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[MrNose]

LPPrince wrote...

Leftnt Sharpe wrote...

I have a feeling that Cerberus is one of those organisations where for every one operation we hear about there is ten others that we don't.

Well, unshackled EDI proves there's only about a dozen at a time.

So while we know of the Lazarus Cell, there's actually 11 we don't know about. lol

I'm unsure as to whether agents and operatives = soldiers.  I don't think so.  In ME1 you kill ALOT of people, but they don't seem crippled.  And of course the Cord-Hislop Aerospace employees all technically work for Cerberus. 

I'm guessing that agents and operatives only indicates Cerberus members who are A) in active project cells (not ones who are just doing little projects like gathering information)  Have some sort of priviledged position.  For instance, the crew of the SR2 works for Cerberus, but I don't know that I would call them all "agents and operatives."

If my suppositions are correct, then Cerberus is likely a very large organization with a very consolidated core base.

[GothamLord]

Alot of people want to jump down Cerberus' throat but they seem to forget that Cerberus was a Black Op of the Alliance and didnt go rogue until the events of ME1. That puts Cerberus operations like Akuza, Cerberus-orchestrated industrial "accident" on Yandoa, Jack's experiment on Pragia and several others still during the time that the Alliance was still running the show. Looking at Kasumi's greybox implies the Alliance has Reaper tech and we know the Alliance got in trouble for AI research long before EDI.

I wouldnt be surprised if Cerberus was still the Alliance's dirty little secret and they arent as *rogue* as they claim. Or atleast TIM has come back and made some deal to work with them as a outside contract source for all the questionable research the Alliance wants to be able to deny.

Modifié par GothamLord, 15 mai 2010 - 12:26 .

[Darkhour]

NKKKK wrote...

Troll Thread

also, Shepard didn't cause as much damage in the first game as you think

You can't call someone a troll and then give them a legitimate reply.

Is calling thread "troll threads" a new fad? Seems like every post I click on the first reply is "troll thread".

[Collider]

Cerberus once being part of the Alliance doesn't factor into my condemnation of them.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Shandepared wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Cerberus has some involvement with the Thorian incident:
-Binthu (UNC: Cerberus, Kahoku) confirmed they were in the possesion of several Creepers, which leads one to wonder what the exact relationshipt between ExoGeni and Cerberus is. ExoGeni may very well be just another front for Cerberus (or be Cerberus funded, or possibly even vice-versa).
-Nodacrux may very well be another Cerberus cell (as Miranda said, members from one cell can't recognise another)

Nodacrux was an Exo-Geni base. Christ, it is stated outright on Feros and on Exo-Geni. If it was linked to Cerberus we'd have known. It isn't though and that's why it is never brought up. Damnit.

Cerberus had nothing to do with the Thorian directly. All we know is that they bought some creepers from the researchers, that's it.

Sure, if that's what you want to believe. Perhaps not directly directly, but they sure were behind it. Which kinda leads to a certain irony in that Saren actually twarted their plans through Shepard.

Shandepared wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

-Chasca  (UNC: Colony of the Dead), which we are led to by a console in the ExoGeni headquarters which already confirms Cerberus involvement, leads us to a bunch of husks and Dragon's Teeth.

Yes, Cerberus is involved with Exo-Geni however Nodacrux was not a Cerberus base.

Given the confirmed relationship between Cerberus and ExoGeni, I'm surprised you'd even try to deny Nodacrux being a Cerberus base. Not everything Cerberus related has their logo spammed all over it.

Shandepared wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

-Trebin (UNC: Missing Survey Team), which cannot be proven as a Cerberus-related planet, once again shows us ExoGeni messing around with Dragon's Teeth and the entire "survey team" (Cell?) getting turned into husks.

 
What does this have to do with Cerberus?

Dragon's Teeth, husks... it's basically Chasca all over again. It has Cerberus written all over it.

Shandepared wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

ExoGeni's method of rapidly colonizing then extracting any artifacts for 'unknown purposes' also sounds very Cerberus. Given all this proof, I wouldn't be surprised if Cerberus providing money for Horizon after the Collector attack also happened through ExoGeni.

Possible.

I'm glad you see this one being possible. ExoGeni also being a Cerberus-related company may be one of the most important cases of where connecting the pretty well hidden dots allows you to see things from a whole 'nother perspective. Cerberus is certainly more competent than most are led to belief.

[GothamLord]

Collider wrote...

Cerberus once being part of the Alliance doesn't factor into my condemnation of them.

but what if they are still part of the Alliance ??    Like section 31 with Star Trek and Starfleet Intelligence

[Collider]

GothamLord wrote...

Collider wrote...

Cerberus once being part of the Alliance doesn't factor into my condemnation of them.

but what if they are still part of the Alliance ??    Like section 31 with Star Trek and Starfleet Intelligence

Doesn't matter - Cerberus is still horrible. The only thing that would change for me is that I'd have a lesser opinion of the Alliance.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since most of Cerberus's worst actions were as part of the Alliance, that should factor in to your opinion of the Alliance, which cultivated it.

