1013 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

Cerberus weren't in the first game. Unless its some side mission I didn't notice.

LoL, but true.

[Asheer_Khan]

GothamLord wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Riiiight... Hackett working for Cerberus...
Maybe soon you start say that Anderson and Udina are Cerberus operatives too?

Yeah because a disembodied voice is so trustworthy???   He's the first one to tell you that Cerberus went rogue.   If that doesnt smell of setup ...    The dude admits to using you with the whole Lord Darius mission in ME1.

Udina and Anderson make no sense as Cerberus Ops.   Stop being silly.

As far as i remember first Alliance officer who told me about cerberus was not Hackett but murdered by Cerberus kilers ADM KAHOKU.

Seriously i don't recall any situation when Hackett even mention Cerberus at all, not even in relation to Toombs action.
For him Toombs was rogue marine who allied himself whit bunch of mercs and take some scientists as hostages.

[GothamLord]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

Cerberus weren't in the first game. Unless its some side mission I didn't notice.

Cerberus is all over the place in the first game.   Its nearly impossible to miss atleast a few references to them even just doing a speed run and avoiding all the side missions,short of not even clicking on terminals in certain rooms. 

[Asheer_Khan]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

Cerberus weren't in the first game. Unless its some side mission I didn't notice.

Apparently you skipped "Dogs of Hades" side quest which you can get from Adm Kahoku right after aquiring Spectre status.

This side quest ends whit destruction of one of the Cerberus cells and aquired some valuable data from thier network.

So don't tell me that Cerberus don't exist in ME 1.

[BellatrixLugosi]

GothamLord wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

The side of the coin you talk about, I barely see any change in opinion, miranda talks about the actions of Cerberus' Military branch's action's in the first game.....she does not condem it or go in further with it, kinda avoid's anything bad said about cerberus, she just drones on and on about Cerberus benefiting humanity and having Humanity's best interest without showing me besides a selfish desire to investigate these colony destruction's to untarnish their name.

Again I got back to a earlier post that its highly unlikely that anyone with any kind of information regarding high level activity in Cerberus was allowed to divulge it to Shepard. The chance of him flipping out was to high to risk.

Chakwas doesn't have loyalty to cerberus she just seems to care more about Jeff

Joker only joined because he could fly only with them, then later reinforced it when shepard comes along. But he starts being disillusioned to it, and with shepard renegade ending where shepard dies, he is obviously uncomfortable with TIM

Of course he's uncomfortable with TIM in the Shepard dies ending.  TIM was the guy that set up the *SUICIDE MISSION*    Shepard died.   Joker has a right to be pissed off at everyone.  Its called mourning.  I mean good Lord Shepard only died like what less than 30 minutes ago ??  

Jacob, seem's to show mistrust with TIM aswell "Anything Human in those eyes"

Hmm... Jacob was an Alliance solider.  Shepard was an Alliance solider.  BlackOps Group.  Jacob seems uneasy and he knows more about Cerberus than Shepard.  Another reason why its doubtful that TIM would drop any Alliance connections on Shepard early on.

And TIM, sorry just another power hungry despot hiding behind delusion of Virtue

Power Corrupts.  Welcome to the human condition.  When your job classification is signed by the military to be *Evil Villain in the public eye*  after a few years I'm sure you start to live the role.  Happens to spies alot, they start to accept their cover as being real.

And I dont buy any of these "Cerberus still alliance theory"

This is still beside the point, the point of this topic is Cerberus and whether or not this organization is competent, which the evidence shows mishandling so far

You dont have to buy the theory.  Its just a theory after all.   Its fun to speculate and hints in the game make it possible to piece one together.

Show me competence please

Impossible.  By theory , if the project is successful it will get reclassified as Alliance. 

God damn you are full of fail

Joker-States shepard would not take it that far in response to TIM's plans

TIM-Is a despot left unchecked, people like polictical leaders are put in check, he isnt

Impossible-elaborate........your going off the grid again

Jacob-Try answering the question

Gotham, Im anti-cerberus, if you want to sell your point you have to show me competence and a reason to show faith and trust in that organization, you are only showing your personal views

[ResidentNoob]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

Cerberus weren't in the first game. Unless its some side mission I didn't notice.

Look here:

http://masseffect.wi...i/UNC:_Cerberus

[BellatrixLugosi]

wow posts go quickly here,



Cerberus is mentioned in at least 6 UNC missions

[Zulu_DFA]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

this "one great success" of which you speak needs to be backed up by moar, if there is any chance of balancing out the account of Cerberus atrocities and failures.

