1013 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

Cydrone wrote...

by all accounts Cerberus went rogue, and TIM certainly doesnt seem to be your typical Alliance handler. (Unless they're just SO black-ops it transcends all Alliance protocol)

But we can't really judge their ineptitude without knowing their full operations.
From what I see, being able to pull off an expensive breakthrough like Lazarus without falling flat DESPITE aforementioned setbacks shows they're much less inept than apparent

The alliance cannot be seen working on ways to "make" better expendable shock troopers, the Alliance cannot be seen meddling with reaper tech withou council permission, the alliance cannot be caught working full force out of council space

but Cerberus (for the Alliance) can...which also would explain why Kaje (or however his name is spelled) says that his Data can compromise the Alliance

[crimzontearz]

OverlordNexas wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

This supposed terrorist group is repeatedly interrupted by Shepard throughout the first game and Zaeed has killed more than he can remember. So why does such a organization get foiled by a squad of three people and Shepard has basically wiped out several cells (assuming that each base contains a seperate cell) over the course of ME1.

Hell, the only thing they have succeeded at in the past 2-3 years was resurrecting Shepard and even that backfired on them if you destroyed the collector base and gave the data from that Cerberus operative to the Alliance.

because Cerberus is part of the Alliance.....

Not sure how that explains Cerberus's incompetence.

Shepard is the first spectre, humanity needs him, an Alliance black ops (and trust me at this point that is the explanation that makes the most sense) is NOT going to kill off the ONE human spectre even if he killing off some of the minor cells (it was implied in the expanded universe that the damage was not that great)

Likewise Humanity needs Shepard but he is dead, Cerberus needs to bring him back, they are gonna do it even at the risk of him running back to the Alliance which Cerberus works for anyway

it is only "apparent" ineptitude

That doesn't explain how every single one their little science projects ends up with everyone dead. I doubt Cerberus let all those Rachni escape to protect Shepard.

no....but Miranda states the project was abandoned

[Zulu_DFA]

OverlordNexas wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

This supposed terrorist group is repeatedly interrupted by Shepard throughout the first game and Zaeed has killed more than he can remember. So why does such a organization get foiled by a squad of three people and Shepard has basically wiped out several cells (assuming that each base contains a seperate cell) over the course of ME1.

Hell, the only thing they have succeeded at in the past 2-3 years was resurrecting Shepard and even that backfired on them if you destroyed the collector base and gave the data from that Cerberus operative to the Alliance.

because Cerberus is part of the Alliance.....

Not sure how that explains Cerberus's incompetence.

Shepard is the first spectre, humanity needs him, an Alliance black ops (and trust me at this point that is the explanation that makes the most sense) is NOT going to kill off the ONE human spectre even if he killing off some of the minor cells (it was implied in the expanded universe that the damage was not that great)

Likewise Humanity needs Shepard but he is dead, Cerberus needs to bring him back, they are gonna do it even at the risk of him running back to the Alliance which Cerberus works for anyway

it is only "apparent" ineptitude

That doesn't explain how every single one their little science projects ends up with everyone dead. I doubt Cerberus let all those Rachni escape to protect Shepard.

Cerberus gets the information. People die. Cerberus and Alliance value the information more then several hundreds of people's lives, including several dozens marines.

In the long run all these "blow-ups in the face" will save more lives, as now Alliance knows the points of no return in different hazardous and critical conditions.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 mai 2010 - 03:27 .

[Cydrone]

The were directly responsible for their own mistake: they should've simply moved on and try to settle somewhere else. In those 300-ish years their immunity-systems could probably have adapted to their new home, especially if they'd try to 'terraform' it a little to hold Rannoch's native flora.

They have tried to settle other places, attempts which failed due to incompatability or political interference.
And as Tali says the difference between acclimitizing to Rannoch or a new world is about 600 years.
Like hell anyone's gonna wait that long.

but Cerberus (for the Alliance) can...which also would explain why Kaje
(or however his name is spelled) says that his Data can compromise the
Alliance

Keiji from Kasumi's LM? I don't recall him specifically mentioning Cerberus involvement with Alliance. Only that the data would damage Alliance's reputation, which could be anything

Modifié par Cydrone, 15 mai 2010 - 03:34 .