It should also factor into your opinion of the Council, which was cultivating strong ties with the Alliance even as the Alliance did so.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mai 2010 - 12:35 .

[Collider]

Shandepared wrote...

Collider wrote...

Doesn't matter - Cerberus is still horrible. The only thing that would change for me is that I'd have a lesser opinion of the Alliance.

Do you think the STG, Spectres, and Council are horrible as well? I'm not asking you to like Cerberus, but if you are going to judge them so harshly then you should judge everyone else by the same criteria.

The thing is, I'm never seen those three entities do the kind of the things that Cerberus does and did. STG may have made the genophage/spread it, but that was an immediately necessary. Aside from Saren, the Spectres don't have appeared to have done much wrong. And the worst thing about the council at most is that they're stubborn and inactive.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Ummm.. how effective Civilian tactics were against Thresher Maws. And I'm pretty sure you do not develop a resistance to Thresher Maw acid by being injected with it.... Thresher Maw acid isn't a disease you can develop a resistance to when it is injected into you.

Ever heard of anti-venom?

Seems unlikely when the beast itself can swallow you wholly. I think Cerberus may have been experimenting with the acid for alternative reasons, such as chemical warfare or some sort of genetic engineering.

[Collider]

Kaiser's idea seem to make much more sense. Anti-venom seems rather useless considering that even trained soldiers are ragdolls to the Thresher Maws.

[GothamLord]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Ummm.. how effective Civilian tactics were against Thresher Maws. And I'm pretty sure you do not develop a resistance to Thresher Maw acid by being injected with it.... Thresher Maw acid isn't a disease you can develop a resistance to when it is injected into you.

Ever heard of anti-venom?

Seems unlikely when the beast itself can swallow you wholly. I think Cerberus may have been experimenting with the acid for alternative reasons, such as chemical warfare or some sort of genetic engineering.

Have to agree on this one.  Most if not all of Cerberus' operations have appeared to have some type of military development in mind.   Biotic super soldiers, Thorian Creeps make great expendable grunt soliders, the Rachni as breedable non-human soliders, even this new Overload DLC  and the talk of the merged Human with Geth hivemind sounds like a military way of having hundreds of drone soliders under a human command for military reasons. 

The experiments with The Thresher Maw vemon was most likely either a bio weapon or some more of super solider program again.

[Dean_the_Young]

Without knowing how the Thresher Maw venom was supposed to do anything and what else was done, it's impossible to tell how successful or useful the experiments were. For all we know, it was a wild success: Toombs may well be a relative superman due to his happenings, similar to how the torture did make Jack into a super-biotic. It certainly didn't cripple him.



We can't say most of Cerberus operations are military development (outside a loose definition of what is military) because we don't know half of what goes on. We do know that they have a number of profitable front companies that provide them with not-quite limitless funding, from the Lazarus Project to the Normandy and everything else.



Without knowing what is happening, Overlord DLC remains speculation.

[Collider]

Shandepared wrote...

Collider wrote...

The thing is, I'm never seen those three entities do the kind of the things that Cerberus does and did.

 
No, they do much worse acts on much larger scales.

Uh huh. Because experimenting on children, trying to mind control, and unleashing Thresher Maws on innocent soldiers is totally on their level.

[GothamLord]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Without knowing how the Thresher Maw venom was supposed to do anything and what else was done, it's impossible to tell how successful or useful the experiments were. For all we know, it was a wild success: Toombs may well be a relative superman due to his happenings, similar to how the torture did make Jack into a super-biotic. It certainly didn't cripple him.

We can't say most of Cerberus operations are military development (outside a loose definition of what is military) because we don't know half of what goes on. We do know that they have a number of profitable front companies that provide them with not-quite limitless funding, from the Lazarus Project to the Normandy and everything else.

Without knowing what is happening, Overlord DLC remains speculation.

Its a loose definition of military perhaps, but almost all of the Ceberus operations can easily be seen from a military research point of view. As Ceberus and TIM seem to like to remind us, they are their for the betterment of and to preserve humanity. That means being able to kick everyone elses ass.  

When you're getting backdoor kickbacks from the Alliance I'm sure your funding helps to along with all those front companies.

[GothamLord]

Collider wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Collider wrote...

The thing is, I'm never seen those three entities do the kind of the things that Cerberus does and did.

 
No, they do much worse acts on much larger scales.

Uh huh. Because experimenting on children, trying to mind control, and unleashing Thresher Maws on innocent soldiers is totally on their level.

Nah.  Nearly killing off entire species is better for them.   A couple hundred at a time is to small scale to bother wither.     Having the Krogan wipe on the Rachni, then basically neutering the Krogan... or leaving the Quarian people to be wiped out when they have the war with the Geth break out.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shandepared wrote...

