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[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It's the People vs the Administration, not Humanity vs the Administration.

The Council is inherently at fault because it is built upon a system of inequality, and a human-dominant galactic government will be at fault for the same reason.

Of course it's all just circumstantial. You have described to me a human-dominant system that sounds as though it would work quite superbly, but that doesn't detract from the fact that it's all in your head and the likelihood of such a fairly run government actually happening is quite slim. In the end, power always corrupts.

Every action gives a reaction gives a reaction. If Humanity becomes unbearable they will lose power, and that reaction to them is far more likely to see an expanded Council of all the species than simply a return to Asari/Salarian/Turian. It's the advantage of weakness: either a Human Council pays greater heed to species concerns than the old Council does, or it fails for being too unresponsive to galactic concerns. And when it fails, chances are something far better comes around, because it will be much harder for the Council species to rally Citadel species behind 'they don't represent you' and then turn on that the moment they return to power.

It isn't the People vs the Administration because the common alien of the Council species likes the arrangement: they benefit most, after all. It's like going to the populace of a great power and asking "Do you want to stop being a great power?" It's like that populist Turian politician Thane's son is out to kill: he isn't out to reform the Council regardless of what happened, he's out to kick humans out and narrow it once again.

How could the humans not lose that power? One culture dominating other different cultures is how the typical old empire works. Humans know what humans need but not what the other spiecies need. It would be more efficent to create a Asari/Turian/Human/Salarian Council. Those races are all strong on their own but can benefit and complete eachother, provided that none of them is allowed to dominate the others of course. The idea behind the council is that no part is allowed to get too strong as that inevitably leads to the inefficent and corrupting empirial way of ruling.

It's far from perfect or fair but sharing power and allowing, even encouraging to an extent, differences means that power are less likely to corrupt. To quote Churchhill: "Democracy is a lousy way of ruling but the alternatives are worse". There is nothing democratic or efficent about letting one culture or race dominate.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...
How could the humans not lose that power? One culture dominating other different cultures is how the typical old empire works.

Typical old empires worked quite well, historically: the greats reason for the falling of empires was outside attack weakening them. More importantly, the more successful typical old empires were successful because they did tolerate and work with local cultures. What we know of as the Roman Empire included many regions that would have been surprised to be called Roman, as opposed to Roman Allies.

But that aside, human culture isn't dominating the others culturally, politically (like, say, the Turian Heirarchy and the Volus), or even economically (the Asari). Humans are only controlling the reigns of galactic cooperation, the Citadel.

Humans know what humans need but not what the other spiecies need. It would be more efficent to create a Asari/Turian/Human/Salarian Council.

Now that's just silly. Humans are no more incapable of knowing the needs of other species than the Salarians or Turians: they can read history, understand trade needs, be told the future desires.

Those races are all strong on their own but can benefit and complete eachother, provided that none of them is allowed to dominate the others of course. The idea behind the council is that no part is allowed to get too strong as that inevitably leads to the inefficent and corrupting empirial way of ruling.

And to keep everyone else out. The Citadel Council is a great idea if your conception of the galaxy extends to only three relevant species and ignore everyone else. The Council is already inefficient and ineffective on a number of levels, and the right hand of the Council itself is acknowledged as institutionally corrupt and lawless.

Even Humanity got much of it's special attention because it was being used as a possible prop against the Turians, judging from discussions you can have in ME1.

It's far from perfect or fair but sharing power and allowing, even encouraging to an extent, differences means that power are less likely to corrupt. To quote Churchhill: "Democracy is a lousy way of ruling but the alternatives are worse". There is nothing democratic or efficent about letting one culture or race dominate.

Democratic? No. Then again, four races dominating is only three more votes than one. It's like claiming that a four person board of trustees is a democratic way to run a university where the students don't get to vote. No one voted the Council in, it declared itself. It bases it's legitimacy on itself, not on a democratic mandate from the galaxy. The Council is many things, but a Democratic form of government is not one of them.



Inefficient? That's an entirely separate debate in and of itself. Most would argue that one voice is far clearer than many: even democracies in wartime cut the chatter and tend to focus with one voice on the relevant votes. It is not that democracies are efficient, but that their inefficiencies are tailor made to mute mitigate the ability for bad decisions.

