1013 réponses à ce sujet

[BellatrixLugosi]

When Cerberus says "Humanity Firsts" I always think "First course" because in the first game they seem to kill more humans then the Geth.

[GothamLord]

AntiChri5 wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Not much of an excuse. Saying they have successes all the time they cant tell you about is like when i was fifteen and one of the only guys at school without a girlfriend and i said i had one who went to a different school far away.

Besides, if that were so TIM would have likely told you in his recruitment speech. Rather than just tell you they could do good he would have provided examples.

I explained why TIM didnt give any examples of "good" things that Cerberus accomplished back in an earlier post in this thread.   The political fallout and military ramifications are a little more epic than high school dating. 

Not to the world in general just to Shepard when he recruits him/her.

Theres no reason for TIM to fully trust Shepard with that type of information either at the beginning of the game. Shepard  wigging out on that kind of serious intel spillage would not help get him moving to investigate the colonies. If anything he'd start demanding more answers than he did from Jacob at the Lazurus facility. Take into account that Anderson is already sending you emails on rumors your alive the minute you step foot on the Normandy.  Imagine the reaction in the Citadel if Shepard shows up screaming about Cerberus dirty laundry and their not so rogue activities backed by Alliance funding.

If you want to believe that TIM isnt even on the top tier of the food chain with the Alliance/Cerberus conspiracy theory too maybe he wasnt given the green light to drop that kinda bombshell yet on Shepard. 

Modifié par GothamLord, 15 mai 2010 - 08:23 .

[Wildecker]

GothamLord wrote...

Another question in the success / failure department is Kasumi Goto.   There is really no reason for Cerberus to get her involved in Shepard's attack on the Collector base.  Really a thief? Sure she can do some serious tech skills but its an assault mission above all else not breaking into a vault. 

That's what it turns out to be: assault on a base. But right until you evaluate the data from the Collector cruiser trap you act on the premise that the Collectors come from a planet, and you will go there and make them stop.
Someone with pretty awesome stealth skills who can go through security installations like a ghost can be very useful there.

Of cause a simple order "Kasumi? Sneak inside, plant a bomb at their main power plant, then get the hell out - we'll stay here and hold the fort!" makes for a pretty lame endgame.

[BellatrixLugosi]

[GothamLord]

Wildecker wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Another question in the success / failure department is Kasumi Goto.   There is really no reason for Cerberus to get her involved in Shepard's attack on the Collector base.  Really a thief? Sure she can do some serious tech skills but its an assault mission above all else not breaking into a vault. 

That's what it turns out to be: assault on a base. But right until you evaluate the data from the Collector cruiser trap you act on the premise that the Collectors come from a planet, and you will go there and make them stop.
Someone with pretty awesome stealth skills who can go through security installations like a ghost can be very useful there.

Of cause a simple order "Kasumi? Sneak inside, plant a bomb at their main power plant, then get the hell out - we'll stay here and hold the fort!" makes for a pretty lame endgame.

Not saying shes not a valued assest to the team in the long run.  My theory is just more than the main purpose of recruiting  Kasumi Goto by Cerberus is getting the greybox back in possession for its Alliance intel as the main priority.

[GothamLord]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Nope.

"Because they're the heroes that Earth deserves, but not the ones it needs right now... and so we'll vilify them... because they can take it... because they're not heroes... they're silent guardians, watchful protectors... Cerberus"  

Modifié par GothamLord, 15 mai 2010 - 09:06 .

[BellatrixLugosi]

GothamLord wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Nope.

"Because they're the heroes that Earth deserves, but not the ones it needs right now... and so we'll vilify them... because they can take it... because they're not heroes... they're silent guardians, watchful protectors... Cerberus"  

Ok...............im going to stand over there........you kinda seem a bit off........

[Asheer_Khan]

And all this fuss is only because Martin Sheen's acting as TiM...

[BellatrixLugosi]

TIM would be hard to trust no matter the VA

[GothamLord]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

TIM would be hard to trust no matter the VA

I trust TIM as much as I trust Admiral Hackett. 

