1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Problem is, those "human interests" can be defined in almost any way and he is just one man.

Hell, even being  converted into a Reaper is "ascension". A good thing, yes?

I think it is unlikely that he'll decide humanity should become Reapers.

Make a human reaper to advance their interests in the galaxy after the Reapers are gone, afterall who's going to mess with a reaper?

[STG]

Sajuro wrote...
Make a human reaper to advance their interests in the galaxy after the Reapers are gone, afterall who's going to mess with a reaper?

Shepard? 

[lovgreno]

STG wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
Make a human reaper to advance their interests in the galaxy after the Reapers are gone, afterall who's going to mess with a reaper?

Shepard? 

Yeah it's usualy Shepards job to clean up Cerberus mess.

[Skyblade012]

lovgreno wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...
I don't think many people question the sole idea of studying the tech - just the idea of Cerberus doing it.

True, what little we know about them isn't very convincing.

I very much question studying the tech.  What would it get us?  The ability to process organic life down into a raw form that can be used as a building material, at a rate of millions or billions of lives per ship.  Wonderfully worthwhile technology there.  What else do we expect to get besides the construction method?  Weapons?  We got those from the wreckage already.  Armor?  That would be even easier to get from the wreckage than weapons, assuming our own diamond armor isn't better than human genetic material armor.  Seriously, there is very little to gain there that we haven't either gotten already or could get by studying the wreckage.

I'd be more interested in studying the wreckage of the alien ships circling the station.  Granted, the reliance on Mass Effect technology would make them all follow similar technological paths, and Reaper extermination would keep them from getting too advanced, but I'd guess there are a fair number of ingenious little doodads amidst that million year old ship cemetary.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Shandepared wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Unlikely - though not impossible, see Saren - but the point is he can decide anything he wants.

Saren was being indoctrinated by Sovereign.

Well, there is that small detail yes.

But the main point of my argument was that Tim can interpret the advancement any way he wishes. Might decide that it is in the interest of humanity to scuttle the Systems Alliance and take full control of humanity with Cerberus. Or try to commit genocide on an alien race or two. Or a whole range of qestionable activities.

[lovgreno]

Good points Skyblade012.



I didn't think of the debris field, there could be interesting things there. Then again most of it is probably junk and a bit too dangerous to salvage.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Skyblade012 wrote...
I very much question studying the tech.  What would it get us?  The ability to process organic life down into a raw form that can be used as a building material, at a rate of millions or billions of lives per ship.  Wonderfully worthwhile technology there.  What else do we expect to get besides the construction method?  Weapons?  We got those from the wreckage already.  Armor?  That would be even easier to get from the wreckage than weapons, assuming our own diamond armor isn't better than human genetic material armor.  Seriously, there is very little to gain there that we haven't either gotten already or could get by studying the wreckage.

Understanding of Reaper computer systems. Reaper's physical structure, and it's weak spots, where to shoot them for maximum damage. Reaper's full capabilities. Way to interfere with/stop/reverse indoctrination. Way to destroy husks easily, even remotely, or taking control of them. Way to disrupt Reaper communication. Way to permanently disable Citadel's relay function. Possibly locating other Reaper failsave schemes in the galaxy. Proof that even the Turian councillor would not be able to dismiss without eating his own eyes first.

Also, you get way more data from studying intact equipment instead of wreckage - Thanix cannon is just a peashooter, we could replicate - possibly - the Reaper's main guns.

All in all, the possiblities are nigh limitless and even theoretical knowledge is power.

[Mouton_Alpha]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
So the assumption is that they are inept.

I don't know if the writers intentionally wanted to give this impression or not.

Lazy writing, imo, same with the council. Council/Cerberus failures/lack of cooperation gives more mission ideas and serves as a justification why is Shepard's team working alone. Having a supportive Council and a very competent Cerberus would require a lot of intelligent justification for why can't Council/Cerberus solve all the trouble by themselves.

[lovgreno]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
So the assumption is that they are inept.