Then again, the Alliance is a democracy, with regular free and fair elections and a wide range of candidates. Even more of one than the Turian Heirarchy, which doesn't pretend to be one, and possibly the Salarians as well, where there's such an estabilished pecking order. The Alliance has frequent, fair, open elections for people of all sorts of views. It's constituency might not include those of the other races, but then the Council never did either.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 juin 2010 - 11:15 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

but it leads to anti human sentiment.

You get anti-human sentiment regardless: the Turian still is making a popular campaign as anti-human regardless of what you do. The Pureblood Asari still hates humans for being involved in getting her daughter killed. Batarians still hate humans. Even Terminus system humans hate the Alliance regardless. 'Anti-Human sentiment' isn't some end-all objection, it's a natural consequence of anything a species-government like the Alliance does.

Anti-human sentiment means that a Human Council will have to be more, not less, responsive to the needs of the various aliens if it wants to survive. It will need to strike alliances, deals, and what not not just with old Council species, but easily with other species as well. Species that didn't have their own interests reflected by the Council either.

I can already picture Udina taking "care" of alien's interests...

Even in case when old council lives Citadel is crawling by humans and during Thane's L-mission Bailey express his concerns that C-sec is practicly overtaken by humans however i think this is another bug similar to Conrad Verner based at fact that default ME 2 is pure renegade because in case of saved Council that radical shift in C-sec quantity should never took place.
And Eriinia (Asari on Illium) hates not only humans but every other species eqaly seeing them as troublemakers causing chaos within galaxy.

Racial based hate was, is and will be always factor regardless off circumstances the only difference is if such hatred will have positive ground to grow up (like preemptive strikes because of Udina's paranoid delusions) or will be keept under control by logic and diplomacy if necessary.

And i will still say that Terminus settlement is completely illogical based on history, unless someone deliberately  encouraged that movement knowing that those colonies will be later on easy to "provide necessary asset" without fear of any political and especially military involvement from the Council and Alliance...

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I can already picture Udina taking "care" of alien's interests...

Even in case when old council lives Citadel is crawling by humans and during Thane's L-mission Bailey express his concerns that C-sec is practicly overtaken by humans however i think this is another bug similar to Conrad Verner based at fact that default ME 2 is pure renegade because in case of saved Council that radical shift in C-sec quantity should never took place.

Since the damage to C-SEC had to do with the attack and Geth in the Citadel, not the destruction of the Destiny Ascension, why should it be a bug?

And Eriinia (Asari on Illium) hates not only humans but every other species eqaly seeing them as troublemakers causing chaos within galaxy.

Which takes away from the point that there will be anti-human sentiment regardless... how?

Racial based hate was, is and will be always factor regardless off circumstances the only difference is if such hatred will have positive ground to grow up (like preemptive strikes because of Udina's paranoid delusions) or will be keept under control by logic and diplomacy if necessary.

Since when has Udina ever been depicted as paranoid and delusional? His character is infamous for being the most concerned with maintaining relations with the other Citadel species, while Anderson is the one who will trash protocol.

And i will still say that Terminus settlement is completely illogical based on history, unless someone deliberately  encouraged that movement knowing that those colonies will be later on easy to "provide necessary asset" without fear of any political and especially military involvement from the Council and Alliance...

You've already demonstrated your historical/military/economic incompetance of colonization and expansion many times.

[Asheer_Khan]

Roman Empire fail not only because of external attacks but as well because of rotten corruption of the goverment.



And fact that they "electing" psychos as Emperors (for example Kaligula or Neron) didn't help to stabilize internal policy as well.



Many historians says that Octavian August was first and only Roman Emperor which died by natural cause, all others usually end thier lifes in rather tragic circumstances.



*sigh...* During my many ME 1 plays i never meet even single elcor, volus or even hanar expressing thier displeasing whit Council policy about admission of new members, on the contrary many volus show thier displease about humanity prefferential treatment and by the way if you listening to Avina right after first arriving to Citadel she will say that Volus Clan actively OPPOSED to idea of giving humanity an embassy saying that this is too early for granting us such privilegde.



And furthermore, tell me what asset could bring Volus or Elcors to Council except one more executive vote right?



Humanity proven thier value during battle whit Sovieregin so we recived council seat but if council will start to accept everyone around then from executive power he will be pretty quick turned in Galactic Senate drowned in procedural arguments over everything.



And Dean... look what's going on in Iraq or Afganistan before you will claim again that humanity will be able to known how to handle needs of every citadel species...

[Asheer_Khan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I can already picture Udina taking "care" of alien's interests...

