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[Fizzeler]

Blood Magic is not necessarily evil, something Avernus points out, just forbidden because of what it can do and fear



Yes the Libertarians wanted to be free from the chantry, but it was Uldred being possessed by a Pride Demon and forcing others into submission that caused all the abominations to appear



Also, if you want an example against Blood Magic the one in Awakening of The Baroness using it to escape the Veil and create a physical form for herself

[sylvanaerie]

LOL



Well my PC's don't like Blood Magic. You're right, it never ends well despite what anyone does with it for all the best intentions (there is that old saying about the road to Hell and what its paved with after all). Its taught by demons (initially) Avernus will even say this. Its foolish to make deals with demons, that never ends well either.



That said i can see where some people who like to fall in the morally gray area would do it and use it and ultimately take the ritual when offered. (Anything to defeat the darkspawn). I don't play Wardens like that but it is certainly a valid viewpoint (and my Blood Magic hating Circle mage even tells Levi "Anything it takes to win") Doesn't mean SHE does it but she understands another warden might. No judgements even if she doesn't agree with it. And she certainly wouldn't work with someone using it (though I may have my current AW runthrough sacrifice Isolde and let Jowan sort of redeem himself).



Flemeth's plans...I think that woman has the gift of foresight and has circles within circles within circles of plans and has probably already outmanuered both the PC and Morrigan before you set your first foot on the road of your journey. Its Flemeth who ensures you are spurred onto your path at the very beginning. While I do trust Morrigan isn't lying to my PC when she says she doesn't intend to use the child to harm Ferelden, I DON'T trust her mother. But...by this point unless you refuse the DR, there isn't much more you can do to stop them.

[Sabariel]

I don't think Jowan taught Connor blood magic. I think he taught him "regular" magic. Demons are drawn to mages no matter what type of magic they use. I think Jowan didn't properly prepare Connor for a demon encounter and the demon used that to its advantage and made a deal with the naive boy.

[Fizzeler]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Flemeth's plans...I think that woman has the gift of foresight and has circles within circles within circles of plans and has probably already outmanuered both the PC and Morrigan before you set your first foot on the road of your journey. Its Flemeth who ensures you are spurred onto your path at the very beginning. While I do trust Morrigan isn't lying to my PC when she says she doesn't intend to use the child to harm Ferelden, I DON'T trust her mother. But...by this point unless you refuse the DR, there isn't much more you can do to stop them.

She has probably had her plan since The Stolen Throne, but yes Flemeth you can not really trust

Just because the Chantry says Bllod Magic is bad does not mean it is

[VampireCommando]

Hanz54321 wrote...

OK - the thread title was kind of to get your attention.  This is by no means a thread telling people there is a "right" way to play your RPG.  I've played every which way and "written my a different story" many times.

For the sake of discussion though:  Morrigan tells you 4 things before the Dark Ritual.  1) She cares about you (either as friend or lover).  2)  She intends to raise the Super-Baby to be good and respectful.  I believe her.  3)  This ritual is a form of Blood Magic "some would call it".  4)  "This is what mother intended."

Now it just occured to me if the game was open ended I would give her the speech of a lifetime.

"Have you learned NOTHING during our adventures about well intentioned Blood Magic?"

1) The Libertarians in the Circle of Magi.  They wanted to be free from the chantry and not constantly bullied by prison guards (Templars) just for being mages.  Noble enough, right?  Except look how using Blood Magic to achieve those ends blew up in their faces.  THey all turned into abominations and went berzerk."

2) Jowan. The guy dabbles in "harmless" Blood Magic, leading to his escape attempt and capture.  This leads to Fereldan's mightiest general order him to poison Arl Eamon for it under the guise of a tutor.  This seems noble - I mean Loghain is the hero of Fereldan as far as Jowan knows.  As an inexperienced tutor, he accidentally teaches Connor "a few minor spells".  Yeah - minor Blood Magic that leads to a tear in the Veil, Connor's posesssion, the massacre of castle guards, villagers, and the Redcliffe Knights out searching for the Urn when they should be protecting the kingdom.

3) Avernus.  Yes, let's use Blood Magic to defeat the tyrant Arland.  It's a noble cause to defeat a tyrant.  Oh wait . . . that blew up in everyone's face.  The Blood Magic and Demonology led to another tear in the Veil and the demons just kicked everyone in the groin.

OK - I'm out of examples right now.  But I'd be like "Come on, woman?  Don't you think this could wind up as, oooohhhh, say, a total catastrophe?  Let's not forget your mother's demon is back in the Fade looking for you.  Hell, she probably suckered us into killing her so she could possess the child.  I mean you said this was her plan - for you to make this baby - right?  Oh, you think that Grimoire will help?  Well 'MOM' was willing to hand it over to mem so I think she knows something you don't."

