1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

GothamLord wrote...

Collider wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Collider wrote...

The thing is, I'm never seen those three entities do the kind of the things that Cerberus does and did.

 
No, they do much worse acts on much larger scales.

Uh huh. Because experimenting on children, trying to mind control, and unleashing Thresher Maws on innocent soldiers is totally on their level.

Nah.  Nearly killing off entire species is better for them.   A couple hundred at a time is to small scale to bother wither.     Having the Krogan wipe on the Rachni, then basically neutering the Krogan... or leaving the Quarian people to be wiped out when they have the war with the Geth break out.

The genophage was absolutely necessary - the Krogan were going to overrun the galaxy. They did not kill off the Krogan species, they made reproduction more difficult. As for Rachni, again, was needed because the Rachni were going to overrun the galaxy. The Council not helping the Quarians is not the same as either of those. 

[OverlordNexas]

Sure the Salarians neutered an entire species, but at least it worked. If Cerberus had been in charge of the Genophage they probably would have ended up sterilizing humanity on accident.

[GothamLord]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, the quarians got what they deserved.

With that attitude the human race deserves whats coming to us with the coming Reaper invasion. Do you believe the Reapers are actually right in wanting to erase us from existance??

[Dean_the_Young]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Don't forget that the rapid krogan uplifting and the subsequent Genophage were set in motion by Sovereign, ironically leading to the destruction of a species suitable to be turned into a Reaper. I can't say these salarians (and turians) were paragons, but they had to do something.

Which is really only agreeing that inhumane actions can be justified if you agree with the reason behind it: it isn't the action, but the motive. Once you have agreed with that, the rest is bickering about what's an acceptible reason.

The choice of the genophage certainly never had anything to do with Sovereign or the Reapers.

None of Cerberus' experiments until Project Lazarus were done for the greater good, and even that one was done with a personal motive.

All the projects upto Lazarus were done for the same reason as Lazarus: for the preservation and advancement of humanity. They didn't change their minds or mission opperandi before resurrecting Shepard.

Succeding in controlling the Rachni would have been a boon for the greater good of humanity. Successfuly creating super soldiers would have been for the greater good of humanity. Horrific as it was, even what occured to Jack was goood for humanity in the end.

Also, the quarians got what they deserved.

It's good to know that you feel it's perfectly justified to murder men, women, and children for decisions they did not make.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mai 2010 - 01:28 .

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Besides Jack's (which was revealed in the course of the mission), I'm not aware of any other rogue cell excuses.

If you believe Admiral Kahoku, the Cerberus cell(s) you find in ME1 are also rogue cells. That's only if you believe him, so if you don't, let's just call this argument moot.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Of course, we don't know how the ME1 experiments were conducted. The Rachni tries failed because they underestimated Rachni intelligence, but we don't know how they were going about the supersoldier tests. Maybe they were scientificly done. We were never told.

Eh. Chasca, Edolus, and Akuze didn't seem that experimentally sound.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Pacifien wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Besides Jack's (which was revealed in the course of the mission), I'm not aware of any other rogue cell excuses.[/quote]
If you believe Admiral Kahoku, the Cerberus cell(s) you find in ME1 are also rogue cells. That's only if you believe him, so if you don't, let's just call this argument moot.[/quote]Kohaku is referring to Cerberus as a whole being a rogue part of the Alliance: they are not rogue to Cerberus.

Jack, however, was a case in which the cell falsified reports to TIM, and the recordings in her loyalty mission were open that they expected to be shut down if TIM found out but that if they got results they'd be in the clear.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Of course, we don't know how the ME1 experiments were conducted. The Rachni tries failed because they underestimated Rachni intelligence, but we don't know how they were going about the supersoldier tests. Maybe they were scientificly done. We were never told.[/quote]
Eh. Chasca, Edolus, and Akuze didn't seem that experimentally sound.[/quote]Without knowing how they were done or what the exact goals were, we can't say that they weren't sound or effective. We simply don't know what their intended results were and why they were aiming for those, nor do we know what they had done up to that point we shot down the doors.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mai 2010 - 01:35 .

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
We simply don't know what their intended results were and why they were aiming for those, nor do we know what they had done up to that point we shot down the doors.

People ending up dead or psychologically scarred for life brings me back to, again, a scientific method that offends me.