Even in case when old council lives Citadel is crawling by humans and during Thane's L-mission Bailey express his concerns that C-sec is practicly overtaken by humans however i think this is another bug similar to Conrad Verner based at fact that default ME 2 is pure renegade because in case of saved Council that radical shift in C-sec quantity should never took place.

Since the damage to C-SEC had to do with the attack and Geth in the Citadel, not the destruction of the Destiny Ascension, why should it be a bug?

And Eriinia (Asari on Illium) hates not only humans but every other species eqaly seeing them as troublemakers causing chaos within galaxy.

Which takes away from the point that there will be anti-human sentiment regardless... how?

Racial based hate was, is and will be always factor regardless off circumstances the only difference is if such hatred will have positive ground to grow up (like preemptive strikes because of Udina's paranoid delusions) or will be keept under control by logic and diplomacy if necessary.

Since when has Udina ever been depicted as paranoid and delusional? His character is infamous for being the most concerned with maintaining relations with the other Citadel species, while Anderson is the one who will trash protocol.

And i will still say that Terminus settlement is completely illogical based on history, unless someone deliberately  encouraged that movement knowing that those colonies will be later on easy to "provide necessary asset" without fear of any political and especially military involvement from the Council and Alliance...

You've already demonstrated your historical/military/economic incompetance of colonization and expansion many times.

*Sigh...*Udina concerned over aliens wellbeing?... that's honestly joke of the century...

That guy didn't hesitate to backstabing Shepard only to gain tempora 'approval points" by Council and if not Anderson willingness to put his life and career on stake propably Normandy would be still impounded when Sovieregin would apprear in Citadel Space and Saren will have free walk direct in Council chamber.

Even if Shepard would be able to stop Saren then this would be pointless anyway since we wouldn't have any way to neutralize reaper program and Sovieregin would have absolute free acces to Citadel relay.

  In fact ME 2 Udina should root in jail for abusing his position during whole crisis... and of course i known that you will quick reply that it was Shepard and Anderson who were traitors here but seriously i don't care anymore over any your reply...

Good day SIR.

[STG]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Since when has Udina ever been depicted as paranoid and delusional?

If you kill the Rachni queen Udina makes a remark: "We can't have mind controlling bugs running around my galaxy."

I'd say that calling entire galaxy "his" is pretty delusional.

Modifié par STG, 11 juin 2010 - 12:29 .

[Dean_the_Young]

STG wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Since when has Udina ever been depicted as paranoid and delusional?

If you kill the Rachni queen Udina makes a remark: "We can't have mind controlling bugs running around my galaxy."

I'd say that calling entire galaxy "his" is pretty delusional.

...you're a semantic idiot if you think that's proof of delusion. People reguarly identify themselves with things they do not own: my people, my nation, my god.

[STG]

Thanks for the compliments guys, always nice to see fanboys use "You are stupid" card.



Cya.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
*Sigh...*Udina concerned over aliens wellbeing?... that's honestly joke of the century...

Udina cares about what aliens think and feel because of how it affects Humans.

That guy didn't hesitate to backstabing Shepard only to gain tempora 'approval points" by Council and if not Anderson willingness to put his life and career on stake propably Normandy would be still impounded when Sovieregin would apprear in Citadel Space and Saren will have free walk direct in Council chamber.

A willingly blind representation of what happened: Shepard was the one out of line, and was the one risking Humanity's gains in the name of an unproven threat. Heck, if Shepard had magically gotten everything his way, by the time the Citadel formed a fleet and left to seige Ilos, Saren would be sneaking in the back door and Sovereign would have taken the Citadel in the meantime.

  In fact ME 2 Udina should root in jail for abusing his position during whole crisis... and of course i known that you will quick reply that it was Shepard and Anderson who were traitors here .

At no point did Udina abuse his position: he did his job and followed the laws doing what he should have done with the facts and proof available to him. An abuse of position would be to use privaleged access and break the laws... which is what Anderson did.

Anderson abused his position and helped save the Galaxy. Udina did not abuse his position, and did his job, which did not save the galaxy.

but seriously i don't care anymore over any your reply..

Good day SIR.

Madame.

Good day Madame.

And if you don't care about the reply, why bother to spend the time typing it up? Are you really so desperate for the last word?

[Dean_the_Young]

STG wrote...

Thanks for the compliments guys, always nice to see fanboys use "You are stupid" card.

Cya.