They're both part of the Alliance/Cerberus Conspiracy.

[Wildecker]

GothamLord wrote...

"Because they're the heroes that Earth deserves, but not the ones it needs right now... and so we'll vilify them... because they can take it... because they're not heroes... they're silent guardians, watchful protectors... Cerberus"  

I might as well borrow a few lines from STG Captain Kirrahe:

We are trained for espionage; we would be legends, but the records are
sealed. Glory in battle is not our way.

Think of our heroes; the Silent Step, who defeated a nation with a
single shot. Or the Ever Alert, who kept armies at bay with hidden
facts.

The problem is that you can justify almost anything with words like "If you look at the bigger picture, ..." and "In the long run, ..." - in essence claiming that contemporary jurisdiction is not suited to give you the credit you will eventually deserve from historians.
Spreading plagues in crowded cities is a crime. Leaving the survivors and their descendants with partial immunity to biological weapons and the tools to save those who still fall ill in a future war fought with dirty biologial weapons? Well, maybe it was worth it all ... in the end. Just don't expect those who lost parents, brothers, sisters and children to your plague to sympathize with you. Ever.

Modifié par Wildecker, 15 mai 2010 - 09:23 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

GothamLord wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Another question in the success / failure department is Kasumi Goto.   There is really no reason for Cerberus to get her involved in Shepard's attack on the Collector base.  Really a thief? Sure she can do some serious tech skills but its an assault mission above all else not breaking into a vault. 

That's what it turns out to be: assault on a base. But right until you evaluate the data from the Collector cruiser trap you act on the premise that the Collectors come from a planet, and you will go there and make them stop.
Someone with pretty awesome stealth skills who can go through security installations like a ghost can be very useful there.

Of cause a simple order "Kasumi? Sneak inside, plant a bomb at their main power plant, then get the hell out - we'll stay here and hold the fort!" makes for a pretty lame endgame.

Not saying shes not a valued assest to the team in the long run.  My theory is just more than the main purpose of recruiting  Kasumi Goto by Cerberus is getting the greybox back in possession for its Alliance intel as the main priority.

Obviously, yes.

[Asheer_Khan]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

TIM would be hard to trust no matter the VA

True.

However as was pointed many times when Cerberus rised as debate subject, at old forum Cererus defenders practicly don't egsisted.

But then ME 2 emerged whit brand "new" carefully bleached picture of Cerberus (failures?, sorry Shepard but those fails were nothing more than rogue cells) and his charismatic  leader VO'ed by Mr Sheen and suddenly start's pop up people who defend him and his organization no matter what arguments second side will brought to show how "competent" actually Cerberus is.

I really wonder what mess created another "rogue" cell covering "Overlord" project...

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 15 mai 2010 - 09:28 .

[GothamLord]

Wildecker wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

"Because they're the heroes that Earth deserves, but not the ones it needs right now... and so we'll vilify them... because they can take it... because they're not heroes... they're silent guardians, watchful protectors... Cerberus"  

I might as well borrow a few lines from STG Captain Kirrahe:

We are trained for espionage; we would be legends, but the records are
sealed. Glory in battle is not our way.

Think of our heroes; the Silent Step, who defeated a nation with a
single shot. Or the Ever Alert, who kept armies at bay with hidden
facts.

I almost redid Kirrahe's speech but I liked the ending part of Dark Knight better for it.  Both work however for the purpose.

The problem is that you can justify almost anything with words like "If you look at the bigger picture, ..." and "In the long run, ..." - in essence claiming that contemporary jurisdiction is not suited to give you the credit you will eventually deserve from historians.
Spreading plagues in crowded cities is a crime. Leaving the survivors and their descendants with partial immunity to biological weapons and the tools to save those who still fall ill in a future war fought with dirty biologial weapons? Well, maybe it was worth it all ... in the end. Just don't expect those who lost parents, brothers, sisters and children to your plague to sympathize with you. Ever.

Its really like the cancer question I see brought up in some moral debates. It varies sometimes with the number but the basic principal still applies. 