[Dean_the_Young]

True. Which goes back to pointless-evil. Which offends me as well, but more for literary reasons.

Then again, I don't expect to read a datapad in ME1 going 'tests on monkeys promising, moving to final stage...'
For one thing, there weren't datapads in ME1.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mai 2010 - 01:41 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

GothamLord wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, the quarians got what they deserved.

With that attitude the human race deserves whats coming to us with the coming Reaper invasion. Do you believe the Reapers are actually right in wanting to erase us from existance??

I wouldn't be surprised if BioWare managed to turn us into believing that, but as of now: no. The quarians simply messed up, multiple times even: first by allowing the geth to become sentient, then by try to deactivate a sentient race for no good reason. They crossed the line and the Council was wise not to step in for them.

Without their actions, Sovereign and Saren wouldn't even have made it as far as they did. Sure, the Heretics chose their own fate, but the quarians are still indirectly responsible.

Then, about 300 years later, they have the guts to still hold a grudge against them for their own actions, and it looks like they are on the verge of committing another grave mistake...

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 15 mai 2010 - 01:42 .

[GothamLord]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, the quarians got what they deserved.

With that attitude the human race deserves whats coming to us with the coming Reaper invasion. Do you believe the Reapers are actually right in wanting to erase us from existance??

I wouldn't be surprised if BioWare managed to turn us into believing that, but as of now: no. The quarians simply messed up, multiple times even: first by allowing the geth to become sentient, then by try to deactivate a sentient race for no good reason. They crossed the line and the Council was wise not to step in for them.

And no other race has messed up since its time either in the Council or atleast holding a Embassy??  I dont see how its okay to turn your back on a race like the Quarians in a time of crisis.  Sure the Quarians may have been wrong to try and shut down the Geth but its okay on the other side of the coin for the Geth to butcher the entire Quarian homeworld and take it over?? 

Without their actions, Sovereign and Saren wouldn't even have made it as far as they did. Sure, the Heretics chose their own fate, but the quarians are still indirectly responsible.

Not really fair to blame the Quarian for the Sovereign situation as it wasnt something that could have been forsee to happen.

Then, about 300 years later, they have the guts to still hold a grudge against them for their own actions, and it looks like they are on the verge of committing another grave mistake...

Hey look at human nature and holding grudges on things like in the middle east for hundreds of years.  Cant knock them for something we do ourselves. 

[OverlordNexas]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, the quarians got what they deserved.

With that attitude the human race deserves whats coming to us with the coming Reaper invasion. Do you believe the Reapers are actually right in wanting to erase us from existance??

I wouldn't be surprised if BioWare managed to turn us into believing that, but as of now: no. The quarians simply messed up, multiple times even: first by allowing the geth to become sentient, then by try to deactivate a sentient race for no good reason. They crossed the line and the Council was wise not to step in for them.

Without their actions, Sovereign and Saren wouldn't even have made it as far as they did. Sure, the Heretics chose their own fate, but the quarians are still indirectly responsible.

Then, about 300 years later, they have the guts to still hold a grudge against them for their own actions, and it looks like they are on the verge of committing another grave mistake...

Okay not to get too off topic here, but the Quarians did have a good reason to shut down the Geth. They were ILLEGAL. How do you think the council would have reacted to that? Best case scenario, they get kicked off the Citadel and are forced to become isolationist. Worst case scenario, the Turian fleet starts raining fire on their asses.

[Jackal904]

NKKKK wrote...

Troll Thread

also, Shepard didn't cause as much damage in the first game as you think

How the hell is this a troll thread? If anyone is a troll it's you.

Anyway. My reason for why Shepard was able to foil the plans of so many Cerberus cells, is because he is Commander Shepard. No other reason is required.

[Sajuro]

OverlordNexas wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, the quarians got what they deserved.

With that attitude the human race deserves whats coming to us with the coming Reaper invasion. Do you believe the Reapers are actually right in wanting to erase us from existance??

I wouldn't be surprised if BioWare managed to turn us into believing that, but as of now: no. The quarians simply messed up, multiple times even: first by allowing the geth to become sentient, then by try to deactivate a sentient race for no good reason. They crossed the line and the Council was wise not to step in for them.

Without their actions, Sovereign and Saren wouldn't even have made it as far as they did. Sure, the Heretics chose their own fate, but the quarians are still indirectly responsible.