I don't know if the writers intentionally wanted to give this impression or not.

Lazy writing, imo, same with the council. Council/Cerberus failures/lack of cooperation gives more mission ideas and serves as a justification why is Shepard's team working alone. Having a supportive Council and a very competent Cerberus would require a lot of intelligent justification for why can't Council/Cerberus solve all the trouble by themselves.

I agree. I don't think the writers planned to make Cerberus look like idiots. I mean it wouldn't make any sense to have a organisation full of fail as the moraly questionable plot device. Still it's kind of hard to not noticing that Cerberus projects almost always ends with husks or boom. And there is a VI on the Derelict Reaper that congratulates the workers for five days without a work related death...

[Sajuro]

lovgreno wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
So the assumption is that they are inept.

I don't know if the writers intentionally wanted to give this impression or not.

Lazy writing, imo, same with the council. Council/Cerberus failures/lack of cooperation gives more mission ideas and serves as a justification why is Shepard's team working alone. Having a supportive Council and a very competent Cerberus would require a lot of intelligent justification for why can't Council/Cerberus solve all the trouble by themselves.

I agree. I don't think the writers planned to make Cerberus look like idiots. I mean it wouldn't make any sense to have a organisation full of fail as the moraly questionable plot device. Still it's kind of hard to not noticing that Cerberus projects almost always ends with husks or boom. And there is a VI on the Derelict Reaper that congratulates the workers for five days without a work related death...

They probably did it on purpose in the first game since Cerb were cookie cutter evil people. Then ME2 came around and some one suggested siding with Cerberus, which led to them being smartened up with such tech and upgrades. The VI days since death count achieves the same sense of 'Lul fail'  that all the failed Cerberus projects you've come across.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
So the assumption is that they are inept.

I don't know if the writers intentionally wanted to give this impression or not.

Lazy writing, imo, same with the council. Council/Cerberus failures/lack of cooperation gives more mission ideas and serves as a justification why is Shepard's team working alone. Having a supportive Council and a very competent Cerberus would require a lot of intelligent justification for why can't Council/Cerberus solve all the trouble by themselves.

I agree. I don't think the writers planned to make Cerberus look like idiots. I mean it wouldn't make any sense to have a organisation full of fail as the moraly questionable plot device. Still it's kind of hard to not noticing that Cerberus projects almost always ends with husks or boom. And there is a VI on the Derelict Reaper that congratulates the workers for five days without a work related death...

They probably did it on purpose in the first game since Cerb were cookie cutter evil people. Then ME2 came around and some one suggested siding with Cerberus, which led to them being smartened up with such tech and upgrades. The VI days since death count achieves the same sense of 'Lul fail'  that all the failed Cerberus projects you've come across.

Consider just about any work of fiction and most people this side of Sherlock Holmes look like idiots: failures and treacheries and sabatoge make for dramatic effect. Take Star Wars for how many times the Rebellion was compromised (every movie). Or all those crime movies in which criminals make entirely over-complicated plots, and then get away with them.

It's the nature of drama to have have as many failures as successes in the name of drama.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's the nature of drama to have have as many failures as successes in the name of drama.

No arguments there. But they can be made in a much more plausible way than Reaper IFF Cerberus mission fiasco or Council dumb stubborness.

[Sajuro]

Are the failures usually so spectacular? The Rebellion being compromised was usually because of the Empire instead of their own failures. The only real treachery that the Rebellion encountered (in the movies) was Lando which was because he was promised that Cloud City would be left alone and he flipped to the Rebels right after Vader gave him the finger.



Cerberus' failures didn't cause drama for me in the first game. In the second game the only drama they caused was "they were indoctrinated -.- guess I'm going to go fight husks now" Not the heightening of tension. The good drama was in the suicide mission during the cut scenes where I was freaking out over whether I got someone killed or not.

