104 réponses à ce sujet

[KarmaTheAlligator]

In Cerberus' views, they are justified for the advancement of mankind as a whole, but on a humane view, they cannot be justified.

[nhsk]

Short answer: No



Their motives are enigmatic at best. They torture, commit atrocities and ultimately they want to grow their own Reapers to save humanity by giving up humanity.

They looked into the abyss for way to long.

[Dean_the_Young]

Likewise, on the human view, the genocide of the Krogans, the Rachni, and the Quarians after they were defeated (or, in the case of the quarians, when they had already lost) can not be defended.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Salvation comes with a cost. Judge not by our methods, but by what we seek to accomplish.

Or so that's what the Illusive Man said...

[Dean_the_Young]

nhsk wrote...

Short answer: No

Their motives are enigmatic at best. They torture, commit atrocities and ultimately they want to grow their own Reapers to save humanity by giving up humanity.
They looked into the abyss for way to long.

Growing a Reaper would be pointless even if it were possible and something Cerberus desires: not only would Cerberus have to already have the power and capability to win a war of genocide against any species it intendede to make just one Reaper, which it does not, (and have to turn against all it's stated goals and member opinion to do so with humans), it would be a galactic civil war for, possibly, one or two 'loyal' Reapers.

Against a hoarde of thousands.

Starting a galactic war before the Reapers arrive by harvesting other species is not in humanity's interests. Killing off humanity for a single Reaper is not in humanity's interest. If you halfways believe EDI about Cerberus's size, it would be impossible to do in the first place.

Building a Reaper is not using the base to it's fullest potential. Reapers aren't even the best usage of their own technology: they rely on superior technology to compensate for form, and they pursue their AI mind format as a matter of principle. The size, manufacture, and intent of Reapers are not necessary to use their technology more effectively then copying it directly.

[nhsk]

The total extermination of the Rachni was a mistake, was never meant to happen. It is said a couple of times throughout the game.

The genophage, I find myself conflicted here. I am with the krogan when they say they were wronged, but on the other hand. I don't know how fast a krogan female carries and how many she gets at a time. But apparently the choice is somewhat justified albeit it is definitely in the shade of grey.

My hope is that the krogan evolve due to it. Become smarter (seems like it) and come to overcome the genophage themselves by evolving past it, at the cost of a lesser kids per female, so they don't have population explosions.

But they seem to have serious population explosions if they they need to kill 999 out of 1000 pregnancies to main a stable population.

Not sure what is wrong in the quarian question though.

[nhsk]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Growing a Reaper would be pointless even if it were possible and something Cerberus desires: not only would Cerberus have to already have the power and capability to win a war of genocide against any species it intendede to make just one Reaper, which it does not, (and have to turn against all it's stated goals and member opinion to do so with humans), it would be a galactic civil war for, possibly, one or two 'loyal' Reapers.

Against a hoarde of thousands.

Starting a galactic war before the Reapers arrive by harvesting other species is not in humanity's interests. Killing off humanity for a single Reaper is not in humanity's interest. If you halfways believe EDI about Cerberus's size, it would be impossible to do in the first place.

Building a Reaper is not using the base to it's fullest potential. Reapers aren't even the best usage of their own technology: they rely on superior technology to compensate for form, and they pursue their AI mind format as a matter of principle. The size, manufacture, and intent of Reapers are not necessary to use their technology more effectively then copying it directly.

Bad choice of words, not actually creating a Reaper but more like using their technology to enhance a humans capabilites beyond a few cybernethics giving up humanity along the way. They are like "Hey, to defeat this enemy we must be as ruthless as them" - Take care when fighting monsters, or you end up as a monster.

TIM should clearly read Nietzsche and think long and hard about his actions.

[Dean_the_Young]

nhsk wrote...

The total extermination of the Rachni was a mistake, was never meant to happen. It is said a couple of times throughout the game.

Different people say different things throughout the game, reflecting their opinions. Mordin thinks it was a mistake: Wrex and Udina do not. There is no consensus across the galaxy.

The genophage, I find myself conflicted here. I am with the krogan when they say they were wronged, but on the other hand. I don't know how fast a krogan female carries and how many she gets at a time. But apparently the choice is somewhat justified albeit it is definitely in the shade of grey.

Well, it's reasuring to hear that killing ninety-nine unborn children out of every hundred on the basis of parentage can be justified.

My hope is that the krogan evolve due to it. Become smarter (seems like it) and come to overcome the genophage themselves by evolving past it, at the cost of a lesser kids per female, so they don't have population explosions.
But they seem to have serious population explosions if they they need to kill 999 out of 1000 pregnancies to main a stable population.

