104 réponses à ce sujet

[Ladi]

Justifiable to... who, exactly? Ultimately, a person need only ever answer to themselves. I may disagree with extreme actions and never take them myself, but I'm aware that many have been taken in the past that allow me to live like I do. If Cerberus members are able to sleep at night, that's all they need.

[Bigdoser]

This is quite interesting because those who train hard and still lose may end up with nothing but those who used drugs to win may also lose everything and lose the chance to win anything again while the person who lost even though he trained still has a chance. So in my opinion the end's do not justify the means.

[Lew717]

Revitalizing Commander Shepard, someone who was medically dead, using ethically dubious medical techniques without consent.

Ethically dubious? Where did you get that from, since the game hasn't discussed the  methods of Lazarus project at all? How is running knifes on and injecting stuff into a dead body, in a effort to bring it back to live, unethical? Maybe they resurrected Shepard by making a pact with Satan and sacrificing vrigins?

without consent

Because Shepard would probably want to stay dead? How are they going to get consent from a dead body anyway?

[Pacifien]

Lew717 wrote...
Ethically dubious? Where did you get that from, since the game hasn't discussed the  methods of Lazarus project at all? How is running knifes on and injecting stuff into a dead body, in a effort to bring it back to live, unethical? Maybe they resurrected Shepard by making a pact with Satan and sacrificing vrigins?

Ethically dubious by the Illusive Man's own admission. If he needs to persuade you to keep the Collector Base, he uses the Lazarus project as an example of what some might deem "going too far."

[Dean_the_Young]

Not all the treaties needed to be broken: I'm of the opinion that other arrangements were not only possible, but could have been better for both the natives and the Americans. Integration of the Indian tribes into the system, for example, rather than shunting them aside and ignoring them as assets and people. Given we turned the mormon colony into a respected and equal state, I believe we could have come to do the same with various Indian nations.



Winning is most important, yes! Undisputably when it's a survival game. But winning in the best way possible comes close: inefficient victories lead the way to later defeat. There is no endgame, but a constantly continuing one, and the 'how' is important because it effects you later on. A case in point: some empires in history have relied on superior numbers to swarm their enemies to win. Russia is one of them. Now, however, Russia is facing a population collapse. Other methods could also have won, but also given them better position to keep winning. Humanization does have it's place in survival, if only for the sake of a sustainable human system.



That is one reason why I believe the rogue cell was wrong. Not why it acted, but because I believe it could have acted better and made no attempt to. It went beyond a necessary horror and chose unneeded brutality without the option of any sort of empathy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

Lew717 wrote...
Ethically dubious? Where did you get that from, since the game hasn't discussed the  methods of Lazarus project at all? How is running knifes on and injecting stuff into a dead body, in a effort to bring it back to live, unethical? Maybe they resurrected Shepard by making a pact with Satan and sacrificing vrigins?

Ethically dubious by the Illusive Man's own admission. If he needs to persuade you to keep the Collector Base, he uses the Lazarus project as an example of what some might deem "going too far."

Some people would deem resurection of the dead going too far regardless of any consent or method: breaking the rules of nature and all that. Short of having a verran rape the corpse to introduce scale itch on the Normandy, there's no suggestion that it was inhumane or improper treatment.

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus's continued existence as a in-universe recognized effective organization is the strongest defense against those who insist on it's incompetence. Failed Cerberus projects are like red shirts from Star Trek: re-occurring story-telling tools that don't reflect on the in-universe lore.

Saying the Salarians will easily penetrate Cerberus ignores the fact that they have been unable to and that Cerberus's intelligence network is compared to the Shadow Broker's own. Saying the Turian fleets will crush Cerberus ignores that no one has been able to do so no matter how many cells are busted: Cerberus has no single home base to find and destroy. Saying that all their operations fail ignores that they continue to exist as a widely-regarded potent force, which could not happen if they uniformly failed.

You can not deem Cerberus weak and helpless when the universe lore tells us otherwise unless you also deem the Alliance and Council even more helpless and incompetent for not being able to stop them.