"If you were offered the cure for cancer. It would wipe it out forever as of today. No one would ever suffer again from it. But in order to have go into affect  5000 people would have to die.  Would you do it?"

Thats what Cerberus is basically tasked with. They are the big bad boogie man thats been created to take the blame for everything BAD that has to be done in order for progress to be made.

Modifié par GothamLord, 15 mai 2010 - 09:31 .

[GothamLord]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

TIM would be hard to trust no matter the VA

True.

However as was pointed many times when Cerberus rised as debate subject, at old forum Cererus defenders practicly don't egsisted.

But then ME 2 emerged whit brand "new" carefully bleached picture of Cerberus (failures?, sorry Shepard but those fails were nothing more than rogue cells) and his charismatic  leader VO'ed by Mr Sheen and suddenly start's pop up people who defend him and his organization no matter what arguments second side will brought to show how "competent" actually Cerberus is.

I really wonder what mess created another "rogue" cell covering "Overlord" project...

Of course it was hard to defend Cerberus before ME2. You only get one side of the coin.  You get Admiral Hackett telling you, an Alliance solider,  a black ops group has gone rogue from the Alliance.  Why wouldnt you believe him? The places you get information to investigate are overrun with failed experiments or abandoned research.

In ME2 you get to actually see and talk to Cerberus people without a gun pointed in both directions.  You get to see former Alliance soliders and heroes (Jacob Taylor) and former friends (Joker, Chakwas) now bearing Ceberus patches.  You get to actually see and hear stories from the rest of the crew and that there is another side to the coin.

Cerberus gets the bad rep because its their job to take the bad reb. Thats why they were created.   As soon as an Alliance project goes to hell. Its pegged *Rogue Cerberus Facility*  If it works out, its reclassified *Official Alliance Research Project* and made public.    Basic government coverups. 

Modifié par GothamLord, 15 mai 2010 - 09:44 .

[Wildecker]

GothamLord wrote...

Thats what Cerberus is basically tasked with. They are the big bad boogie man thats been created to take the blame for everything BAD that has to be done in order for progress to be made.

You assume that some body with sufficient authority has "tasked" Cerberus with these "unpleasant duties". While the Illusive Man tells you and everybody else that he "follows his vision" (or his gut feeling, if you're not into visions) to see what must be done and unleash someone to get the job done. The cult leader who had his followers release toxic gas into the Tokyo subway system in 1995 acted just like that.

The question remains: is there anybody out there who has sufficient authority to set a limit to Cerberus' operations?

Modifié par Wildecker, 15 mai 2010 - 09:50 .

[Arijharn]

Perhaps in ME3 the Illusive Man should send out the official Cerberus magazine; organization wide in which he explicitly congratulates every team for their accomplishments, and to which 'legit' organisation will get their spoils (if any).



Look, people who say that Cerberus are incredibly 'inept' are honestly showing a distinct lack of actual forethought/critical thinking. It's a shadow organisation, to what purpose would they have by releasing public information on their endeavours? People don't join Cerberus for the publicity (with the possible exception of Wilson, but it's highly likely that Project Lazarus wasn't his first project with the pro-human group)

[GothamLord]

Wildecker wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Thats what Cerberus is basically tasked with. They are the big bad boogie man thats been created to take the blame for everything BAD that has to be done in order for progress to be made.

You assume that some body with sufficient authority has "tasked" Cerberus with these "unpleasant duties". While the Illusive Man tells you and everybody else that he "follows his vision" (or his gut feeling, if you're not into visions) to see what must be done and unleash someone to get the job done. The cult leader who had his followers release toxic gas into the Tokyo subway system in 1995 acted just like that.

The question remains: is there anybody out there who has sufficient authority to set a limit to Cerberus' operations?