Sadly, the Council already has an active policy for when the Krogan evolve past the genophage: reimpose it without their consent.

The only advantage that survivng the Genophage gives is surviving the genophage. It doesn't make a Krogan any better.

Not sure what is wrong in the quarian question though.

When the Quarians lost in their attempt to shut down the Geth AI's (something more or less obligated by the Council due to bans on AI development), and then were being genocided by the same AI's that the Council feared, the Council refused to so much as take in the refugees of the resulting genocide, let alone help the Quarians (a long standing and respected Citadel race who obeyed the Council) when asked for help.

The Quarian Genocide was far more brutal and thorough than the Krogan Genophage rates, and against a foe that the Council has always opposed (AI) the Council did more than stand by and ignore the obligations to protect member species, but went one further and threw the Quarians survivors into permanent exile.

[Ieldra]

nhsk wrote...
...and ultimately they want to grow their own Reapers to save humanity by giving up humanity.

Where did you get that from? IMO that's just supposition.

I see they want to (a) increase the collective power of the human species as a whole, which in itself is an ambigious but natural goal, and ( increase every human individual's power by genetic engineering, which I consider a desirable and inevitable development in principle, with questions about how far to go admittedly unsolved.

Does that justify their methods? In short, no. Most of the time, at least, and even more so since for many of their methods I can imagine more acceptable, if more time-consuming alternatives. But in ME2 it's about more than political dominance and artificial evolution. There it is also about survival, and you can justify a lot more if your survival is threatened.

 

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sadly, the Council already has an active policy for when the Krogan evolve past the genophage: reimpose it without their consent.

Actually, I've wondered if the modification of the genophage was a Council directive or a salarian one.

Regarding the Council response to the Quarians, I've wondered if the Council's harsh inaction to the Quarian plight had more to do with the fact that the Quarians had accidentally developed AI or because the Quarians attempted to completely wipe out something that had gained sentience.

That said, horrible decisions from the past shouldn't excuse making horrible decisions in the present.

[Dean_the_Young]

nhsk wrote...

Bad choice of words, not actually creating a Reaper but more like using their technology to enhance a humans capabilites beyond a few cybernethics giving up humanity along the way. They are like "Hey, to defeat this enemy we must be as ruthless as them" - Take care when fighting monsters, or you end up as a monster.

Using an enemy's technology has never necessitated becoming like them. We did not become the four letter N word after we expropriated their findings, the Russians never became us during the Cold War for stealing as much tech as they could, and more historical examples abound.

TIM should clearly read Nietzsche and think long and hard about his actions.

I think you need a refresher about what Nietzsche argued if you think Nietzsche would be a good influence opposed to TIM's actions.

In his very debate about Morality, tellingly titled "Campaign Against Morality", Nietzsche (a self described immoralist) has this to say about Master-Slave morality (summarized from wiki):

Nietzsche said...

...Nietzsche presents master-morality as the original system of
morality—perhaps best associated with Homeric Greece. Here, value arises
as a contrast between good and bad, or between 'life-affirming' and
'life-denying': wealth, strength, health, and power, the sort of traits
found in a Homeric hero, count as good; while bad is associated with the
poor, weak, sick, and pathetic, the sort of traits conventionally
associated with slaves in ancient times.

Slave-morality, in contrast, comes about as a reaction to
master-morality. Nietzsche associates slave-morality with the Jewish and
Christian traditions. Here, value emerges from the contrast between
good and evil: good being associated with other-worldliness,
charity, piety, restraint, meekness, and submission; evil seen as
worldly, cruel, selfish, wealthy, and aggressive. Nietzsche sees
slave-morality born out of the ressentiment
of slaves. It works to overcome the slave's own sense of inferiority
before the (better-off) masters. It does so by making out slave weakness
to be a matter of choice, by, e.g., relabeling it as "meekness."

Nietzsche sees the slave-morality as a source of the nihilism that
has overtaken Europe. In Nietzsche's eyes, modern Europe, and its
Christianity, exists in a hypocritical state due to a tension between
master and slave morality, both values contradictorily determining, to
varying degrees, the values of most Europeans (who are "motley").
Nietzsche calls for exceptional people to no longer be ashamed of their
uniqueness in the face of a supposed morality-for-all, which Nietzsche
deems to be harmful to the flourishing of exceptional people. However,
Nietzsche cautions that morality, per se, is not bad; it is good for the
masses, and should be left to them. Exceptional people, on the other
hand, should follow their own "inner law." A favorite motto of
Nietzsche, taken from Pindar, reads: "Become what you are" (cf. to
Kierkegaard's assertion, in Vol. 2 of Either/or, that in
aesthetics you become what you become, whereas in ethics you are what
you are).