Keeping the Collector Base would give Humanity the ability to outmatch the Turians and the rest of the galaxy if it did come to that, which it wouldn't. Why would the Krogan, Geth, Quarians, and Rachni go to war over Human strength? Moreover, why would the Turians when they wouldn't over Humanity forming an all-Human council?

If the Collector base has value, then you wouldn't need the Turians if they were stupid enough not to join the fight for survival. If it doesn't, then the Turians wouldn't have reason to refuse to join in.

The Alliance and Council races are working slow due to the huge size of their organisations. Infiltration usualy take a long time, especialy if you want to make a strong case against someone. Cerberus has only been exposed for about two years. Remember that the galaxy is politicaly and economicaly dominated by the long lived asari who usualy take their time doing things.
The Alliance are heavily infiltrated by Cerberus wich slows them down more. The council races are still trying to figure out who those new strange humans are and what they want wich slows them down more.
With the evidence from the salarians the asari will destroy what little trust and credibility  Cerberus hasn't already destroyed themselves (can happen tomorrow or in two more years) wich will make them pariahs everywhere. There will be nowhere to hide from the turians if almost everyone you meet hates you.
The former council races have no reason to listen to a all human council at all. They just keep their already very good diplomatic relations with eachother, sit back and watch those strange and arrogant humans dig their own political graves (leaving Cerberus operational for a while would certanly hasten that) and then come back to power much stronger.
The other races have no reason to trust a organisation that have human supremacy through fear and lies as their agenda. Keeping the base of the dangerous and strange collectors would probably only make them even more mistrusted.

Bottom line is: Good public relations is essential if you want to survive in the long
run. Cerberus doesn't even try to gain that.

Modifié par lovgreno, 15 mai 2010 - 08:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus has been exposed for most of the last twenty odd years: they first came to light shortly after the First Contact War, and have been active since. They haven't been especially active for the last two, and Mordin (and the STG) have known about them for a great deal longer. Cerberus only became more visible with Shepard in the 'now.'

There's no real suggestion that Council hesitation to assist the Alliance is due in any aspect to Cerberus, which has never been tied to the Alliance in the first place (first as a black ops for deniability, then as legitimately rogue), as opposed to their standard politics.

The Turians are no longer a threatening armegeddon: if you saved the Council humanity is popular and the aliens have no desire to kill the species for the actions of a small terrorist group, and if you didn't then the Turians no longer have the strength after the losses at the Citadel. Even prior to the Citadel, a Turian-Human war was judged likely to wreck much of the galaxy, and would have been a Phyric victory. Pyhric victories of galactic scale are like nuclear war: whoever wins, everyone loses. After the death of the Council, a Turian attack would be a Phyric loss.

Since the former council races do listen to the human council at all, your point is false from the face of it. Not being popular with the Council races does not mean alone in the galaxy: an all human council is just as representative of all the non-Council races like the Volus, and far more likely to follow Shepard in establishing ties with the powerful races the Council abandoned (the Quarians, the Krogan, the Rachni).

Cerberus and the Alliance are distinct. What Cerberus does has never disqualified the Alliance, and vice versa.

The approval of the Turians, the Salarians, and the Asari are not necessary for galactic survival. Only the Turians are confrontational in the first place, the Asari are largely demilitarized and the Salarians more or less neutral.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mai 2010 - 09:26 .

[DPSSOC]

lovgreno wrote...

With the evidence from the salarians the asari will destroy what little trust and credibility  Cerberus hasn't already destroyed themselves (can happen tomorrow or in two more years) wich will make them pariahs everywhere. There will be nowhere to hide from the turians if almost everyone you meet hates you.

Which would be an issue, if Cerberus were it's own distinct race/ethnicity.  For example durring both world wars German citizens in Canada (other allied countries too probably) were viewed with suspiscion and hate.  This was only a problem because there are ways to identify someone as German (accent, surname, even physical appearance to a degree).  Cerberus doesn't have that problem they can seemlessly blend in with any human population and just bide their time.

[prizm123]

if Cerberus advocated the genocide of the Reapers, would all the anti genocide people still believe it to be wrong, knowing the threat and power they represent?