Then, about 300 years later, they have the guts to still hold a grudge against them for their own actions, and it looks like they are on the verge of committing another grave mistake...

Okay not to get too off topic here, but the Quarians did have a good reason to shut down the Geth. They were ILLEGAL. How do you think the council would have reacted to that? Best case scenario, they get kicked off the Citadel and are forced to become isolationist. Worst case scenario, the Turian fleet starts raining fire on their asses.

And then the quarians get a face full of genophage

[Vaenier]

Cerberus Accomplishments: Spent 4 billion credits to ressurect one single person. Built a sinlge highly overpriced and inefficient ship.
Cerberus Failures: Thorian Creepers. Threshermaw attack. Threshermaw again. Husks. more husks. attacked Quarians. Spends millions of credits on personal grudges. wants to smoothy people. derelict Reaper. PR campaign. Torturing kids for fun. etc...

If I had a choice between Cerberus and a rock, I would pick the rock...

Modifié par Vaenier, 15 mai 2010 - 02:18 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

GothamLord wrote...

And no other race has messed up since its time either in the Council or atleast holding a Embassy??  I dont see how its okay to turn your back on a race like the Quarians in a time of crisis.  Sure the Quarians may have been wrong to try and shut down the Geth but its okay on the other side of the coin for the Geth to butcher the entire Quarian homeworld and take it over?? 

Not that badly, no. I can see Cerberus doing something just as stupid in the near future, but that's another story. The Council was right to shun the quarians: not only did the quarians break one of those laws that practically speaks for itself, but it would've caused the Council races more harm than it was worth to help the quarians against an unknown enemy.

GothamLord wrote...

Without their actions, Sovereign and Saren wouldn't even have made it as far as they did. Sure, the Heretics chose their own fate, but the quarians are still indirectly responsible.

Not really fair to blame the Quarian for the Sovereign situation as it wasnt something that could have been forsee to happen.

True enough. I was just stating the facts, though.

GothamLord wrote...

Then, about 300 years later, they have the guts to still hold a grudge against them for their own actions, and it looks like they are on the verge of committing another grave mistake...

Hey look at human nature and holding grudges on things like in the middle east for hundreds of years.  Cant knock them for something we do ourselves. 

The were directly responsible for their own mistake: they should've simply moved on and try to settle somewhere else. In those 300-ish years their immunity-systems could probably have adapted to their new home, especially if they'd try to 'terraform' it a little to hold Rannoch's native flora.

Also, it appears the geth are willing to "forgive" their creators. The quarians could've also tried to give the geth what they wanted, which would be either (or both) culture and purpose.

OverlordNexas wrote...

Okay not to get too off topic here, but the Quarians did have a good reason to shut down the Geth. They were ILLEGAL. How do you think the council would have reacted to that? Best case scenario, they get kicked off the Citadel and are forced to become isolationist. Worst case scenario, the Turian fleet starts raining fire on their asses.

From a rather shallow perspective, yes. But not every mistake can be solved by simply doing the opposite, especially is said opposite is force or genocide. They shoud at least have tried to converse with the geth instead of what they did. If at the end of the day the geth simply looked up to their creators and were still willing to work for, or at least alongside the quarians, I'm sure the Council would've turned a blind eye: just look at how the illegal substance known as medigel worked out.

Discussions like these are probably why there was such a law in the first place, to make sure AI never because more that theory.

Sajuro wrote...

And then the quarians get a face full of genophage

Obviously, because quarians themselves are really dangerous...

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 15 mai 2010 - 02:21 .

[Vaenier]

Why are all AIs in Mass effect automatically assumed to be evil? They cant be that stupid... *thinks about the swiss cheese of plot holes that is Mass Effect...* nevermind...

[Kaiser Shepard]

Vaenier wrote...

Why are all AIs in Mass effect automatically assumed to be evil? They cant be that stupid... *thinks about the swiss cheese of plot holes that is Mass Effect...* nevermind...

Fear of the unknown + the possibility of them actually wanting to wipe out organics + empirical arguments

[Zulu_DFA]

TIM's commodity is intelligence.
TIM's currency is human lives.

TIM gets what he wants at the price he can afford.
Now, call him evil if you are that narrow-minded. But don't call him ineffective, because this isn't true.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 mai 2010 - 02:41 .