[GothamLord]

I know it was probably accidental with editing but I didn't say that.

[mosor]

OverlordNexas wrote...

That doesn't explain how every single one their little science projects ends up with everyone dead. I doubt Cerberus let all those Rachni escape to protect Shepard.

And how you know about every one of their science projects? You only know a few of their failures and a couple of their sucesses.  You really don't know every project cerberus was involved in or their sucess ratio with those projects. For all we know they could have had a 100 other projects that were all sucessful and these werre the only failtures. Speculation when you don't have all the information goes both ways.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Zulu, what do you think of the possibility of ExoGeni being a Cerberus front or sponsor?

Edit: damn typo's

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 15 mai 2010 - 03:53 .

[mosor]

[quote]Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, the quarians got what they deserved.[/quote]

 [/quote]

So an entire people deserved near extermination because a few quarian scientists created AI with the intellegence of varren with no way of knowing they would network into something greater and a few quarian military leaders thought it was best to destroy it. Talk about punishing the many for the sins of the few. Hate to have you as a judge if I ever went to court.

[GothamLord]

mosor wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

That doesn't explain how every single one their little science projects ends up with everyone dead. I doubt Cerberus let all those Rachni escape to protect Shepard.

And how you know about every one of their science projects? You only know a few of their failures and a couple of their sucesses.  You really don't know every project cerberus was involved in or their sucess ratio with those projects. For all we know they could have had a 100 other projects that were all sucessful and these werre the only failtures. Speculation when you don't have all the information goes both ways.

Exactly.  Rogue or Not, Cerberus is a Black Ops organization.  If they are doing their job right we dont hear about them.  As Shepard we only get to hear about the SNAFUs that have cropped up.

[GothamLord]

Cydrone wrote...

Keiji from Kasumi's LM? I don't recall him specifically mentioning Cerberus involvement with Alliance. Only that the data would damage Alliance's reputation, which could be anything

Seeing as if you go through the scene of the data slowly pictures of Reapers show up its a very good indication that the Alliance is still holding ties with Cerberus, who should be the only one with any type of real Reaper tech. I guess its possible that the Alliance went around and tried to gather up peices of Sovereign for research but its the lesser likely of the two.

Modifié par GothamLord, 15 mai 2010 - 03:51 .

[OverlordNexas]

mosor wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

That doesn't explain how every single one their little science projects ends up with everyone dead. I doubt Cerberus let all those Rachni escape to protect Shepard.

And how you know about every one of their science projects? You only know a few of their failures and a couple of their sucesses.  You really don't know every project cerberus was involved in or their sucess ratio with those projects. For all we know they could have had a 100 other projects that were all sucessful and these werre the only failtures. Speculation when you don't have all the information goes both ways.

True. I have no idea about any of their other programs and I sure that they have had plenty of successful ones, but from what I the player have witnessed, Cerberus is nothing but a bunch of screw ups with a lot of disposable income and bodies. If it was Bioware's intent to portray Cerberus as a competent group of well intentioned extremist, than they have failed to impress that upon me. Perhaps if they were to actually show some of their successful projects instead simply telling me how awesome they are.

[Zulu_DFA]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zulu, what do you think of the possibility of ExoGeno being a Ceberus front or sponsor?

I don't see a direct connection.

I think, that Cerberus 100% has points on access to all information ExoGeni gathers. That is some ExoGeni executive/managment employees like Etan Jeong or even higher tier sell/transmit all interesting data they come across during their daily work to Cerberus people like Miranda (in some case without knowing or any interest in knowin where ultimately it goes to).

Also ExoGeni top people may know about Cerberus, and its ambigous status with the Alliance. They may contribute some funds as a matter of their good will, when a hat with "for Cerberus" label passes them at the Alliance establishment parties and events.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 mai 2010 - 04:04 .

[GothamLord]

OverlordNexas wrote...

mosor wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

That doesn't explain how every single one their little science projects ends up with everyone dead. I doubt Cerberus let all those Rachni escape to protect Shepard.

And how you know about every one of their science projects? You only know a few of their failures and a couple of their sucesses.  You really don't know every project cerberus was involved in or their sucess ratio with those projects. For all we know they could have had a 100 other projects that were all sucessful and these werre the only failtures. Speculation when you don't have all the information goes both ways.