[Dean_the_Young]

If you do what the Reapers do, you become just like them!

[lovgreno]

DPSSOC wrote..
Which would be an issue, if Cerberus were it's own distinct race/ethnicity.  For example durring both world wars German citizens in Canada (other allied countries too probably) were viewed with suspiscion and hate.  This was only a problem because there are ways to identify someone as German (accent, surname, even physical appearance to a degree).  Cerberus doesn't have that problem they can seemlessly blend in with any human population and just bide their time.

The thing is that Cerberus makes every human look bad. Just like all batarians suffer from the slavers and terrorists. Human diplomatic and trade relations with the galaxy would fail. Humanity would find themselves alone and stagnating, fearing and hating both Cerberus and aliens. That is hardly making humanity stronger.

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you do what the Reapers do, you become just like them!

Yeah, but you probably won't care at that point.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

DPSSOC wrote..
Which would be an issue, if Cerberus were it's own distinct race/ethnicity.  For example durring both world wars German citizens in Canada (other allied countries too probably) were viewed with suspiscion and hate.  This was only a problem because there are ways to identify someone as German (accent, surname, even physical appearance to a degree).  Cerberus doesn't have that problem they can seemlessly blend in with any human population and just bide their time.

The thing is that Cerberus makes every human look bad. Just like all batarians suffer from the slavers and terrorists. Human diplomatic and trade relations with the galaxy would fail. Humanity would find themselves alone and stagnating, fearing and hating both Cerberus and aliens. That is hardly making humanity stronger.

The Council makes the aliens look bad.

OMG THE COUNCIL IS DOOMING THE ALIENS!!11!1!


(Actually, it kind of did. Their fault, though.)

[Spartas Husky]

Like said before....not justified, but effective , sadly.

[Sgt.Invincible]

Of course, without cerberus all advanced culture would die, they could kill millions of innocent children and kittens and still be justified.

[Dean_the_Young]

I defy you to find when Cerberus killed kittens! Defy you, I say!



More seriously, without Cerberus all advanced culture would die: the Collectors weren't just an annoyance, they were an existential threat to the galaxy. And Cerberus was indispensable in thwarting them.

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
More seriously, without Cerberus all advanced culture would die: the Collectors weren't just an annoyance, they were an existential threat to the galaxy. And Cerberus was indispensable in thwarting them.

Nah, just human culture would have died.

Just because I rescued a kitten doesn't justify punching your grandmother in the face. Unless she deserved it. Wait, I could probably come up with a better scenario than that to make a point.... Nah, I'll go with that one.

[Dean_the_Young]

With the Human Reaper, it would be much like Sovereign attacking the Citadel, only without Shepard there to stop them.



Cheesy? Yes. But that was the implications of the story, that the Human Reaper was tied to the return of the Reapers from Dark Space.

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus has been exposed for most of the last twenty odd years: they first came to light shortly after the First Contact War, and have been active since. They haven't been especially active for the last two, and Mordin (and the STG) have known about them for a great deal longer. Cerberus only became more visible with Shepard in the 'now.'

There's no real suggestion that Council hesitation to assist the Alliance is due in any aspect to Cerberus, which has never been tied to the Alliance in the first place (first as a black ops for deniability, then as legitimately rogue), as opposed to their standard politics.

The Turians are no longer a threatening armegeddon: if you saved the Council humanity is popular and the aliens have no desire to kill the species for the actions of a small terrorist group, and if you didn't then the Turians no longer have the strength after the losses at the Citadel. Even prior to the Citadel, a Turian-Human war was judged likely to wreck much of the galaxy, and would have been a Phyric victory. Pyhric victories of galactic scale are like nuclear war: whoever wins, everyone loses. After the death of the Council, a Turian attack would be a Phyric loss.

Since the former council races do listen to the human council at all, your point is false from the face of it. Not being popular with the Council races does not mean alone in the galaxy: an all human council is just as representative of all the non-Council races like the Volus, and far more likely to follow Shepard in establishing ties with the powerful races the Council abandoned (the Quarians, the Krogan, the Rachni).

