldn't be so careless. Even if there were blue prints laying around, how is anyone supposed to understand the language?

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snipping*
When did Rana say it was undetectable? Since people do detect it, since it can be captured and measured in terms of relative strength, that is an obvious falsehood.

She says it's undetectable when you talk to her. She says a lot of things about indoctrination.

Honestly, if you want to argue that indoctrination is a threat you can detect and destroy before it's even an issue, you're already not being cautious enough. I could make an argument for how one goes about taking the threat of indoctrination seriously when investigating the base, particularly when paired with the Illusive Man's disregard for human lives to accomplish a task, but I'm not on the side of arguing in favor of keeping the base at the moment.

Like all other major choices in the game, people have several reasons to choose why they took a certain route, ranging from "for the lulz" to metagaming to legitimate thought-out realistic reasons. On the latter end of the spectrum, to say someone is not thinking about it correctly is not one of the better arguments in a debate of two sides. You might not agree with their reasonings, but in this game, the likelihood is low that either choice is going to be wrong.

Back in the other thread about the Collector base, when I was talking about the irrational accidentally working, I wasn't trying to say the choice was truly irrational. It was irrational to you. So unless you're purposely playing the role of devil's advocate, you've placed yourself as being either unwilling or incapable of understanding the other side of the argument. Each reason someone has for destroying the base will not be justified or rational in that respect.

[Astranagant]

Shoddy writing. The idea that cerberus was intended to be some super-important central figure from the start is patently ludicrous to me. I feel quite sure that they just pulled the death/resurrected by cerberus (OH MY GOD THEY'RE BAD GUISE!) thing out of their rear to make ME2 seem more GRIMDARK. One of my favorite quotes from ME1: "Cerberus? I've never heard of it."

Modifié par Astranagant, 29 mai 2010 - 09:47 .

[lovgreno]

The derelict reaper was dead. But "even a dead god can dream" as it was said in the game. That should tell us just how powerfulll and subtle reaper indoctrination realy is. Cerberus was sure that there was no major risk in investigating it. They were wrong, just like they had been many times before considering reaper tech.



If a ancient corpse with ancient technology could still be ripe with indoctrination that couldn't be detected or neutralised by Cerberus experts there are no reason why the modern base a reaper just left shouldn't be even more dangerous. On the contrary the reapers have surely improved their indoctrination methods since the derelict reaper. Harbringer scould win a easy victory by using the indoctrination devices that always are installed in the covert operations of the reapers in the Collector Base. classic reaper warfare, give the organics a tempting bit of cheese that only contains indoctrination but no Deus Ex Machina sollution.



Isn't TIM showing a tendency of a messiah complex by the way? He claims that only Cerberus (wich effectively means himself) can save humanity. He also claims that no one else can understand his motives and methods. Sounds like he have isolated himself from the real world and lives in a dream.

[Asheer_Khan]

Actually Sajuro rised valid question.



Let's assume that there IS some sort reaper tech blueprints in base memory bank, but i seriously doubt that "manual" how to assemble even simple Collector particle beam gun is writen in English.



Right now there are practicly three people somehow able to speak Prothean (what would be logical taking under consideration Collectors origin).

- Shepard (if her knowledge of Cypher is still in her brain after Normandy disaster).

- Liara.

- Shiala.

- And very possible EDI since she is based on reaper technology.



But even that's is not certain, yes EDI managed to data mined some informations from station but those data right now have more "court evidence" value to prove that reaper threat is real than technical value since it would take loooot of time to decoding 1/10 information.



That case is almost similar to drop for example blueprints of modern AEGIS Destroyer in times of Peloponesian Wars writen using modern high technologic English.



No doubt that after some time and lots of "trials and errors" tactic ancients would be able to build such ship but would they guess how to "calibrate" each system making that ship fully functional?, doubtful.



Entire indoctrination factor and our complete LACK of knowledge how that "thing" really work should be more than in off reason to move around anything direct related to reapers like around really angry skunk and honestly implementing any reaper based tech to ships is like asking for more or less... ORDER 66 during final battle whit reaper fleet...

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...
Let's assume that there IS some sort reaper tech blueprints in base memory bank, but i seriously doubt that "manual" how to assemble even simple Collector particle beam gun is writen in English.

We don't necessarily need the actual schematics because the actual hardware, the tools for building these devices, is within the base.

Not only that, but if my history in assembling flat pack furniture is anything to go by, you don't need the schematics to be written in English.

Then again, my computer desk is kind of wobbly.

[Sajuro]

Pacifien wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...
Let's assume that there IS some sort reaper tech blueprints in base memory bank, but i seriously doubt that "manual" how to assemble even simple Collector particle beam gun is writen in English.

We don't necessarily need the actual schematics because the actual hardware, the tools for building these devices, is within the base.

Not only that, but if my history in assembling flat pack furniture is anything to go by, you don't need the schematics to be written in English.

Then again, my computer desk is kind of wobbly.

So then your particle beam would be wobbly and then the Reapers would win! that is assuming that Reaper tech is sold at IKEA

[Sajuro]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Actually Sajuro rised valid question.