Some people think that atrocity = failure.

TIM doesn't think so. He neens information and he get's it. He pays in cash and human lives.

I repeat: call TIM evil if you wish, but how many points in the OP's list of "failures" are failures in TIM's view?



Сerberus successes:

1. Studied the combat capacity of thresher maws.

2. Studied effects of thresher maw acid's effects on humans, with possible result of developing an antidote or genetic immunity mod.

3. Placed the "right" polititian on top of the pro-human political movement.

4. Created a pool of biotically gifted children.

5. Studied violent methods of boosting initial biotic potential in humans, found them ineffective. Project closed. Primary subject lost but reacquired later for Omega-4 mission.

6. Studied the possibility of creation of a controllable units of cloned rachni shock troopers. Results negative, project closed.

7. Successfully covered up some major operation, and eliminated a possible secuity leak (and an Alliance traitor admiral).

8. Accessed ExoGeni research of the Thorian, and the creepers. Acquired a specimen of the creeper for study.

9. Studied the effects of the mysterious Dragon Teeth, and the "huskification" tech on an isolated remote location.
(This was probably interrupted by the arrrival of Shepard on the scene).

10. Initiated the space-stealth tech imlpimentation and new type of ships' drive core research which led to Normandy SR1 creation. Later on built a better SR2 on their own. (And now Alliance builds "Normandy class" frigates).

11. "Overtook" (?) the exploration of Klendagon form the Alliance and found both the Derelict Reaper, and the 37 million year old super weapon, that knocked the Reaper out. Further success with the Reaper limited (team lost), yet retrieved and proved critical to the success of the Omega-4 Relay mission. Further insight into "huskification" tech also achieved.

12. Created EDI. A stable AI, at par with Reaper tech.

13. Revived Shepard.

14. Omega-4 mission. Stopped the Collectors.

15. Avoided bringing any public blame to the Alliance for all the above stuff.


So the only failures are:

1. Inability to prevent all security leaks, that lead to POSSIBLE (you could avoid doing those missions in ME1) destruction of ONE cell by Cmdr. Shepard, and potential further exposure (if YOU chose to give the information to the Shadow Broker), yet of minor potential importance, since the cell was dead, and it probably contained nothing to compromise other cells.

2. Lost Gillian Grayson due the defection by Pel, and failed to reacquire her on the Migrant Fleet due to Paul Grayson's defection.

? Yet to be released: Overlord project (pushing the limit again, not entirely a failure).

Just reposting.

CERBERUS IS SUCCESSFUL!!!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 mai 2010 - 10:34 .

[Arijharn]

If there's a failure in Gotham's reply's to you Bellatrix, it's because you've specifically set up your questions for him to fail, as a result, you're hardly the spirit of fairness that you seem to want to show.



Having said that, we both know Cerberus is a shadow organisation, a 'terrorist' organisation even. Not one of their accomplishments are going to be theirs, use your common sense.

[BellatrixLugosi]

Arijharn wrote...

If there's a failure in Gotham's reply's to you Bellatrix, it's because you've specifically set up your questions for him to fail, as a result, you're hardly the spirit of fairness that you seem to want to show.

Having said that, we both know Cerberus is a shadow organisation, a 'terrorist' organisation even. Not one of their accomplishments are going to be theirs, use your common sense.

Thank you, someone who knows how to kick my butt correctly

(thumbs up)

They would be only tolerable to me if they were regulated

Modifié par BellatrixLugosi, 15 mai 2010 - 10:39 .

[Zulu_DFA]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

They would be only tolerable to me if they were regulated

They are regulated. By TIM's buddies, who give him funds. It's not like he lives just on his own paper clip royalties.

[Foolsfolly]

You humans are all racist!

[GothamLord]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

God damn you are full of fail

Joker-States shepard would not take it that far in response to TIM's plans

TIM-Is a despot left unchecked, people like polictical leaders are put in check, he isnt

Impossible-elaborate........your going off the grid again

Jacob-Try answering the question

Gotham, Im anti-cerberus, if you want to sell your point you have to show me competence and a reason to show faith and trust in that organization, you are only showing your personal views

God damn?  Really? Full of fail? I'm not trying to sell anything.  I'm having fun with a theory. It has nothing to do with personal views. Are you really taking it that seriously?  Cerberus as nothing more than a evil organization is boring.  
 