If you're going to make a stupid claim, be prepared for it to be called stupid. Claiming self-identification as proof of delusions of grandeur is a very stupid thing to do.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 juin 2010 - 12:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Roman Empire fail not only because of external attacks but as well because of rotten corruption of the goverment.

Corruption was not decisive. External attacks were fatal.

*sigh...* During my many ME 1 plays i never meet even single elcor, volus or even hanar expressing thier displeasing whit Council policy about admission of new members, on the contrary many volus show thier displease about humanity prefferential treatment and by the way if you listening to Avina right after first arriving to Citadel she will say that Volus Clan actively OPPOSED to idea of giving humanity an embassy saying that this is too early for granting us such privilegde.

You just contradicted yourself in the same paragraph. You do realize that, right?

And furthermore, tell me what asset could bring Volus or Elcors to Council except one more executive vote right?

What they have already done: stable, productive, good members of the galactic scene and economy. The Volus nearly created the unified galactic economy.

Why should someone need an asset to have the right to vote on affairs that involve them? Does your nation require you to be able to make a significant additional contributions before you are given suffrage?

Humanity proven thier value during battle whit Sovieregin so we recived council seat but if council will start to accept everyone around then from executive power he will be pretty quick turned in Galactic Senate drowned in procedural arguments over everything.

If arguing and too many interests is bad, the logical conclusion from what you have said is to narrow down the voices to one.

And Dean... look what's going on in Iraq or Afganistan before you will claim again that humanity will be able to known how to handle needs of every citadel species...

You're really going to take the position that loose oversight of galactic affairs is the same as managing a foreign-based insurgency?

Really?

There are plenty better examples to choose from much closer to the scenario: Washington DC managing the interests of an entire continent, the European Union balancing interests of far more independent entities, China, India, even Russia.

Moreover, you claim depends on the assumption that the Council can innately do better. How would the Turians respond to Afghanistan (besides bombing it from orbit)? Why would the Asari be automatically sucessful? The Salarians? The Salarians can't even keep an eye on ex-STG.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Roman Empire fail not only because of external attacks but as well because of rotten corruption of the goverment.

Corruption was not decisive. External attacks were fatal.

And if they had instant communications we might be all speaking Italian now. Point is, ancient empires are a bad analogy for modern dynamics and modern tools.

Modifié par Mouton_Alpha, 11 juin 2010 - 12:57 .

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

STG wrote...

If you kill the Rachni queen Udina makes a remark: "We can't have mind controlling bugs running around my galaxy."

I'd say that calling entire galaxy "his" is pretty delusional.

I think assuming that much about a person based one casual remark implies a lack of wisdom on your part.

Actually it shows its about numero uno for Udina, he seems to be prone to being a selfish person.

[Sajuro]

'Overlord: "When sent to investigate a Cerberus research base that's mysteriously gone silent, Shepard arrives to a dire situation. A dangerous experiment to fuse a human volunteer with a virtual intelligence has created a rampaging VI "Overlord."

Another example of Cerberus' incompetence.

[Dave of Canada]

Sajuro wrote...

'Overlord: "When sent to investigate a Cerberus research base that's mysteriously gone silent, Shepard arrives to a dire situation. A dangerous experiment to fuse a human volunteer with a virtual intelligence has created a rampaging VI "Overlord."
Another example of Cerberus' incompetence.

Without spoiling anything.. Cerberus appears even more incompetent in the game itself once you realised what is done.

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Every action gives a reaction gives a reaction. If Humanity becomes unbearable they will lose power, and that reaction to them is far more likely to see an expanded Council of all the species than simply a return to Asari/Salarian/Turian. It's the advantage of weakness: either a Human Council pays greater heed to species concerns than the old Council does, or it fails for being too unresponsive to galactic concerns. And when it fails, chances are something far better comes around, because it will be much harder for the Council species to rally Citadel species behind 'they don't represent you' and then turn on that the moment they return to power.

It isn't the People vs the Administration because the common alien of the Council species likes the arrangement: they benefit most, after all. It's like going to the populace of a great power and asking "Do you want to stop being a great power?" It's like that populist Turian politician Thane's son is out to kill: he isn't out to reform the Council regardless of what happened, he's out to kick humans out and narrow it once again.

In theory. We're playing a game where it's possible that humanity might acquire technology that gives us a huge advantage over other races, solidifying our power. If you kept the Collector base, for instance.

I would've said it would be impossible to install an all-human Council before the end of ME1 too. I would've thought the other races would never stand for it. Clearly the writers feel like they can do these things anyway.