Cerberus and the Alliance are distinct. What Cerberus does has never disqualified the Alliance, and vice versa.

The approval of the Turians, the Salarians, and the Asari are not necessary for galactic survival. Only the Turians are confrontational in the first place, the Asari are largely demilitarized and the Salarians more or less neutral.

I stand corrected then, but it seems clear to me that Cerberus has become a real threat in the eyes of the council and alliance based on the reunion with Anderson and The council. They reject Shepard, the Hero of the Citadel based on mere rumours about him working with Cerberus. The Citadel are not stupid, they wouldn't risk being seen as slandering a hero for nothing.
I don't think the average alien would make much of a distinction between humans, especialy as Cerberus infiltrates everything. People makes unfair generalisations, like with the few batarian terrorists and criminals ruining the whole races reputation.
Turians are no longer a immediate threat but why risk the powerfull council races cooperation for a terrorist organisation? The volus are politicaly tied with the turians. The quarians, krogan and rachni are not powerfull, they are all busy struggling for their survival.
Cerberus have infiltrated the Alliance and are therefore not distinct. Aliens knows this.
The asari and salarians have massive "soft power" (diplomacy, mass media, information, economy, research, etc). Combined with the military might of their turian allies they make the humans look realy small. Perhaps the reapers can be beat without them but why not try to get them on Shepards side anyway just to be sure? I mean the only thing Shepard knows about the reapers are that they are many, powerfull and coming soon. Strenght in numbers are always handy.
Sacrificing a terrorist organisation that almost every one hates anyway seems like a small price for galactic unity.

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote..The Council makes the aliens look bad.

OMG THE COUNCIL IS DOOMING THE ALIENS!!11!1!


(Actually, it kind of did. Their fault, though.)

And humanity should not be that short sighted. Why not learn from the councils misstake?

[Dean_the_Young]

Groups too stupid to differentiate between a speciest extremist group and a species are too stupid to desire as equals... especially when they have their own extremist groups within them.



Because the advantages of the Collector Base technology surpass those of the Council alone, both too humanity (ascendancy) and to the galaxy as a whole (better chance for everyone to survive with fewer casualties). They aren't even mutually exclusive choices, unless the Council so short sighted that it won't work with the Alliance for survival. In which case the Council is also too stupid to make a good partner.



The Eclipse sisters are Asari who can not be distinguished from other Asari out of uniform. Therefore, all species think the Eclipse are the same as the Asari.



Oh, wait, they don't. Nor do people think the Blood Pack is all Krogan plus some Vorcha. It's incredibly racist to think they would be too stupid to make a differentiation that humans have for hundreds of years.



The Volus are tied to the Turians because the Turians advance their interests: if Humans do a better job, then the appeal of the Turians fades.

The quarians are powerful: they have the largest fleet in the galaxy, greater than the Turians by far.

The Krogan are powerful: even without the genophage, unified they will be one of the greatest land powers in the galaxy.

The Rachni are powerful: one queen can make a colony in days, and they have had years to rebuild fleets.



The Asari believe in soft power, but the historically proven aspect of soft power is that it fails without hard power. The Asari hard power is the Destiny Ascension, without which they retreat from galactic security. Their economic strength only matters as much as others allow it to, as economic power has through history.



The Salarians do not have soft power. They have intelligence power. They lack hard power, which is why they ally with the Turians to compensate. With the Turians at a disadvantage, they have little reason to throw their fates in with the Turians in a fight that they will likely lose. A Phyric loss again.



Cerberus can help you win the Reaper War with lower losses for everyone if they play along, and without losing humanity if they are too stupid to value survival over working with Cerberus. And if they're that foolish, they have no claim to being wise enough for galactic governance.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote..The Council makes the aliens look bad.

OMG THE COUNCIL IS DOOMING THE ALIENS!!11!1!


(Actually, it kind of did. Their fault, though.)

And humanity should not be that short sighted. Why not learn from the councils misstake?

The Council's mistake was to rely on the Council's judgement and value themselves too much. Do not value the council or rely on them. Got it.