True. I have no idea about any of their other programs and I sure that they have had plenty of successful ones, but from what I the player have witnessed, Cerberus is nothing but a bunch of screw ups with a lot of disposable income and bodies. If it was Bioware's intent to portray Cerberus as a competent group of well intentioned extremist, than they have failed to impress that upon me. Perhaps if they were to actually show some of their successful projects instead simply telling me how awesome they are.

Or perhaps the point is meant to make them look like screw ups on purpose.  Hackett was the first one afterall to come to you saying Cerberus went rogue.  Maybe the Alliance knew with Shepard becoming a Spectre dirty laundry would come out into the open.  To cover them asses and keep someone like Shepard on the Alliance side of the fence  they declare their black sheep of the family to be rogue and make sure to let him play clean up for the failed testing areas.  Keeps the Alliance looking clean and gets Shepard to be the good solider boy that he is.   They are Black Ops so its not like just because your an Admiral you get to know about all the stuff.  Probably why Kahoku was killed going after Cerberus. He became a security leak. 

Modifié par GothamLord, 15 mai 2010 - 04:06 .

[Sajuro]

OverlordNexas wrote...

mosor wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

That doesn't explain how every single one their little science projects ends up with everyone dead. I doubt Cerberus let all those Rachni escape to protect Shepard.

And how you know about every one of their science projects? You only know a few of their failures and a couple of their sucesses.  You really don't know every project cerberus was involved in or their sucess ratio with those projects. For all we know they could have had a 100 other projects that were all sucessful and these werre the only failtures. Speculation when you don't have all the information goes both ways.

True. I have no idea about any of their other programs and I sure that they have had plenty of successful ones, but from what I the player have witnessed, Cerberus is nothing but a bunch of screw ups with a lot of disposable income and bodies. If it was Bioware's intent to portray Cerberus as a competent group of well intentioned extremist, than they have failed to impress that upon me. Perhaps if they were to actually show some of their successful projects instead simply telling me how awesome they are.

This, even though they are shadow ops, that doesn't change the fact that cerberus personal have a very short life expectency which is probably why their pensions and benifits must be so great. You also have to realize there are probably a lot more screw ups than Shepard ever came upon.
Compare it to an organization you come upon, testing a puppy cannon which horribly backfires and kills all of the researchers. Then you see the leader and he tells you about all the wonderful things they have done in very vague details...

[Zulu_DFA]

OverlordNexas wrote...
If it was Bioware's intent to portray Cerberus as a competent group of well intentioned extremist, than they have failed to impress that upon me. Perhaps if they were to actually show some of their successful projects instead simply telling me how awesome they are.

ME2 was all about your participating in a successfull operation by Cerberus. Even if you could choose to "part ways" with TIM or destroyed the C-Base, it's still a huge success.

Of other successes Shepard doesn't need to know. And you roleplay as Shepard, so not much metagame information on Cerberus is deemed necessary to be released to you by the devs (ME: Ascention is bad enough).

A successful black operation is the one nobody knows about it being a black operation in the first place. No wonder you don't know much of Cerberus successes. They aren't exectly advertising them. And TIM doesn't want publicity for himself apart from his (or was it?) initial manifesto.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 mai 2010 - 04:19 .

[jwalker]

I99I Dragoon wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

They inspired the Alliance to create the SSV Normandy SR1.

Had they not done that, Sovereign would've succeeded and we'd of lost.

Of course, under someone else, the SR1 wouldn't of been used correctly, but Cerberus did help inspire the weapon that gave us the victory against Sovereign.

Well, I guess you DO learn something new every day. Didn't know that :happy:

You should talk to EDI after your crew gets kidnapped and ask her about Cerberus....

[Goodwood]

Goodwood thinks that people should stop being concerned with metagaming; in the age of the interwebz, it is inevitable anyway. That said, this "one great success" of which you speak needs to be backed up by moar, if there is any chance of balancing out the account of Cerberus atrocities and failures.

[OverlordNexas]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...
If it was Bioware's intent to portray Cerberus as a competent group of well intentioned extremist, than they have failed to impress that upon me. Perhaps if they were to actually show some of their successful projects instead simply telling me how awesome they are.