I still think Morrigan is a good person with a lack of social skills from all her years of seclusion.  But man is she dumb when it comes to Blood Magic.

If it were not just a game I'd never do the dark Ritual w her.  In fact, if I'd slept with her earlier in the game I might execute her right there for safety pending how pragmatic I was.

But then again blood magic is like anything - if you dont know how to use it propperly then it can and will go wrong- once one learns how to efectivly and safely use it then it becomes only as dangerous as other forms of magic. The reason i belive blood magic is more 'dangerous' than other forms of magic is because its forbidden, there for people arent aloud to use it full stop without fear of punishment - where as if people were aloud to use it they could eventully master it and it would become just another form of magic.

Now before you point out that it is evil and controls minds, ect, ect, do not forget that is up to the individual that wields it - a blood mage could for instance save someones lie rom a bandit attack/ demon attack/ what ever takes your fancy whilst another mage using 'normal' magic could burn down a orphange with everyone of its residents traped inside- the wardens or instance use blood magic to kill the darkspawn, never to build a all mighty empire and try to asend to god hood - yes Tevinter imperium i'm looking at you- so therefore blood magic is not 'bad'it is just that so little is know about it to use it safely yet and the bad guys always seem to be using it because there thinking 'why the hell not there probbs gonna execute me anyway' and then they use it, they dont have a clue what there doing and just like you said, bang it blows up in there face and tears a new hole in the veil so on so fourth.

So to some it up, blood magic isn't 'foolish' as long as your not hell bend on world domination or something and you know what your doing - which in DA at the moment the majority of 'blood' mages dont unfountaly-.

Have a nice day

[sylvanaerie]

There is another old saying "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". The Tevinter mages had no checks and balances on their use of blood magic and it went crazy out of control. While I don't swallow the Chantry's version of the Black City I DO feel as with most mythology there is an element of truth there. I think the darkspawn and the Black City AND the blood mages of the Tevinter all are connected (I don't know the WHOLE connection yet but perhaps more will be revealed later).

The Mirror Tamlen and the Dalish PC find is Tevinter in origin and tainted with the same taint as the darkspawn. Perhaps those early Tevinter mages uncovered something in that trip into the Fade, maybe even some (arch)demon that corrupted them.

Of course thats all speculation and starting to derail the thread anyway...sorry.

[thegreateski]

My Blood mage saved Ferelden and possibly the world with blood magic and was an all around goody goody two shoes.



En garde!

[Sarah1281]

Sabariel wrote...

I don't think Jowan taught Connor blood magic. I think he taught him "regular" magic. Demons are drawn to mages no matter what type of magic they use. I think Jowan didn't properly prepare Connor for a demon encounter and the demon used that to its advantage and made a deal with the naive boy.

Agreed. He said he barely taught Connor anything and knows that teaching him blood magic would just get the very religious Isolde to send him to the Templars. Not to mention that all of the reanimation and mind control Connor was using came from the demon possessing him, which encountered him in a dream completely independent of Jowan. Jowan's actions may have indirectly caused it by giving Connor a reason to make a deal with a demon but blood magic had nothing to do with that.

Most of the instances of blood magic being bad are when demons get involved. Morrigan is well-trained in not getting tricked by a demon as her mother is an experienced abomination who, when she possessed her, wouldn't want to deal with an upstart demon. Uldred was possessed by a demon and turned all the other blood mages into abominations. That was not what most of them agreed on and their blood magic wasn't the source of that. Yes, blood magic can be learned from demons but we have no reason to believe that being a blood mage makes you more of a target for demons.

And the Veil was torn because of all the death at the Vigil (the Veil was torn at the orphanage, too, and there was no blood magic involved) and because he summoned too many demon to be able to control them. It wasn't the blood magic itself that caused the problem, Avernus just tried to do too much. Blood magic is really just a tool, the problem is that the most common way of learning it is through a deal with a demon and those rarely end well. There is also just so much potential for abuse of the power, which is an argument the Chantry makes about simply being a mage and their excuse to lock them away.

The ritual might not be the best idea given we have no idea what the child will become or what Flemeth had planned but I think the blood magic aspect is really the least worrying part about it.

[VampireCommando]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I don't think Jowan taught Connor blood magic. I think he taught him "regular" magic. Demons are drawn to mages no matter what type of magic they use. I think Jowan didn't properly prepare Connor for a demon encounter and the demon used that to its advantage and made a deal with the naive boy.

Agreed. He said he barely taught Connor anything and knows that teaching him blood magic would just get the very religious Isolde to send him to the Templars. Not to mention that all of the reanimation and mind control Connor was using came from the demon possessing him, which encountered him in a dream completely independent of Jowan. Jowan's actions may have indirectly caused it by giving Connor a reason to make a deal with a demon but blood magic had nothing to do with that.