I say the People vs the Administration because if the administration continues to ignore the Reaper threat the people will die. Their government is no longer serving them. It is hurting them. The entire galaxy is at threat. The administration has come to be at fault and "The People" need to see that.

It is not, I think, that non-Council races are trod upon exactly. They are wealthy, protected, and prosperous. They simply have no say in ruling politics, though they still influence them considerably, as the Council must keep them all happy.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 16 juin 2010 - 04:16 .

[Arijharn]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

'Overlord: "When sent to investigate a Cerberus research base that's mysteriously gone silent, Shepard arrives to a dire situation. A dangerous experiment to fuse a human volunteer with a virtual intelligence has created a rampaging VI "Overlord."
Another example of Cerberus' incompetence.

Without spoiling anything.. Cerberus appears even more incompetent in the game itself once you realised what is done.

Even I'm starting to think that the Illusive man should perhaps be paying closer attention to what his section heads are up too... having said that, wouldn't that be against his/their interests if he micromanaged everything?

It makes little sense for TIM for example to tell a microbiologist how to do his job if TIM isn't a microbiologist. If you aren't an aircraft engineer do you tell an aircraft engineer to use what specific tools he is or isn't allowed to use?

[Sajuro]

Arijharn wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

'Overlord: "When sent to investigate a Cerberus research base that's mysteriously gone silent, Shepard arrives to a dire situation. A dangerous experiment to fuse a human volunteer with a virtual intelligence has created a rampaging VI "Overlord."
Another example of Cerberus' incompetence.

Without spoiling anything.. Cerberus appears even more incompetent in the game itself once you realised what is done.

Even I'm starting to think that the Illusive man should perhaps be paying closer attention to what his section heads are up too... having said that, wouldn't that be against his/their interests if he micromanaged everything?

It makes little sense for TIM for example to tell a microbiologist how to do his job if TIM isn't a microbiologist. If you aren't an aircraft engineer do you tell an aircraft engineer to use what specific tools he is or isn't allowed to use?

But it wouldn't be beyond his power to micromanage in the sense of saying "Hey guys, don't you think that fusing human minds with a VI might create a Omnicidal Maniac?"

[Pacifien]

I had always gotten the feeling that the Illusive Man only cared that the results further his goals. It appears when he asks for an update from the various cells, he simply wants to know they've made progress. That's why some of the cells go through such extremes to meet the Illusive Man's demands. Don't know what he does to them if they fail.

It doesn't matter if the experiments blow up in their face either, so long as the Illusive Man can salvage something from the data. Take Jack and the Teltin facility -- a failure for what they might have been trying to achieve specifically, but they salvaged the data to use when they infiltrated the Ascension Project and the Illusive Man found a use for Jack eventually.

Also think he takes a bit of a willfully oblivious approach to the details. Have someone call him out on the less savory aspects of the experiments, he can point the finger at the ones directly involved in the research. He only gave them a goal, it was up to their own moral code on how to go about it. But I doubt the Illusive Man ever recruits anyone with a particularly honorable moral code.

[Arijharn]

Sajuro wrote...

But it wouldn't be beyond his power to micromanage in the sense of saying "Hey guys, don't you think that fusing human minds with a VI might create a Omnicidal Maniac?"

If you argued against everything on the basis of what might occur, we probably never would of 'invented' fire.

Communicating with the Geth is a pretty awesome idea though, 'swaying' them makes a lot of sense. I only objected to the decision in my one playthrough sp far because he was hooked up like a crazy techno christ figure, if he was comfortably lying on a slap with a matrix thing in the back of his head, I probably wouldn't of minded nearly as much.

Holding TIM to every bad thing that Cerberus does is sorta disingenious though. If I came over and killed your dog/cat/ferret/pet I would hope that you wouldn't hold my parents responsible... you'd hold me.

[Pacifien]

Arijharn wrote...
Holding TIM to every bad thing that Cerberus does is sorta disingenious though. If I came over and killed your dog/cat/ferret/pet I would hope that you wouldn't hold my parents responsible... you'd hold me.

Depends on if your parents gave you the knife and said "We could do with a dead pet around here."

[Arijharn]

Pacifien wrote...
But I doubt the Illusive Man ever recruits anyone with a particularly honorable moral code.

He 'recruits' Miranda and Jacob... he can recruit 'paragon' Shephard too.

I may be biased because I like Miranda a lot, but she's not what I'd call a morally bankrupt character by any stretch.