[crimzontearz]

Sajuro wrote...

This supposed terrorist group is repeatedly interrupted by Shepard throughout the first game and Zaeed has killed more than he can remember. So why does such a organization get foiled by a squad of three people and Shepard has basically wiped out several cells (assuming that each base contains a seperate cell) over the course of ME1.

Hell, the only thing they have succeeded at in the past 2-3 years was resurrecting Shepard and even that backfired on them if you destroyed the collector base and gave the data from that Cerberus operative to the Alliance.

because Cerberus is part of the Alliance.....

[OverlordNexas]

crimzontearz wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

This supposed terrorist group is repeatedly interrupted by Shepard throughout the first game and Zaeed has killed more than he can remember. So why does such a organization get foiled by a squad of three people and Shepard has basically wiped out several cells (assuming that each base contains a seperate cell) over the course of ME1.

Hell, the only thing they have succeeded at in the past 2-3 years was resurrecting Shepard and even that backfired on them if you destroyed the collector base and gave the data from that Cerberus operative to the Alliance.

because Cerberus is part of the Alliance.....

Not sure how that explains Cerberus's incompetence.

[GothamLord]

Another thought on the issue, as Cerberus is doing what some call cruel or insane experiments, and what do list all the failures. I think Thomas Edison quotes should decorate Cerberus bases. I am not discouraged because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward . Or I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work

[crimzontearz]

OverlordNexas wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

This supposed terrorist group is repeatedly interrupted by Shepard throughout the first game and Zaeed has killed more than he can remember. So why does such a organization get foiled by a squad of three people and Shepard has basically wiped out several cells (assuming that each base contains a seperate cell) over the course of ME1.

Hell, the only thing they have succeeded at in the past 2-3 years was resurrecting Shepard and even that backfired on them if you destroyed the collector base and gave the data from that Cerberus operative to the Alliance.

because Cerberus is part of the Alliance.....

Not sure how that explains Cerberus's incompetence.

Shepard is the first human spectre, humanity needs him, an Alliance black ops (and trust me at this point that is the explanation that makes the most sense) is NOT going to kill off the ONE human spectre even if he killing off some of the minor cells (it was implied in the expanded universe that the damage was not that great)

Likewise Humanity needs Shepard but he is dead, Cerberus needs to bring him back, they are gonna do it even at the risk of him running back to the Alliance which Cerberus works for anyway

it is only "apparent" ineptitude

Modifié par crimzontearz, 15 mai 2010 - 03:18 .

[Cydrone]

by all accounts Cerberus went rogue, and TIM certainly doesnt seem to be your typical Alliance handler. (Unless they're just SO black-ops it transcends all Alliance protocol)

But we can't really judge their ineptitude without knowing their full operations.
From what I see, being able to pull off a muchly expensive breakthrough like Lazarus without falling flat DESPITE aforementioned setbacks shows they're much less inept than it seems.

TIM assuredly has resources we've yet to see, and from what we see has great reach (and flexibility, har har)

Modifié par Cydrone, 15 mai 2010 - 03:18 .

[OverlordNexas]

crimzontearz wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

This supposed terrorist group is repeatedly interrupted by Shepard throughout the first game and Zaeed has killed more than he can remember. So why does such a organization get foiled by a squad of three people and Shepard has basically wiped out several cells (assuming that each base contains a seperate cell) over the course of ME1.

Hell, the only thing they have succeeded at in the past 2-3 years was resurrecting Shepard and even that backfired on them if you destroyed the collector base and gave the data from that Cerberus operative to the Alliance.

because Cerberus is part of the Alliance.....

Not sure how that explains Cerberus's incompetence.

Shepard is the first spectre, humanity needs him, an Alliance black ops (and trust me at this point that is the explanation that makes the most sense) is NOT going to kill off the ONE human spectre even if he killing off some of the minor cells (it was implied in the expanded universe that the damage was not that great)

Likewise Humanity needs Shepard but he is dead, Cerberus needs to bring him back, they are gonna do it even at the risk of him running back to the Alliance which Cerberus works for anyway

it is only "apparent" ineptitude

That doesn't explain how every single one their little science projects ends up with everyone dead. I doubt Cerberus let all those Rachni escape to protect Shepard.