ME2 was all about your participating in a successfull operation by Cerberus. Even if you could choose to "part ways" with TIM or destroyed the C-Base, it's still a huge success.

Of other successes Shepard doesn't need to know. And you roleplay as Shepard, so not much metagame information on Cerberus is deemed necessary to be released to you by the devs (ME: Acesntion is bad enough).

Sure the paragon ending is still a victory for Cerberus, but its a Pyrrhic victory. TIM has gained nothing beyond the right to exist for a little while longer, while he has lost his multi-billion credit warship and two of his best operatives.

And I disagree about not needing to know about their triumphs. TIM wants me to work with him. Giving examples of some of the good they've done would be a lot more convincing than him saying "We're not as bad as you think."

[Sajuro]

OverlordNexas wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...
If it was Bioware's intent to portray Cerberus as a competent group of well intentioned extremist, than they have failed to impress that upon me. Perhaps if they were to actually show some of their successful projects instead simply telling me how awesome they are.

ME2 was all about your participating in a successfull operation by Cerberus. Even if you could choose to "part ways" with TIM or destroyed the C-Base, it's still a huge success.

Of other successes Shepard doesn't need to know. And you roleplay as Shepard, so not much metagame information on Cerberus is deemed necessary to be released to you by the devs (ME: Acesntion is bad enough).

Sure the paragon ending is still a victory for Cerberus, but its a Pyrrhic victory. TIM has gained nothing beyond the right to exist for a little while longer, while he has lost his multi-billion credit warship and two of his best operatives.

And I disagree about not needing to know about their triumphs. TIM wants me to work with him. Giving examples of some of the good they've done would be a lot more convincing than him saying "We're not as bad as you think."

maybe he is compulsively enigmatic. An entire Cell defected from Cerberus if you chose the paragon ending since I'm assuming all the minor crew members who survived the collecter base are now loyal to shepard.

[jwalker]

mosor wrote...


So an entire people deserved near extermination because a few quarian scientists created AI with the intellegence of varren with no way of knowing they would network into something greater and a few quarian military leaders thought it was best to destroy it. Talk about punishing the many for the sins of the few. Hate to have you as a judge if I ever went to court.

I can't be sure, but I think all quarians ( or at least, the vast majority ) were really happy having geth as cheap labor source.
Many more than a few were responsible for what happend to them.

Modifié par jwalker, 15 mai 2010 - 04:41 .

[GothamLord]

OverlordNexas wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...
If it was Bioware's intent to portray Cerberus as a competent group of well intentioned extremist, than they have failed to impress that upon me. Perhaps if they were to actually show some of their successful projects instead simply telling me how awesome they are.

ME2 was all about your participating in a successfull operation by Cerberus. Even if you could choose to "part ways" with TIM or destroyed the C-Base, it's still a huge success.

Of other successes Shepard doesn't need to know. And you roleplay as Shepard, so not much metagame information on Cerberus is deemed necessary to be released to you by the devs (ME: Acesntion is bad enough).

Sure the paragon ending is still a victory for Cerberus, but its a Pyrrhic victory. TIM has gained nothing beyond the right to exist for a little while longer, while he has lost his multi-billion credit warship and two of his best operatives.

And I disagree about not needing to know about their triumphs. TIM wants me to work with him. Giving examples of some of the good they've done would be a lot more convincing than him saying "We're not as bad as you think."

The problem with actually coming out and giving examples of the *good* they've done would blow the lid off them still being part of the Alliance.  Anything good that Cerberus accomplished gets filtered to being claimed by the Alliance themselves or one of the puppet companies that Cerberus uses as a front for income.

[Nightwriter]

I thought this thread was going to be about how inept the Illusive Man seems to be at controlling these "rogue" cells.

Now I realize that's just one way in which Cerberus is inept.

[Zulu_DFA]

Goodwood wrote...

this "one great success" of which you speak needs to be backed up by moar, if there is any chance of balancing out the account of Cerberus atrocities and failures.

Some people think that atrocity = failure.

TIM doesn't think so. He neens information and he get's it. He pays in cash and human lives.

I repeat: call TIM evil if you wish, but how many points in the OP's list of "failures" are failures in TIM's view?