Joker - Again  All his friends just freakin DIED.  He's going to question everything that just happened.  The guy already survived getting nearly abducted. How can he feel that he's the sole survivor AGAIN??

TIM - Yes  he's power left unchecked for the most part.  The theory is what Cerberus place is in he Alliance not if TIM is starting to become unhinged with power. Which is highly possible.

Impossible - How it that off he grid?  By the theory, Cerberus is there to take the fall for Alliance screwups in the public eye.  If its a positive outcome its declared Alliance officially.   How is plausible deniability off the grid??

Jacob - Whats to answer?  Jacob is a generally nice guy working for a Black Ops group.  From Jacob's personality alone he's out of place there.  Wilson and Miranda even comment on his truthfulness in the opening level.  You'd think working as a Corsair he'd have caught on to the whole covert thing.  Guess not.  His boss above Miranda is the biggest secret dealer just short of the Shadow Broker.  Trusting TIM 100% would be stupid for anyone. 

Modifié par GothamLord, 15 mai 2010 - 10:45 .

[Arijharn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

They would be only tolerable to me if they were regulated

They are regulated. By TIM's buddies, who give him funds. It's not like he lives just on his own paper clip royalties.

While I completely agree with you, to play devil's advocate, I have to wonder on how he 'reports' to his superiors. I hardly imagine they all 'sit' around a large mahogany table going through quarterly reports (or, talking to each other via computer terminal's ala Seele in the later stages of Neon Genesis)

To be a little more serious, I hardly imagine he rings up his backers and says: "I need another couple of billion dollars, the Gillian biotic project was a bust."

[BellatrixLugosi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

They would be only tolerable to me if they were regulated

They are regulated. By TIM's buddies, who give him funds. It's not like he lives just on his own paper clip royalties.

Thats barely admissiable.  Think Military vs. Corporations.  Corporations usually tend to do more un-ethical funding in this era it seems.  Look up some of Cerberus's ways of getting funding.  It's just so unsettling with these guys.  Basically look at Ari's post, it kinda cover's what I see about that.

Gotham, im just going to ignore that, you just re-posted more or less with different words. same story.  Were two people on different sides of the fence

Modifié par BellatrixLugosi, 15 mai 2010 - 10:55 .

[GothamLord]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Gotham, im just going to ignore that, you just re-posted more or less with different words. same story.  Were two people on different sides of the fence

*shrugs*

I'm not trying to bring you to the dark side or anything. But saying your going to ignore me is rather rude when I've been nothing but be civil in the conversation and my responses are hardly redundant or copy/paste.  

[BellatrixLugosi]

GothamLord wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Gotham, im just going to ignore that, you just re-posted more or less with different words. same story.  Were two people on different sides of the fence

*shrugs*

I'm not trying to bring you to the dark side or anything. But saying your going to ignore me is rather rude when I've been nothing but be civil in the conversation and my responses are hardly redundant or copy/paste.  

Then dont use Batman in an arguement, thats what made me not take you seriously.  And im sorry for being ****y because I am taking it out on you unfairly mostly because on of my friends dogs like 8 hours ago were ****ing poisoned by her **** neighbor so a little bit of anger is coming out on you a bit.

Can we just come to this understanding, Im Pro-Alliance, your Pro-Cerberus......deal?

[Arijharn]

I dunno, I think with the nature of unforseeable threats being well... unforseeable, then it would be prudent to pioneer technologies or methods of thinking 'outside the box.'



When you think about it, ethics are porous anyway. A couple of centuries ago people thought it was completely fine to set some Christians against Lions for the purpose of entertaining a mob anyway. Okay, I admit, that point was entirely academic and fanciful.



Basically, I have to ask this of you then, would Cerberus, as a whole, be more palateable to you if it was actually the Alliance doing these things instead of the arguably aligned Cerberus group (in other words, Alliance High Command instead of Illusive Man)? I've seen people on these forums seriously argue that they'd be willing to see their entire species become extinct rather than sacrifice something.



I have to agree with Gotham in this case (at least, I think it was Gotham who said it) that argued to the effect of 'being an evil organisation for the the sake of being evil is boring.' For the sake of argument, there better be (now at least) an explanation for why Cerberus scientists injected Toombs with Thresher venom.

[GothamLord]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...


Then dont use Batman in an arguement, thats what made me not take you seriously.  And im sorry for being ****y because I am taking it out on you unfairly mostly because on of my friends dogs like 8 hours ago were ****ing poisoned by her **** neighbor so a little bit of anger is coming out on you a bit.