Most of the instances of blood magic being bad are when demons get involved. Morrigan is well-trained in not getting tricked by a demon as her mother is an experienced abomination who, when she possessed her, wouldn't want to deal with an upstart demon. Uldred was possessed by a demon and turned all the other blood mages into abominations. That was not what most of them agreed on and their blood magic wasn't the source of that. Yes, blood magic can be learned from demons but we have no reason to believe that being a blood mage makes you more of a target for demons.

And the Veil was torn because of all the death at the Vigil (the Veil was torn at the orphanage, too, and there was no blood magic involved) and because he summoned too many demon to be able to control them. It wasn't the blood magic itself that caused the problem, Avernus just tried to do too much. Blood magic is really just a tool, the problem is that the most common way of learning it is through a deal with a demon and those rarely end well. There is also just so much potential for abuse of the power, which is an argument the Chantry makes about simply being a mage and their excuse to lock them away.

The ritual might not be the best idea given we have no idea what the child will become or what Flemeth had planned but I think the blood magic aspect is really the least worrying part about it.

I belive this is quite similar to what i said above is it not? at least theres another person that understands common sense.

[sylvanaerie]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

If the child hijacks the Old God soul the second it's out of the Archdemon body, you also up the your odds for stopping the Blight by a vast amount. The Grey Wardens are needed to prevent that the soul goes into a darkspawn and the ritual eliminates that necessity - meaning that Archie remains dead no matter who deals the killing blow. That should be reason enough to go through with it.

OOH I never looked on it that way.  Good point.

[Sarah1281]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

If the child hijacks the Old God soul the second it's out of the Archdemon body, you also up the your odds for stopping the Blight by a vast amount. The Grey Wardens are needed to prevent that the soul goes into a darkspawn and the ritual eliminates that necessity - meaning that Archie remains dead no matter who deals the killing blow. That should be reason enough to go through with it.

OOH I never looked on it that way.  Good point.

It would have been amusing if all that wasted time dealing with the Alienage and th Market District meant that one of the people who enaged it first would have ended up dealing the killing blow. Or even if the GW were up there there's no reason to assume they were the only ones would could, expecially since no one else knew why it was supposed to be a GW thing. I don't think it would ever be quite as pathetic as if Cammen did it, though.

[Brockololly]

As far as Jowan goes, I think he is just a blundering idiot. I feel bad for him in a way, blood mage or not because he isn't evil necessarily he is just totally inept at every single thing he does.



But as for the DR being a dumb thing to because its blood magic, I can definitely see it having negative consequences. The thing is though we don't know exactly what Morrigan is seeking out of it besides an Old God Baby. I doubt she just wants her own little demon baby just to have- she surely has some pragmatic reason for all of this.



You figure the Tevinter mages messed with the Old Gods= they got turned into darkspawn (if you believe the Chantry). The Architect= unintentionally starts a Blight by messing with sleeping Old God, oops. And with Flemeth lurking, I can definitely see the whole DR having unintended consequences for Morrigan. She is certainly not infallible, as she supposedly was surprised that Flemeth was going to steal her body. Maybe Flemeth is just playing Morrigan and tricking her into the whole DR?



Lets hope Morrigan knows what she is doing...

[Ymladdych]

I have a personal infatuation with Flemeth's connection to the Dark Ritual: whether it's really something she wants, or whether she's just a fatalist because of her precognitive abilities.  In the Broken Circle Quest, one dialogue prompt will have Morrigan tell you that "Flemeth oftens says that things are the way they are because they could not be otherwise.  I have always questioned that."

One reason I question that she *wants* the DR performed: in one of her dialogue trees post-Ostagar, she's very clear in telling the Warden that the Archdemon is evil.  Furthermore, she pretty much says that even if you don't believe that the Archdemon is a corrupted Old God, you'd be a fool not to believe that it was at least a "fearsome and immortal" creature.  I don't know about you, but if I were hoping someone could be persuaded into possessing an embryo with an Archdemon's soul, I don't think I'd be dropping those little tidbits.  But that's just me.

It's also interesting that she will tell the Warden that she "laughs at a world full of stupid humans who ignore the Blight's evil to pursue mortal goals."  Well, what is it that you're doing exactly when you agree to the Dark Ritual?  It seems to me that you're doing exactly what disgusts Flemeth most about human beings.  In a way, I wonder if Flemeth sees it as, "Look, I'm going to give you all the information that you need to know, but you won't listen to me.  Nobody ever listens to me."  *points to Maric and Loghain*  "But that's fine, if you still want to hang yourselves...then you deserve to hang yourselves.  I'll even give you the rope to do it."