If Cerberus is still part of the Alliance, TIM has atleast a few people over his head. Most likely something along the lines of the President, VP, and Head of the Department of Defense. For the most part I've sure though he's left to his own devices and gives weekly updates through whoever his Alliance channel contact is... *cough*   Hackett *cough*  

[BellatrixLugosi]

The side of the coin you talk about, I barely see any change in opinion, miranda talks about the actions of Cerberus' Military branch's action's in the first game.....she does not condem it or go in further with it, kinda avoid's anything bad said about cerberus, she just drones on and on about Cerberus benefiting humanity and having Humanity's best interest without showing me besides a selfish desire to investigate these colony destruction's to untarnish their name.



Chakwas doesn't have loyalty to cerberus she just seems to care more about Jeff



Joker only joined because he could fly only with them, then later reinforced it when shepard comes along. But he starts being disillusioned to it, and with shepard renegade ending where shepard dies, he is obviously uncomfortable with TIM



Jacob, seem's to show mistrust with TIM aswell "Anything Human in those eyes"



And TIM, sorry just another power hungry despot hiding behind delusion of Virtue



And I dont buy any of these "Cerberus still alliance theory"



This is still beside the point, the point of this topic is Cerberus and whether or not this organization is competent, which the evidence shows mishandling so far



Show me competence please

[Asheer_Khan]

Riiiight... Hackett working for Cerberus...

Maybe soon you start say that Anderson and Udina are Cerberus operatives too?

[BellatrixLugosi]

Ha!

[M8DMAN]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

When Cerberus says "Humanity Firsts" I always think "First course" because in the first game they seem to kill more humans then the Geth.

Hey you cant make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

[GothamLord]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

The side of the coin you talk about, I barely see any change in opinion, miranda talks about the actions of Cerberus' Military branch's action's in the first game.....she does not condem it or go in further with it, kinda avoid's anything bad said about cerberus, she just drones on and on about Cerberus benefiting humanity and having Humanity's best interest without showing me besides a selfish desire to investigate these colony destruction's to untarnish their name.

Again I got back to a earlier post that its highly unlikely that anyone with any kind of information regarding high level activity in Cerberus was allowed to divulge it to Shepard. The chance of him flipping out was to high to risk.

Chakwas doesn't have loyalty to cerberus she just seems to care more about Jeff

Joker only joined because he could fly only with them, then later reinforced it when shepard comes along. But he starts being disillusioned to it, and with shepard renegade ending where shepard dies, he is obviously uncomfortable with TIM

Of course he's uncomfortable with TIM in the Shepard dies ending.  TIM was the guy that set up the *SUICIDE MISSION*    Shepard died.   Joker has a right to be pissed off at everyone.  Its called mourning.  I mean good Lord Shepard only died like what less than 30 minutes ago ??  

Jacob, seem's to show mistrust with TIM aswell "Anything Human in those eyes"

Hmm... Jacob was an Alliance solider.  Shepard was an Alliance solider.  BlackOps Group.  Jacob seems uneasy and he knows more about Cerberus than Shepard.  Another reason why its doubtful that TIM would drop any Alliance connections on Shepard early on.

And TIM, sorry just another power hungry despot hiding behind delusion of Virtue

Power Corrupts.  Welcome to the human condition.  When your job classification is signed by the military to be *Evil Villain in the public eye*  after a few years I'm sure you start to live the role.  Happens to spies alot, they start to accept their cover as being real.

And I dont buy any of these "Cerberus still alliance theory"

This is still beside the point, the point of this topic is Cerberus and whether or not this organization is competent, which the evidence shows mishandling so far

You dont have to buy the theory.  Its just a theory after all.   Its fun to speculate and hints in the game make it possible to piece one together.

Show me competence please

Impossible.  By theory , if the project is successful it will get reclassified as Alliance. 

[GothamLord]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Riiiight... Hackett working for Cerberus...
Maybe soon you start say that Anderson and Udina are Cerberus operatives too?

Yeah because a disembodied voice is so trustworthy???   He's the first one to tell you that Cerberus went rogue.   If that doesnt smell of setup ...    The dude admits to using you with the whole Lord Darius mission in ME1.

Udina and Anderson make no sense as Cerberus Ops.   Stop being silly.

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Cerberus weren't in the first game. Unless its some side mission I didn't notice.