Can we just come to this understanding, Im Pro-Alliance, your Pro-Cerberus......deal?

Oy.    It was meant as a joke with reworking the Dark Knight line.   I'm not as much Pro-Cerberus as much as I just like the theory of them still being the Alliance's dirty little secret and its fun to try and piece together the dangling puzzle pieces that make it work. But its easy to end as there isnt an argument to begin with. 

As for the dog. I am very sorry and if you were in the area of US, Maryland I'd probably be willing to help you beat the living **** out of said neighbor.  My wife is also from Virginia and knowns people that own pig farms. Real easy to get rid of the body...   

If you want another theory to toss around I'm game, I'm working on one with Morinth and Liara being half sisters based on the mysterious unknown *father* for both of them and being pureblooded Asari.  Thats another thread though.

Modifié par GothamLord, 15 mai 2010 - 11:12 .

[BellatrixLugosi]

Arijharn wrote...

I dunno, I think with the nature of unforseeable threats being well... unforseeable, then it would be prudent to pioneer technologies or methods of thinking 'outside the box.'

When you think about it, ethics are porous anyway. A couple of centuries ago people thought it was completely fine to set some Christians against Lions for the purpose of entertaining a mob anyway. Okay, I admit, that point was entirely academic and fanciful.

Basically, I have to ask this of you then, would Cerberus, as a whole, be more palateable to you if it was actually the Alliance doing these things instead of the arguably aligned Cerberus group (in other words, Alliance High Command instead of Illusive Man)? I've seen people on these forums seriously argue that they'd be willing to see their entire species become extinct rather than sacrifice something.

I have to agree with Gotham in this case (at least, I think it was Gotham who said it) that argued to the effect of 'being an evil organisation for the the sake of being evil is boring.' For the sake of argument, there better be (now at least) an explanation for why Cerberus scientists injected Toombs with Thresher venom.

When our government or military does a ****up and get's leaked to a reporter about it, we lose a bit more of faith in something.  Someone loses a job, the **** keeps going but its important we find out about these things because they lose interest in that project but they go to another so we tackle that one, regulation I mean, is that we at least try to get them to BE ethical.

Cerberus on the other hand literally too rogue, too much power in wrong hands.  They are sorta like the part of the American Government, refusing to work with others, end justifies the means. 

Now dont get me wrong on a few things, the council is stupid, ignoring a threat.  But I prefer someone with a beating heart to do things right going behind their back, because they want to limit the damage, and want to do things the hard way rather then "at any cost" Cerberus style.

Help a bit?

Edit:Thinking outside the box isnt smart when you got a guy leading a terrorist outfit that smiles when he gets a nice big base with techonology you allready know he will abuse after the immediate threat is gone.  Thinking outside the box means you test reaper indoctrination technology safely rather then unleashing it on a colony, which by the way literally means they put those colonist through hell it do that.  If thats out of the box thinking I like my box then

Modifié par BellatrixLugosi, 15 mai 2010 - 11:29 .

[GothamLord]

Arijharn wrote...

I dunno, I think with the nature of unforseeable threats being well... unforseeable, then it would be prudent to pioneer technologies or methods of thinking 'outside the box.'

When you think about it, ethics are porous anyway. A couple of centuries ago people thought it was completely fine to set some Christians against Lions for the purpose of entertaining a mob anyway. Okay, I admit, that point was entirely academic and fanciful.

Basically, I have to ask this of you then, would Cerberus, as a whole, be more palateable to you if it was actually the Alliance doing these things instead of the arguably aligned Cerberus group (in other words, Alliance High Command instead of Illusive Man)? I've seen people on these forums seriously argue that they'd be willing to see their entire species become extinct rather than sacrifice something.

I have to agree with Gotham in this case (at least, I think it was Gotham who said it) that argued to the effect of 'being an evil organisation for the the sake of being evil is boring.' For the sake of argument, there better be (now at least) an explanation for why Cerberus scientists injected Toombs with Thresher venom.

I like the idea of the Alliance getting caught being responsible for Cerberus still. Its a huge moral choice for Shepard in the game when it comes out and why I like trying to make the theory work.  Stay a loyal solider? tell them to shove it?  Help them redeem humanities name before the Council with the threat? Or use Cerberus to establish a new Star Wars style Empire in the process.

And yes I said them being evil for the sake of evil is boring.  We arent dealing with a Saturday morning cartoon villian.  I want depth and layers to things.  

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

They would be only tolerable to me if they were regulated

They are regulated. By TIM's buddies, who give him funds. It's not like he lives just on his own paper clip royalties.

