72 réponses à ce sujet

[Lintanis]

 The bit from Flemeth that always catches my eye is the line she says to you (just after she tells Ser Jory how insignificant he is in the scheme of things)   "So much about you is uncertain,"   "but do I believe..... yes its seems I do" seems alot hidden in that mad ramble.

And what Gaxtang says to you about how eyes are on from a high,  Who could that be???, 

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

But . . . as someone pointed out to me, some Warden's are conscripted. They may recite the words, but they might choose not to live by them first chance they get. Lying is a huge part of this game - maybe your Warden lied.

But there is an Oath.

Forcing someone at the point of a sword to mumble some words is called survival, not lying.

[Creature 1]

Yes. My good, silly mage was never really serious about being a Warden, but ended up rebuilding the Wardens because it let her be with Alistair. My male Cousland agreed to join the Wardens in order to get Duncan's help in escaping Howe's men. My male Surana is a blood mage, snarks at the idea of Gray Warden ideals, and wants nothing more to do with them after the Blight is dealt with. He hates Duncan because Duncan was a manipulative liar. My female Tabris joined to save her life, and my male Mahariel will do the same. None of my elves have much interest in serving humanity.



All of them went through the joining with a sword pointed at them, figuratively speaking, and none were told the danger of it ahead of time. So their feelings towards Duncan and Gray Warden duty ranges from mild indifference (f!Amell) to near-loathing (m!Surana).

[Sarah1281]

All of mine feel that they signed up to end the Blight and once that's over with then their obligation is over with. You can't quit the Wardens? Tell that to Alistair. Ferelden is desperate for Wardens? Then maybe they should have thought of that before sending Loghain to Orlais.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 15 mai 2010 - 06:30 .

[Ymladdych]

Modifié par Ymladdych, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:22 .

[thegreateski]

Sarah1281 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Vicious wrote...

Do the Wardens ever swear an oath?

Nope. At least the PC never swears it. Nobody does apparently. It's like the Green Lantern Oath, really. Vague as hell, just be brave and die making a sacrifice. Nothing in there about dying killing the Archdemon or whatever.

I don't know . . . drinking that darkspawn blood cocktail during the joining seems pretty "oathy" to me.

Really? To me it was just a ritual to literally transform you into a GW. What that meant or what your responsibilities were (aside from ending the Blight) were never really defined. Possibly they didn't have time to make you swear an official oath because of the battle but as it stands...killing the Archdemon is the only thing you're really required to do.

A Grey Warden's job was to kill Darkspawn. I thought that was pretty straight forward.

To me the Joining is a way of saying . . . "We could make you swear an oath but those can be broken. Instead we're going to poison you so that the only thing that awaits you is a horrible death. Now you can either run away and eventually be hunted down by Darkspawn OR you can stay and reap all the benefits that come with being a Grey Warden . . . well, that and help us kill Darkspawn."

Modifié par thegreateski, 15 mai 2010 - 09:01 .

[sleepingbelow]

Suron wrote...
yah because the fact it was taught by demons....primarily uses blood (duh) for the spells which includes sacrificing others for the more powerful ones...mind controls is the predominate trait/ability of it.

no..no it's not inherintely evil at all

just as anything good can be used for evil purposes..so can something evil be used for good...

blood magic IS evil.  fact.

This is a goofy, goofy thing to say.  First of all, demons are not the source of blood magic.  Other sources that have blood magic attributed to them are Dumat and the elves of Arlathan.  Demons teach blood magic because the Chantry stomps out its use wherever it is found.  Demons teach blood magic the way that creepy dudes in creepy white vans have candy.  Delicious, delicious candy.

Blood Magic gets a bum rap because of its association with the old magocracy of Tevinter.  It causes disasters because Thedas no longer has a magical support structure to regulate it or bail people out when it is misused or goes terribly.  If you wait long enough for a disaster to happen with anything, you can just point, wave your hands and scream that a bad outcome was fated.

"Oh Maker, a car crash!  I told you, Bob!  All cars are destined for crashing!  Why did I play god?!"

Yet another thing the Chantry has messed up for mages.  Fact! 

(oh noes i sed 'fact'!)

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 15 mai 2010 - 11:49 .

[Swoo]

sleepingbelow wrote...
  It causes disasters because Thedas no longer has a magical support structure to regulate it or bail people out when it is misused or goes terribly. 

That's a really great point, actually. Your shunned, hounded, most likely learning second-hand or via traditional oral histories, forced into back alley deals for the majority of everything, no hope of ever being able to resort to reasonable ends to conflicts (He's a Blood Mage, you don't talk to Blood Mages! CHARGE!), and the lack of proper guidance and saftey in a budding mages career. I may hate the Chantry's leash on the Circle, but having the Senior Enchanters supported by a First Enchanter has probably saved tens of thousands of Connor's from ever happening.

If this was Star Wars, I'd easily fall into a 'Blood Magic is Evil' camp because that's a world of black and white. Thedas, not so much. Even Duncan says it's a useful tool as long as you use it for the right things, with the proper respect and control for the damage it can do.