From that track alone, you could very much see influence of Nietzsche in TIM and Cerberus. The Council is the Master: what they want humanity and the rest of the galaxy to feel is the Slave. It certainly does reflect itself in your crew: Kaiden is often apologetic and submissive to the Council, emphasizing those slave-morality traits, while Ashley, hardly a racist by a real definition of the word, reflects more of the master-morality: of strength, health, and the need for a certain amount of power.


Nietzsche also wrote on "Will to Power" and the desire for theubermensch, the superior man. Neither of those is at all contrary to Cerberus's principles of human advancement.

[nhsk]

Hmm I need to go talk to Udina to see that, is that something that comes up if you kill the rachni queen in ME1? (I've yet to kil her but going to on my new renegade playthrough in ME1)



Regarding the Krogan- Yes they evolved past it, but they didn't carry less kids as a result. The krogan are aggressive and most wants to be the overlords if not directly carrying out more genocide. They killed of the rachni as they could not be controlled.

I don't imagine they would do less to humans, turians, asari etc. should they be allowed to breed freely. (bad wording I know) "When our clan numbers in the millions we won't need allies" - But I do think the krogan become smarter as a result of the genophage, look at Wrex, he achknowledges that the genophage is a reality and works around it. He knows that change is needed.

Anyway, from the scientifical point of view the genophage is better than the alternative - Uncontrolled krogan rampaging through the stars to conquer all.



Hmm its new to me that the council told the quarians to shut down the geth, thought they came to that conclusion themselves. If correct the council has once again dismissed the claim that they are wise leaders.

[Pacifien]

Ieldra2 wrote...

nhsk wrote...
...and ultimately they want to grow their own Reapers to save humanity by giving up humanity.

Where did you get that from? IMO that's just supposition.

Somewhat supposition. Integrating Reaper technology into a human body is the plot of the next book.

[armass]

The answer is a resounding NO, and to the people that say yes and end justifies the means I have a question for you:



What the hell is wrong with you?!

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sadly, the Council already has an active policy for when the Krogan evolve past the genophage: reimpose it without their consent.

Actually, I've wondered if the modification of the genophage was a Council directive or a salarian one.

Regarding the Council response to the Quarians, I've wondered if the Council's harsh inaction to the Quarian plight had more to do with the fact that the Quarians had accidentally developed AI or because the Quarians attempted to completely wipe out something that had gained sentience.

That said, horrible decisions from the past shouldn't excuse making horrible decisions in the present.

As the Council has wiped out at least two other sentient species and was more than willing to see the Quarians be wiped out, concern for the survival of a sentient race is unlikely, nor would killing billions (entire population) for the actions of thousands or millions (military/programmers who initially attempted to shut off Geth) be in any way balanced.

That leaves it as 'punishment' for accidentally developing AI's, which is more atrocious as that was letting billions of non-involved die for the actions of thousands of programmers. Billions of people who's only interaction was to use Geth, developed by means that never violated the Citadel rules on AI development.

[Barquiel]

nhsk wrote...

Hmm its new to me that the council told the quarians to shut down the geth, thought they came to that conclusion themselves. If correct the council has once again dismissed the claim that they are wise leaders.

"Panicked, the quarian government ordered an immediate shutdown of all geth."
The council had nothing to do with it.

Cerberus: NO
Unacceptable experiments. Unacceptable goals.

[Pacifien]

I suppose the Council could also take the stance that any event that only affects one species is the problem of that species, not the problem of the Council.

I'm not saying I agree with that stance. I'm not fond of the Council setup to begin with.

[nhsk]

Nietzsche's words has often been misunderstood or purposedly been used wrong - Nietzsches "ubermensch" theory is more about creating your own destiny, than what his sister abused and twisted his works to after his death.

But was not looking to go into a philosophical debate as, I have to admit, my English isn't good enough for that. Was merely thinking about taking care of your actions unless you want to become as vile as your foe.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Pacifien wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sadly, the Council already has an active policy for when the Krogan evolve past the genophage: reimpose it without their consent.

Actually, I've wondered if the modification of the genophage was a Council directive or a salarian one.

Regarding the Council response to the Quarians, I've wondered if the Council's harsh inaction to the Quarian plight had more to do with the fact that the Quarians had accidentally developed AI or because the Quarians attempted to completely wipe out something that had gained sentience.

That said, horrible decisions from the past shouldn't excuse making horrible decisions in the present.

The Council just followed the rules and expelled the quarians from the Citadel as soon as they realized they were involved in creating potentially dangerous AI. It appears that advanced AI research is strictly prohibited within Citadel space. When it comes to creating non-organic intelligence, the Council only allows virtual intelligence, but not artificial intelligence.