While I completely agree with you, to play devil's advocate, I have to wonder on how he 'reports' to his superiors. I hardly imagine they all 'sit' around a large mahogany table going through quarterly reports (or, talking to each other via computer terminal's ala Seele in the later stages of Neon Genesis)

To be a little more serious, I hardly imagine he rings up his backers and says: "I need another couple of billion dollars, the Gillian biotic project was a bust."

Well, given the rampant treachery and defection at all levels, I'd expect TIM to minimize any reporting on his ongoing projects to outer parties. It's more like when he gets the solid results he gives away all the fruits and glory (of which he has no use anyway) to them. And the money keep flowing in. If he stops to satify his backers with his results, they'll simply throw the switch off. Also they have rival agencies (like Military Intelligence for whom Rear Admiral Anderson is working), to keep Cerberus at bay and in check, in case TIM corrupts and goes rogue indeed (that is conspire against the Alliance).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 mai 2010 - 11:32 .

[AntiChri5]

So many of these "theories" are cobled together from plastic, seaweed and a used condom.

[DPSSOC]

The problem with gauging the success and competence of Cerberus projects is that we're never explicitly told what the projects we encounter were out to achieve. Take the Telton facility for example. If the goal was to create a single controllable super biotic in-house then undeniably the project failed. If however the goal was merely to work out how to improve biotics in humans in general and the director was merely intent on having a single continuous subject in order to observe the cumulative effects of what they were doing then it may in fact have been quite successful.



So since we're never told outright from the man in charge what these projects were really out to accomplish, and what less than obvious successes they may have had, it's difficult to gauge the organization's competence.



I will say however that they brought a human being back from the dead after almost 2 years so they can't be completely inept.

[Arijharn]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

When our government or military does a ****up and get's leaked to a reporter about it, we lose a bit more of faith in something.  Someone loses a job, the **** keeps going but its important we find out about these things because they lose interest in that project but they go to another so we tackle that one, regulation I mean, is that we at least try to get them to BE ethical.

Cerberus on the other hand literally too rogue, too much power in wrong hands.  They are sorta like the part of the American Government, refusing to work with others, end justifies the means. 

Now dont get me wrong on a few things, the council is stupid, ignoring a threat.  But I prefer someone with a beating heart to do things right going behind their back, because they want to limit the damage, and want to do things the hard way rather then "at any cost" Cerberus style.

Help a bit?

Of course, I thought it was something like that. But here's how I see it.

Say we have two highly trained soldiers in our employ. Both are identical in terms of capability. They both weigh the same, they can both bench press twice their body weight and can carry the same loads for as long as each other. They are both precise shots, they are both great warriors. What if, however, one had biotic potential?

Biotics are the *new* thing. It's highly effective (since our first contact with other species, it's been constantly impressed upon us of the great capabilities these individuals can have) and is relatively easy for them to employ once they have been trained with minimal extra effort required to do so. We however, have a problem. We do not truly understand the human potential, how can we study this?

Can we go to the Council? Possibly, but can we expect them to be completely forthcoming with information? How would they see us asking for help? Basically, can we trust them? No, we can not. There will always be some divide between us simply because we aren't the same species. We have been brought up on different worlds, with different cultures, different methods of thinking. Sure, we can be friends, but we can not always expect them to remain so (look at the history of the Krogan rebellions and the reply's towards it, the Council only intervened when the Asari lost a colony world, to say nothing of the countless others that the Krogan's appropriated beforehand).

As I can see it, humanity had no choice but to go it alone. BAaT was set up and we all know how that turned out (and due to the ruckus it generated when Kaidan killing his instructor, may have given extra credence to the Cerberus set up in the first place, if it wasn't already.)

Long story short, we now have biotics, but far too few to really understand it at a comparative leap to other species. TIM carefully orchestrates some accidental eezo exposures to boost sample sizes. Is this an ammoral thing? I think some people would think so, but at some point if you willfully sacrifice a potential strategic option, then you're a bad commander. Sort of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Biotics is the new thing, it'd be irresponsible to just ignore it.

If we presuppose that TIM's are the 'wrong hands,' who then are the 'right hands'? We have to narrow our options to avenues where corporate or even governmental agencies can study it (in those 'right hands') but to argue a point; we have to know what is workable and what isn't first. EDI was monstrously successful, but the Alliance couldn't work on it could they? (The Alliance, as a government aka publicly visible organisation would be far more likely to have leaks)