As for the Dark Ritual itself...if I were playing a male character I would be more inclined to do it.  But as a female character, I don't like pulling Alistair into it, and it has nothing to do with the sex.  I can't help but feel that the sperm donor is on the losing side of the equation, for one reason or another.  Reasons I feel this way: in order for Witherfang to be freed, Zathrian has to kick it.  Then you have the story of Luthias Dwarfson, where the hero had an encounter with one of the Morrigans in a similar situation, and things didn't end so well for him, even when the child was just a regular mortal.

A male character who wants to put that risk on himself?  I'd be happy to RP that.  A female character who wants to take that risk with her lover/brother in arms/friend/king?  Mmmm...I'm not personally interested in the arc that story could possibly take (too much Old Testament, Original Sin flavor to it), so I'm trying to avoid the possibility by sticking with the US/Loghain endings.  (Which sucks because it still jacks over poor Alistair, but what can you do?) 

[Der Kirk]

The way I see, I probably owe flemeth one by now anyways. I mean, she saved my life, and I killed her once. The least I can do is let her save me again.

[old book]

Well, I'm in the "Blood Magic is Neutral" camp myself. The Tevinter Imperium did some very evil things, but (unless you accept the "Blight is the mage's fault" Chantry argument) not that much worse than the Orlesians or the some of the rapist slaver nobles of Ferelden.



That said, Blood Magic or no, the Dark Ritual is not the Good option. You're freeing an Old God and putting its power in the hands of an abused young woman who has very limited empathy for anyone other than the Warden. You have no idea when or if Flemeth's Demon half will make an appearance, and you know that you're dancing to her tune.



You are trying to get out of the "In death, Sacrifice" part of the Grey Warden's oath.



Of course, if you don't take the ritual, you're not just dying; your soul itself will be destroyed. No afterlife for you. True extinction, in a world where the afterlife seems to be real. I don't know how many people would be able to make that sacrifice when there was an alternative.

[Emerald Melios]

Hanz54321 wrote...

"Have you learned NOTHING during our adventures about well intentioned Blood Magic?"

1) The Libertarians in the Circle of Magi.  They wanted to be free from the chantry and not constantly bullied by prison guards (Templars) just for being mages.  Noble enough, right?  Except look how using Blood Magic to achieve those ends blew up in their faces.  THey all turned into abominations and went berzerk."

That probably had something to do with the fact their firebrand Uldred was a loose cannon who probably went nuts after getting badgering over the years by Wynne since he didn't elect to take a teaching position. So really, if you think about it, that was Wynne's fault, not blood magic.

[Sabariel]

Hanz54321 wrote...
I think Jowan is SUCH an idiot he could've taught Blood Magicto Connor and wouldn't know it. But you are all correct - he never states he taught Connor BM. Even so - it was Blood Magic that got him captured by Loghain in thefirst place.

Except that Jowan realizes that he had been an idiot. He realized that using blood magic led to his current misery so I very much doubt he would teach it to Connor. I also doubt Jowan could teach blood magic without knowing it. I'm sure he knew the difference between his lifeforce and his mana.

[Sarah1281]

Emerald Melios wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

"Have you learned NOTHING during our adventures about well intentioned Blood Magic?"

1) The Libertarians in the Circle of Magi.  They wanted to be free from the chantry and not constantly bullied by prison guards (Templars) just for being mages.  Noble enough, right?  Except look how using Blood Magic to achieve those ends blew up in their faces.  THey all turned into abominations and went berzerk."

That probably had something to do with the fact their firebrand Uldred was a loose cannon who probably went nuts after getting badgering over the years by Wynne since he didn't elect to take a teaching position. So really, if you think about it, that was Wynne's fault, not blood magic.

Ines even says that in Awakening so it's canon as far as I'm concerned.

[Fizzeler]

old book wrote...

Well, I'm in the "Blood Magic is Neutral" camp myself. The Tevinter Imperium did some very evil things, but (unless you accept the "Blight is the mage's fault" Chantry argument) not that much worse than the Orlesians or the some of the rapist slaver nobles of Ferelden.

That said, Blood Magic or no, the Dark Ritual is not the Good option. You're freeing an Old God and putting its power in the hands of an abused young woman who has very limited empathy for anyone other than the Warden. You have no idea when or if Flemeth's Demon half will make an appearance, and you know that you're dancing to her tune.

You are trying to get out of the "In death, Sacrifice" part of the Grey Warden's oath.

Of course, if you don't take the ritual, you're not just dying; your soul itself will be destroyed. No afterlife for you. True extinction, in a world where the afterlife seems to be real. I don't know how many people would be able to make that sacrifice when there was an alternative.

The same could be said about The Architect in Awakening it could turn to either side of the coin either bad, horrible, why did do this? or you cause an extremely good thing bysaving an old god and it turns out for the better

I am opposed to the ritual (I only do it when I either need Morrigan or romanced Alistair) it is the cowards way out and as you said violates the Warden oath