[Dean_the_Young]

nhsk wrote...

Hmm I need to go talk to Udina to see that, is that something that comes up if you kill the rachni queen in ME1? (I've yet to kil her but going to on my new renegade playthrough in ME1)

Regarding the Krogan- Yes they evolved past it, but they didn't carry less kids as a result. The krogan are aggressive and most wants to be the overlords if not directly carrying out more genocide. They killed of the rachni as they could not be controlled.
I don't imagine they would do less to humans, turians, asari etc. should they be allowed to breed freely. (bad wording I know) "When our clan numbers in the millions we won't need allies" - But I do think the krogan become smarter as a result of the genophage, look at Wrex, he achknowledges that the genophage is a reality and works around it. He knows that change is needed.
Anyway, from the scientifical point of view the genophage is better than the alternative - Uncontrolled krogan rampaging through the stars to conquer all.

All of which says that genocide is acceptible, if you agree with the motive behind it.

If you disagree with genocide because it's genocide, then not only is the Council black listed, so is Shepard (the Collectors/last of the Protheans). Extinct animals can also go in there.

If you disagree with genocide because it's genocide of sentience, then the Council is black listed still, while the Collector, being indoctrinated drones, were not self-aware.

If you disagree with genocide because of the reason behind it, then you're arguing about reason and not action.

Hmm its new to me that the council told the quarians to shut down the geth, thought they came to that conclusion themselves. If correct the council has once again dismissed the claim that they are wise leaders.

The Council did not necessarily tell the Quarians to, but their legislation against AI's would have demanded that AI's be shackled or ended. The Quarians acted for their own reasons (fear), but in no way against standing Council directives (ban AI research).

[Dean_the_Young]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sadly, the Council already has an active policy for when the Krogan evolve past the genophage: reimpose it without their consent.

Actually, I've wondered if the modification of the genophage was a Council directive or a salarian one.

Regarding the Council response to the Quarians, I've wondered if the Council's harsh inaction to the Quarian plight had more to do with the fact that the Quarians had accidentally developed AI or because the Quarians attempted to completely wipe out something that had gained sentience.

That said, horrible decisions from the past shouldn't excuse making horrible decisions in the present.

The Council just followed the rules and expelled the quarians from the Citadel as soon as they realized they were involved in creating potentially dangerous AI. It appears that advanced AI research is strictly prohibited within Citadel space. When it comes to creating non-organic intelligence, the Council only allows virtual intelligence, but not artificial intelligence.

Civilized justice systems usually have penalties for people who stand by and watch while their neighbor is being murdered for a mistake which they tried to correct.

When someone accidentally breaks a law, courts and police take a lenient view. When someone realizes they accidentally broke a law and tries to fix it, they are not then given the maximum sentence when they (and they alone) suffer from it blowing up in their face.

[Kaiser Shepard]

The real question is: would you join Cerberus knowing their reputation?



I would.

[Icinix]

Cerberus as a whole is an evil and terrible organisation. There are individual members which believe they are doing things for the right reasons, but they don't see the whole of what Cerberus does.



The attempted destruction of a Quarian Vessel, the torture of children, the torture of Rachni.

Whatever the gains from these events / studies are, they are not worth the cost of doing them in the first place.

If humanity is to reach amazing heights in the stars, it should be done through diplomacy and commitment and uniting the races. Not by standing on the shoulders of those they have abused and wronged, then crushing any non human beneath their heels. What kind of race does that make us if we believe their ends justify the means? Cerberus is only a few short steps away from being just as bad as the Reapers.

[mosor]

Icinix wrote...

Cerberus as a whole is an evil and terrible organisation. There are individual members which believe they are doing things for the right reasons, but they don't see the whole of what Cerberus does.

The attempted destruction of a Quarian Vessel, the torture of children, the torture of Rachni.
Whatever the gains from these events / studies are, they are not worth the cost of doing them in the first place.
If humanity is to reach amazing heights in the stars, it should be done through diplomacy and commitment and uniting the races. Not by standing on the shoulders of those they have abused and wronged, then crushing any non human beneath their heels. What kind of race does that make us if we believe their ends justify the means? Cerberus is only a few short steps away from being just as bad as the Reapers.

Cerberus didn't know about Rachni sentience. The thought they were experimenting on something equivalent of lab rats.

Diplomacy and commitment only works if you have the strength and power to back it up. If you don't, history has shown that sooner or later you will be crushed and thrown into the dustbin of history.

Modifié par mosor, 15 mai 2010 - 04:02 .

[Bigdoser]

In my opinion no but if you believe ends justify the means then yes.