[Dean_the_Young]

What's unfeasible about the Reaper IFF? They thought it was dead and had little time to find the IFF, it wasn't, and it fit in with the Cthulu horror theme of the Reapers.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 juin 2010 - 11:56 .

[Sajuro]

Actually it was dead, but that didn't keep it from indoctrinating the hell out of Cerb. It wasn't unfeasible to get the Reaper IFF, just not all that surprising that they all died.

[Dean_the_Young]

It was mostly dead. Dreaming, if you will.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What's unfeasible about the Reaper IFF? They thought it was dead and had little time to find the IFF, it wasn't, and it fit in with the Cthulu horror theme of the Reapers.

Cerberus acknowledged Reapers as the most serious threat. They studied them extensively. They had access to accounts of what happened on Virmire, what happened with Saren and Benezia and knew about indoctrination from multiple reports. They aslo knew about husks and how they are made.

And yet they went into the dead Reaper like some goddamn cluless schooltrip simply because it made an easy premise for a mission, drama and chtulhu horror. Point is, better writing could provide said mission, drama and chtulhu horror WITHOUT making Cebrerus look like incompetent idiots.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What's unfeasible about the Reaper IFF? They thought it was dead and had little time to find the IFF, it wasn't, and it fit in with the Cthulu horror theme of the Reapers.

Cerberus acknowledged Reapers as the most serious threat. They studied them extensively. They had access to accounts of what happened on Virmire, what happened with Saren and Benezia and knew about indoctrination from multiple reports. They aslo knew about husks and how they are made.

And yet they went into the dead Reaper like some goddamn cluless schooltrip simply because it made an easy premise for a mission, drama and chtulhu horror. Point is, better writing could provide said mission, drama and chtulhu horror WITHOUT making Cebrerus look like incompetent idiots.

They also needed a Reaper IFF and were on a general time limit, remember?

Why should people expect a Reaper that's been inactive for millenia to still be able to indoctrinate? Sovereign did't indoctrinate when it was destroyed (as far as we know).

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 juin 2010 - 01:10 .

[prizm123]

Sovereign wasn't as intact as the derelict reaper was at the end of ME1, perhaps there is just a portion of the reaper that indoctrinates at what we would consider a subconcious level if most of the superstructure were intact? sort of like how different parts of a brain control different functions, and since Sovereign was splattered all over the place and this one wasnt.....

[Mouton_Alpha]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
They also needed a Reaper IFF and were on a general time limit, remember?

Why should people expect a Reaper that's been inactive for millenia to still be able to indoctrinate? Sovereign did't indoctrinate when it was destroyed (as far as we know).

We are discussing competence of Cerberus. A competent team would be a)extra careful b)consider data it already has.

They were Reaper specialists that gathered every scrap of data about Reapers. "Hmmm, I feel weird and hear whispers, perhaps it has something to do with all those reports from about Shepard's endavours I read? Also, I am a well paid scientist with a brilliant mind so perhaps I could make some connections here, hmmmm!".

They could rotate the teams in and out of the Reaper so that the indoctrination wouldn't have time to work, use remote controlled mechs to cover more ground etc.

[Sajuro]

To the scientist's credit, the lead guy seemed to be a lost cause as soon as he found the artifact of doom. The others didn't notice until they started to share memories.

[lovgreno]

Shandepared wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

But the main point of my argument was that Tim can interpret the advancement any way he wishes. Might decide that it is in the interest of humanity to scuttle the Systems Alliance and take full control of humanity with Cerberus. Or try to commit genocide on an alien race or two. Or a whole range of qestionable activities.

None of which particularly bother me as long as he can do it smartly and to humanity's benefit.

He is just a man who makes misstakes like everyone else. TIM is sure he can do things smartly and to his own very personal definiton of humanitys benefit but when he inevitably makes the wrong choice without realising it (only human, not the messiah) there is no one that can tell him so because he have isolated himself.
TIM: "Do not try to understand my motives Shepard". "Cerberus is humanity!".

Modifié par lovgreno, 02 juin 2010 - 06:06 .