I hope the next game does shed a lot more light on the Pro's and Con's of the school so we can get a more balanced opinion of it. 

[Brockololly]

Heck, even the Joining Ritual is basically blood magic as you're chugging some magical darkspawn/archdemon blood.

[krasnoarmeets]

I'd like to point out here that magic by its very nature is 100% neutral. It's essentially a force of nature in this world. The only way you can attribute a moral label to it is through its application and that is essentially controlled by the how the caster of said magic chooses to use it and therefore you're really labelling the caster's choices and not the magic itself, and morality, unfortunately, is subjective, which complicates matters even further. Incidentally, speaking of grey wardens here. Wardens aren't the good guys - they're the ones who will defeat the threat by any means necessary, which includes blood magic, raising cities etc. They aint called white wardens, are they? As for that mantra, 'in death sacrifice,' that's because it's how they've got the job done to date. If offered a better alternative, why not take it?

[Shady314]

Hanz54321 wrote...

OK - the thread title was kind of to get your attention.  This is by no means a thread telling people there is a "right" way to play your RPG.  I've played every which way and "written my a different story" many times.

For the sake of discussion though:  Morrigan tells you 4 things before the Dark Ritual.  1) She cares about you (either as friend or lover).  2)  She intends to raise the Super-Baby to be good and respectful.  I believe her.  3)  This ritual is a form of Blood Magic "some would call it".  4)  "This is what mother intended."

Now it just occured to me if the game was open ended I would give her the speech of a lifetime.

"Have you learned NOTHING during our adventures about well intentioned Blood Magic?"

1) The Libertarians in the Circle of Magi.  They wanted to be free from the chantry and not constantly bullied by prison guards (Templars) just for being mages.  Noble enough, right?  Except look how using Blood Magic to achieve those ends blew up in their faces.  THey all turned into abominations and went berzerk."

2) Jowan. The guy dabbles in "harmless" Blood Magic, leading to his escape attempt and capture.  This leads to Fereldan's mightiest general order him to poison Arl Eamon for it under the guise of a tutor.  This seems noble - I mean Loghain is the hero of Fereldan as far as Jowan knows.  As an inexperienced tutor, he accidentally teaches Connor "a few minor spells".  Yeah - minor Blood Magic that leads to a tear in the Veil, Connor's posesssion, the massacre of castle guards, villagers, and the Redcliffe Knights out searching for the Urn when they should be protecting the kingdom.

3) Avernus.  Yes, let's use Blood Magic to defeat the tyrant Arland.  It's a noble cause to defeat a tyrant.  Oh wait . . . that blew up in everyone's face.  The Blood Magic and Demonology led to another tear in the Veil and the demons just kicked everyone in the groin.

OK - I'm out of examples right now.  But I'd be like "Come on, woman?  Don't you think this could wind up as, oooohhhh, say, a total catastrophe?  Let's not forget your mother's demon is back in the Fade looking for you.  Hell, she probably suckered us into killing her so she could possess the child.  I mean you said this was her plan - for you to make this baby - right?  Oh, you think that Grimoire will help?  Well 'MOM' was willing to hand it over to mem so I think she knows something you don't."

I still think Morrigan is a good person with a lack of social skills from all her years of seclusion.  But man is she dumb when it comes to Blood Magic.

If it were not just a game I'd never do the dark Ritual w her.  In fact, if I'd slept with her earlier in the game I might execute her right there for safety pending how pragmatic I was.

I used Blood Magic the entire game and SAVED THE WORLD...

[sylvanaerie]

From the toolset, notes on Morrigan (for actress).  My thanks to Gilsa for posting these on the Alistair thread.  I just copy/pasted them for here.

Morrigan's character notes say ...

Description: Morrigan lacks the will to care about most things enough to excite herself over them. Her primary concern is her survival. She has a difficult time relating to other people, and feels extremely vulnerable outside of the marsh. Her sense of humor is dark and twisted, and she finds the most morbid things amusing.

Her primary goal is to gain skills and knowledge and become a powerful sorceress in her own right. She believes that having a child with the PC's blood will give her access to this power.

Personal background: Morrigan was raised in the marshes by her sorceress mother, Flemeth, and had little contact with society proper. She and Flemeth have a relationship more like servant and master than like mother and daughter. She fears being rendered powerless (magically or personally).

Morals: None at all. Morrigan learned morality from her abomination mother in the marshes where she grew up.