Collider wrote...

The thing is, I'm never seen those three entities do the kind of the things that Cerberus does and did.

 
No, they do much worse acts on much larger scales.

In a sense, Collider is correct: we don't see much of what anyone else does. The ME universe is rather fixated on Cerberus, and of that primarily of what we stumble across without any reference for anything else.

We do know that Spectres, sanctioned by the highest authority in the galaxy, regularly abuse their immunity to murder, cheat, steal, and many more things. The C-SEC commander calls them widly corrupt, and choices to Shepard alone in a matter of monthes include genocide, killing an entire colony, assassinating political leaders/candidates, brutalizing arrested suspects.

And Shepard's the good guy.

Strictly speaking, we know less about the STG. We know they plan and prepare pre-emptive attacks on everyone, including crashing stations and the like in the opening shots. And we know they have twice cast the gentle genocide of the genophage on the Krogan: once to beat them while at war, and then again when at peace. That's two counts of acts of genocidal intent, and it's implied that they have another case ready for humans if need be.

So the STG have attempted genocide of entire species twice and actively maintain the ability to do so, the Spectres have had the opportunity at least once and Cerberus...

[Pacifien]

I'm sure every culture has their evil scientists of evil organizations disguised as brilliant scientists of moderately progressive organizations. Cerberus keeps getting caught, though. Then it's all "oh no, that was a 'rogue cell.' We're the good cell. Go humanity."

And they suck at following the scientific principle. Nevermind whatever valuable research they're managing, that just offends me as a scientist.

[Dean_the_Young]

GothamLord wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Without knowing how the Thresher Maw venom was supposed to do anything and what else was done, it's impossible to tell how successful or useful the experiments were. For all we know, it was a wild success: Toombs may well be a relative superman due to his happenings, similar to how the torture did make Jack into a super-biotic. It certainly didn't cripple him.

We can't say most of Cerberus operations are military development (outside a loose definition of what is military) because we don't know half of what goes on. We do know that they have a number of profitable front companies that provide them with not-quite limitless funding, from the Lazarus Project to the Normandy and everything else.

Without knowing what is happening, Overlord DLC remains speculation.

Its a loose definition of military perhaps, but almost all of the Ceberus operations can easily be seen from a military research point of view. As Ceberus and TIM seem to like to remind us, they are their for the betterment of and to preserve humanity. That means being able to kick everyone elses ass.  

When you're getting backdoor kickbacks from the Alliance I'm sure your funding helps to along with all those front companies.

Oh, military is undisputably a part of it. But it's not the only part.

A civlization can't be strong without good medicine, for example: Cerberus pioneered the Lazarus project, which did bring back Shepard and may have been involved with that Cerberus News story about the President. Was that a military development?

Fields Cerberus would be interested in advancing besides medicine would also include computers, electronics, ship building, signals, and so on. That most things have military applications does not mean they are military, per see, since militaries actively seek ways to use everything possible... including music and entertainment media.

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

Collider wrote...

Doesn't matter - Cerberus is still horrible. The only thing that would change for me is that I'd have a lesser opinion of the Alliance.

Do you think the STG, Spectres, and Council are horrible as well? I'm not asking you to like Cerberus, but if you are going to judge them so harshly then you should judge everyone else by the same criteria.

If they commit such atrocities? yes. I thought Saren was a monster for what he did before he pulled a sarah palin and went rogue. If you found out that the council was actively sanctioning experiments on turning people into husks, I'd damn well burst into their chambers and demand answers. The same goes with the STG

[Kaiser Shepard]

Don't forget that the rapid krogan uplifting and the subsequent Genophage were set in motion by Sovereign, ironically leading to the destruction of a species suitable to be turned into a Reaper. I can't say these salarians (and turians) were paragons, but they had to do something.



None of Cerberus' experiments until Project Lazarus were done for the greater good, and even that one was done with a personal motive.



Also, the quarians got what they deserved.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

I'm sure every culture has their evil scientists of evil organizations disguised as brilliant scientists of moderately progressive organizations. Cerberus keeps getting caught, though. Then it's all "oh no, that was a 'rogue cell.' We're the good cell. Go humanity."

Besides Jack's (which was revealed in the course of the mission), I'm not aware of any other rogue cell excuses. Even Shepard's possible conclusion in ME2 isn't necessarily rogue: Shepard set out with a mission (kill the Collectors) and did that. TIM trying to change it mid-mission doesn't mean Shepard renenged on what he/she agreed to set out to do.

And they suck at following the scientific principle. Nevermind whatever valuable research they're managing, that just offends me as a scientist.

That's a bigger issue, because it turns them from 'evil-selfjustifying' to 'pointless stupid evil'.

Of course, we don't know how the ME1 experiments were conducted. The Rachni tries failed because they underestimated Rachni intelligence, but we don't know how they were going about the supersoldier tests. Maybe they were scientificly done. We were never told.