Let's assume that there IS some sort reaper tech blueprints in base memory bank, but i seriously doubt that "manual" how to assemble even simple Collector particle beam gun is writen in English.

Right now there are practicly three people somehow able to speak Prothean (what would be logical taking under consideration Collectors origin).
- Shepard (if her knowledge of Cypher is still in her brain after Normandy disaster).
- Liara.
- Shiala.
- And very possible EDI since she is based on reaper technology.

I don't know if Shep would be able to read Prothean, I thought the Cypher was more of allowing her to understand it when it was spoken. Liara might be able to do it, but she mostly specializes in why the protheans vanished.

[Pacifien]

Liara could probably read prothean, especially after having experienced part of the cypher through Shepard. But I doubt the collectors still wrote anything in prothean. They were probably given a basic understanding of how to work the technology of the base as part of their development, no need to write down the instructions anywhere.

[Asheer_Khan]

Still it's necessary to have description what part do what.

You can assemble PC just basing on the look of the component but would he work is completely different question.
During assembling of such PC you need to known if you have correct main processor and if he will be compatible whit motherboard and won't burn out after first activation.
To asses compatibility between processor and motherboard you need to known specifications of of both components - aka manuals.

Then powering up each stuff inside Accu.

-Install too weak accu - risk of faster critical failure of the component is increased because of accu overcharging.
-Install too strong accu - you will burn out every single component because of too high voltage.
And again manual comes pretty handy to check correct power requirement.

And then last critical for PC function component - Graphic card.

-Install too weak GC - she will burn yourself in attempt to compensate lack of necessary memory.
-Install too strong CG for installed Accu - she won't work at full possible capacity because of lacking necessary voltage.

That's why for anything more complicated than dinner table manual whit proper component description is simply MUST BE.

Of course you can assemble Collector particle beam gun just looking at the schematics but not knowing properties of each component risk that this gun will blown up in holders face is about 95% positive.

We don't known that but who known how many Turian scientists died during last two years Tanix cannons test assembly since what we got in game is ready to use (however that calibration problems really put them as questionable weapon to use... unless finally Garrus decide to let EDI worrying about that damn calibrations) guns.

In matter of fact reaper technology is much bigger, darker and lot dangerous "undiscovered country" as was nuclear technology for Los Alamos scientists when they lays foundations for first ever US nuclear reactor.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 29 mai 2010 - 11:58 .

[Arijharn]

Sajuro wrote...

I was under the impression that whatever blue prints were in the base would be imprinted into the mind of the collector general who was killed in either ending, since you know the Reapers wouldn't be so careless. Even if there were blue prints laying around, how is anyone supposed to understand the language?

Not true at all, other wise, how would people know how to read and speak ancient egyptian hieroglyphics (admittedly, not everyone can do this, but egyptologists can!) now since you know, there are no ancient egyptian's anymore. Not only that, but you don't honestly think that Turian's speak English do you? At some point some middle ground was found.

Technical specifications are logical (if complicated), this is why traditionally scientific endeavours may start slow, but rapidly speed up. Someone had to decipher the Prothean relics on Mars because like the Turians, I doubt they were delivered to us in English (or Chinese, etc).

[Sajuro]

Arijharn wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I was under the impression that whatever blue prints were in the base would be imprinted into the mind of the collector general who was killed in either ending, since you know the Reapers wouldn't be so careless. Even if there were blue prints laying around, how is anyone supposed to understand the language?

Not true at all, other wise, how would people know how to read and speak ancient egyptian hieroglyphics (admittedly, not everyone can do this, but egyptologists can!) now since you know, there are no ancient egyptian's anymore. Not only that, but you don't honestly think that Turian's speak English do you? At some point some middle ground was found.

Technical specifications are logical (if complicated), this is why traditionally scientific endeavours may start slow, but rapidly speed up. Someone had to decipher the Prothean relics on Mars because like the Turians, I doubt they were delivered to us in English (or Chinese, etc).

The reason they can translate it is the rosetta stone and documents from the ancient greeks preserved by the arabs. The different races are able to understand eachother because of a translator through the codex.

[Arijharn]

Sajuro wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I was under the impression that whatever blue prints were in the base would be imprinted into the mind of the collector general who was killed in either ending, since you know the Reapers wouldn't be so careless. Even if there were blue prints laying around, how is anyone supposed to understand the language?

Not true at all, other wise, how would people know how to read and speak ancient egyptian hieroglyphics (admittedly, not everyone can do this, but egyptologists can!) now since you know, there are no ancient egyptian's anymore. Not only that, but you don't honestly think that Turian's speak English do you? At some point some middle ground was found.

Technical specifications are logical (if complicated), this is why traditionally scientific endeavours may start slow, but rapidly speed up. Someone had to decipher the Prothean relics on Mars because like the Turians, I doubt they were delivered to us in English (or Chinese, etc).

The reason they can translate it is the rosetta stone and documents from the ancient greeks preserved by the arabs. The different races are able to understand eachother because of a translator through the codex.

You're totally missing the point. How does the translator know what to translate into without someone already working out the common links? How does a translator codex know what the Turian word for water is and translates it into human English? Do you think it magically just happened? Of course not, it was worked out by someone at some time.