And notes for Flemeth encounter (After Morrigan sends you there)

Flemeth: "And so you return." (as she knew you would)
Flemeth: "Lovely Morrigan has at last found someone willing to dance to her tune. Such enchanting music she plays, wouldn't you say?" (she knows that Morrigan has sent the player here to kill her, at some level she's impressed her daughter finally managed it)
PC: "We know your little secret, Flemeth."
Flemeth: "<desc>Laughs</desc> Which one, I wonder?" (a great big laugh, oh this is funny)
Flemeth: "What has Morrigan told you, hmm? What little plan has she hatched this time?" (she doesn't really want to know but she is intrigued)
PC: "She knows how you extend your unnatural lifespan."
Flemeth: "That she does. The question is, do you?" (she knows very well Morrigan has lied to the player)
Flemeth: "Ahhh, but it is an old, old story. One that Flemeth has heard before... and even told." (waving off the details as unimportant -- she knows Morrigan has betrayed her, and since she' s betrayed many others she doesn't really take it personally)
Flemeth: "Let us skip right to the ending, shall we? Do you slay the old wretch as Morrigan bids? Or does the tale take a different turn?" (a bit eager to cut to the chase, "old wretch" said with amusement as it's what Morrigan would call her -- basically she's saying "will you do what Morrigan tells you to or something else?")
PC: What do you propose?
Flemeth: "Morrigan wishes my grimoire? Take it as a trophy. Tell her I am slain." (as if this were nothing, "here take the thing that means nothing to me)
PC: I could do that.
Flemeth: "It's far easier this way, don't you think? The lies are always more fun." (enjoying it)
Flemeth: "The book is inside the hut, with notes and spells enough to make even Morrigan blush with delight." (as if the book is worthless and Morrigan is a fool to want it)
Flemeth: "You and I will not meet again. <emp>That</emp> I guarantee." (enigmatic, said with a wicked smile)

-----OR--------

PC: "Is it true you intend to take Morrigan's body?"
Flemeth: "<desc>Laughs</desc> Oh, I do like that." (she finds this to be very funny -- this is the story that Morrigan told? How cute! Obviously, she's also NOT answering the question)

[LadyVaJedi]

IMO blood magic isn't evil it is the intent and the use of blood magic. It is the person that uses it for evil that is wrong doer not the magic. And when I play I have Al do the DR. I just can't bring myself not to do t he DR . I have a hard time accepting the fact that either me or Al will loose our soul..

[Ymladdych]

Modifié par Ymladdych, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:21 .

[spottyblanket]

I suppose it does seem crazy and foolish, but you cannot deny it is interesting.

[Master Shiori]

Ymladdych wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

I mean, if you did the Dark Ritual,
maybe you created the Stay Puffed Marshmallow Man and it's all going to
end because of you.

ROFLMAO.  If there ends up being an OGB that we have to fight, that's a mod I'd LOVE to see.

@sylvanaerie:  That's a great post, thank you!  See, I'm personally suspicious of Morrigan's veracity and it's cool to see that at one point, it was what the writers/devs intended.  (It can always change, of course.) 

The thing is, Morrigan brags to my character right from the getgo about being able to manipulate men, and more specifically, about being able to manipulate men into thinking that she's a. attracted to them and b. in some type of danger.  Furthermore, by her own accounts, Morrigan says that she's used these tactics to lead men to their doom.  Remember the stories about Flemeth having her act like a horrified child in need of rescue so they could ensnare the templars?  (Keep in mind that Morrigan also says that this was only after the templars ignored Flemeth's warnings not to pursue her.  To me, this indicates a humanity that I don't believe Morrigan, herself, possesses.)

I've seen "The Revelation" comic and I know people are impressed to see Morrigan crying.  Me, not so much.  Reason?  After all the crying is over, what does she do?  She hardens herself and decides to go through with the plan anyway, in spite of referring to the DR ritual as a "very TERRIBLE" thing.  The emphasis on terrible is even in the comic as a boldface type.  The fact that she cries like she does (even with a femWarden), tells me that she knows the repercussions will in fact fall back on her friend somehow.  The funny thing is that she even takes a "blame the victim stance" to rationalize it:  "I warned her!"  (I  presume it's the warning she gives about not being such a "great friend" down the road.)

Now, at this time, I don't think Morrigan (or blood magic, for that matter) is "evil" in the strictest sense of the word.  But then again, I personally see "evil" as being somewhat relative.  But I tend to think that Morrigan's plans will hurt my PC, other people, or the things my PC cares about.  Consequently, Morrigan is evil *to her.*  The DR will be evil *to her.*  Ultimately, if my PC finds that blood magic is being abused more frequently than not, then yes, she will determine that blood magic is also evil.

David Gaider said that Morrigan has a plan that she feels is more important than even her personal feelings.

The "something terrible" could very well be refering to the dark ritual and it's consequences, but it could also be about hurting your friend by having sex with her lover.

If the warden is male and in a romance with Morrigan, then she does come to love him in return even if she considers such feelings to be a weakness (David Gaider has confirmed this to be the case).

Morrigan may well be manipulating the Warden for her own end, but she does eventualy come to care about him/her.

[Ymladdych]

Modifié par Ymladdych, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:22 .

[askanec]

The Dark Ritual is just one horrendous mistake. When people play with things beyond their comprehension, disaster is almost certainly the result. Does Morrigon think she has the wisdom and power to handle the archdemon's spirit?



In any case, the wardens are entrusted to end the archdemon threat, and I'll be damned before my warden hands over such a heavy responsibility to Morrigon simply because he fears dying. Even Daveth is prepared to die and sacrifice a whole lot more to end the archdemon threat. Can my warden do any less?



Who knows what Morrigon will do to it, or what'll happen if it breaks loose? What if it ran amok and can't be stopped? Who will bear the responsibility then?