Cerberus successes:

1. Studied the combat capacity of thresher maws.

2. Studied effects of thresher maw acid's effects on humans, with possible result of developing an antidote or genetic immunity mod.

3. Placed the "right" polititian on top of the pro-human political movement.

4. Created a pool of biotically gifted children.

5. Studied violent method of boosting initial biotic potential in humans, found them ineffective. Project closed.

6. Studied the possibility of creation of a controllable units of cloned rachni shock troopers. Results negative, project closed.

7. Successfully covered up some major operation, and eliminated a possible secuity leak (and an Alliance traitor admiral).

8. Accessed ExoGeni research of the Thorian, and the creepers. Acquired a specimen of the creeper for study.

9. Studied the effects of the mysterious Dragon Teeth, and the "huskification" tech on an isolated remote location.
(This was probably interrupted by the arrrival of Shepard on the scene).

10. Initiated the space-stealth tech imlpimentation and new type of ships' drive core research which led to Normandy SR1 creation. Later on built a better SR2 on their own. (And now Alliance builds "Normandy class" frigates).

11. "Overtook" (?) the exploration of Clendagon form the Alliance and found both the Derelict Reaper, and the 37 million year old super weapon, that knocked the Reaper out. Further success with the Reaper limited (team lost), yet retrieved and proved critical to the success of the Omega-4 Relay mission. Further insight into "huskification" tech also achieved.

12. Created EDI. A stable AI, at par with Reaper tech.

13. Revived Shepard.

14. Omega-4 mission. Stopped the Collectors.

15. Avoided bringing any public blame to the Alliance for all the above stuff.


So the only failures are:

1. Inability to prevent all security leaks, that lead to POSSIBLE (you could avoid doing those missions in ME1) destruction of ONE cell by Cmdr. Shepard, and potential further exposure (if YOU chose to give the information to the Shadow Broker), yet of minor potential importance, since the cell was dead, and it probably contained nothing to compromise other cells.

2. Lost Gillian Grayson due the defection by Pel, and failed to reacquire her on the Migrant Fleet due to Paul Grayson's defection.

? Yet to be released: Overlord project (pushing the limit again, not entirely a failure).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 mai 2010 - 05:17 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

maybe he is compulsively enigmatic. An entire Cell defected from Cerberus if you chose the paragon ending since I'm assuming all the minor crew members who survived the collecter base are now loyal to shepard.

Well it seems BioWare has taken the liberty to make some "choices" for all Shepards. These include: working with (for) Cerberus, and staying in touch with Cerberus. It looks like in the new DLC we'll be mopping up the Cerberus crap (it's called containment of a successfult project, that's gone at some point out of hand) on behalf of TIM (or even "Cerberus Command").

Still Even if Shepard steals the SR2, it's still in the human hands, promoting good will and cooperation with the aliens. Which is still in the Alliance's interests, and therefore in Cerberus's. The difference is that you may see it as the goal of your exploits, whereas TIM and the Alliance honchos see it as the means to their goals of power.

The only way to harm TIM is to go work for the STG (or rogue/pirate like Jack suggested) ofr directly aganst him.

But of course there is the issue of the lost potential, which TIM may consider as harm.

[GothamLord]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

this "one great success" of which you speak needs to be backed up by moar, if there is any chance of balancing out the account of Cerberus atrocities and failures.

Some people think that atrocity = failure.

TIM doesn't think so. He neens information and he get's it. He pays in cash and human lives.

I repeat: call TIM evil if you wish, but how many points in the OP's list of "failures" are failures in TIM's view?



Cerberus successes:

Another question in the success / failure department is Kasumi Goto.   There is really no reason for Cerberus to get her involved in Shepard's attack on the Collector base.  Really a thief? Sure she can do some serious tech skills but its an assault mission above all else not breaking into a vault.  However Kasumi's loyatly mission involves something called a greybox. A greybox that belonged to Keiji Okuda a former member of the Alliance Intelligence Agency. Said information on the box would do serious damage to the Alliance's reputation if leaked.  By getting Kasumi on Shepards team the greybox can be recovered and destroyed thus removing all connects with Cerberus and the Alliance on Reaper tech or its atleast monitored on its location from this point forward being on the Normandy.

Modifié par GothamLord, 15 mai 2010 - 05:17 .