220 réponses à ce sujet

[SDNcN]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

That's because it was rushed to hell. I mean, they basically got away with disregarding the ultimate sacrifice, and even if it made everyone on here go, "WTF BIOWARE", nothing happened. Well, what could happen? Still, they actually did that.

All in all, Awakening was a good idea, but it was horrifically executed. 

Still cameos of characters from Origins or even references to what the character did would be limited due the possibility of playing a character that has no idea who they are and is not connected to any of it. I really don't see Bioware implementing enough throwbacks to Origins or giving those companions a prominent enough role to keep people playing the Warden happy. I also worry that attention would be diverted from the other option and the new character is left undeveloped.

ilrregardless of me believing a new character would be better, I'd rather them go all the way and fully develop a second story for the Warden or fully develop a new one independent of Origins.

Modifié par SDNcN, 15 mai 2010 - 01:54 .

[SDNcN]

WilliamShatner wrote...

The setting is boring and generic and wasn't anything interesting.

Besides people become attached to characters, not settings.  When was the last time you heard someone say about a sequel "I'm looking forward to seeing that field again!"

No, but I hear people say that they want to go explore the Tevinter Imperium, learn more about the Qunari, and go fight the Crows in Antiva all the time on this board.

Awakening does play better with Orlesian warden commander. In fact that may be who Bioware originally wanted as star of the expansion.

Actually  you would have played as the Warden in Awakening and would have carried over to the Orlesian though the Origins savefile if your character died. If I remember correctly that changed during development due to tech problems leading to the inabilityuse a new character in an existing campaignfile.

The fact that they had changed their mind and allowed us to continue our Wardens should speak for itself.

Yes, that they couldn't import your Origins save into a new Orlesian Warden so they let you play as a dead character so players wouldn't feel left out.

The fact that every ending for an imported character was left open with "his/her story isn't over" should
tell you that the idea of using them again in the future isn't unlikely.

DLC or a smaller second expansion is just as if not more likely given that Bioware has said they didn't plan on having the same character in all DA games.

Modifié par SDNcN, 15 mai 2010 - 02:17 .

[hexaligned]

WilliamShatner wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

Because Dragon Age is a setting not a collection of characters.

The setting is boring and generic and wasn't anything interesting.

Besides people become attached to characters, not settings.  When was the last time you heard someone say about a sequel "I'm looking forward to seeing that field again!"  BioWare created memorable and beloved characters with Dragon Age - use them!

It would be like Ian Fleming writing Live and Let Lie and saying "Hey I'm going to base this book in MI6 but I'm not going to use that James Bond guy everyone loved from the first book."

The characters were just as boring, generic, and uninteresting as the setting imo, especially if you want to start comparing this game to novels (which for some reason you seem to want to do).  And again in the video game world you're just wrong, sorry.  Why do people keep playing DnD games? Or Star War games?  Or any of other highly successfull game worlds that have 0 carry over?  It isn't so they can have one last digital date from their love in the last game in that setting.  It's because they enjoy the themes of the game world itself.

Modifié par relhart, 15 mai 2010 - 02:03 .

[WilliamShatner]

relhart wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

Because Dragon Age is a setting not a collection of characters.

The setting is boring and generic and wasn't anything interesting.

Besides people become attached to characters, not settings.  When was the last time you heard someone say about a sequel "I'm looking forward to seeing that field again!"  BioWare created memorable and beloved characters with Dragon Age - use them!

It would be like Ian Fleming writing Live and Let Lie and saying "Hey I'm going to base this book in MI6 but I'm not going to use that James Bond guy everyone loved from the first book."

The characters were just as boring, generic, and uninteresting as the setting imo, especially if you want to start comparing this game to novels (which for some reason you seem to want to do).  And again in the video game world you're just wrong, sorry.  Why do people keep playing DnD games? Or Star War games?  Or any of other highly successfull game worlds that have 0 carry over?  It isn't so they can have one last digital date from their love in the last game in that setting.  It's because they enjoy the themes of the game world itself.

Star Wars is unique because it has iconic and cool things such as lightsabres, X-Wings and John Williams' music that have been part of the public conscious for over 30 years and are unqiue to that universe.  I'm afraid the Dragon Age universe doesn't have anything that identifiable.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 15 mai 2010 - 02:18 .

[hexaligned]

Well we obviously want different things, such is life. I'm sure a sequel will be decent by todays standards regardless. (unless it's another rush job I guess) Looking back I guess this thread was initially about an expansion anyways lol, sorry OP. Honestly after awakenings, I'm not buying any other expansions regardless of what they are about.

[CybAnt1]

Dunno. To me it's an interesting question what they really consider as the longevity of this franchise.



For example, they've said Mass Effect is a trilogy. That's it. Three games, and no more ME. Shepard either will die a death that sticks in ME3, or go off rockets firing into the sunset.



Now we know they've committed to "two years of DlC" for DA, and although Mr. Priestly won't confirm, the # of hints that a DA 2 is in the works (whether that's what's coming in 2/2011 or not) are all over the place.



But, what interests me is the silence of their future plans for the franchise. I'm not talking about in the specific sense. "This is where you will go next in the next game. This is what characters will be there. It will star your Warden 1.0." I'm talking about in the generic sense.



Are they planning on turning Dragon Age into a massive franchise that could last 35 years like Dungeons & Dragons itself? Will they continue to promote it as both a PnP system and CRPG system? Improve the Toolset?



Ignoring the Ultima MMO(s), the Ultima games spanned from Ultima I in 1980 to Ultima IX in 1999; that was 19 years. Do they have the interest in sticking with it that long?



It's their own IP & ruleset. That means there's sooooo much they could do with it.



I see tons of potential in the franchise & setting. Frankly, obviously, I am not them, but if I were, I would take the flesh & bones of this setting and keep adding some meat to it -- then I can see it running twenty years. But not with three classes, three races, and one set of protagonists (the Wardens) fighting a fairly generic enemy (the Darkspawn) for nine games.



I've said what I've like to see (Oriental aspects, new classes, new monsters, different protagonists and adversaries, more choice-focused combat (revolving around vulnerabilities & strengths of adversaries), more weapon types, new races, more "usable" items, better customization, the mounts-cloaks-movement stuff, and a user-friendlier Toolset! so we get more mods, and maybe I'd even try a stab at it myself)



I'm hoping this game setting will be around for a long time, if only so I can keep seeing the kinds of "flesh" I'd like to see added to a not-altogether bad skeleton they've built. I just wish they'd even say what they plan to do with the setting beyond the next 2 years - again, generically, not specifically, speaking.

[Merci357]

CybAnt1 wrote...

For example, they've said Mass Effect is a trilogy. That's it. Three games, and no more ME. Shepard either will die a death that sticks in ME3, or go off rockets firing into the sunset.

Uhm, no.
Shepard's story is a Trilogy, Mass Effect will continue on.

see http://kotaku.com/54...er-trilogy-ends

Modifié par Merci357, 15 mai 2010 - 02:52 .

[Lintanis]

Think it will all boil down to how much money Dragon Age brings in. Just like all other EA games if it does well like the Sims it will be well backed, if not it will hit a big full stop

[CybAnt1]

Shepard's story is a Trilogy, Mass Effect will continue on

But in what form? As that interview doesn't exactly clarify. Will the next game(s) be kart racing, MMO, "pure" FPS/3rd-person shooter, space-battle-fleet games?

Anyway, I'm glad they've said Mass Effect has a future, I haven't ruled out jumping into the games, it's just that the things we discussed in the other thread make me ... hesitate.

I wish they'd have such a definitive statement regarding the Dragon Age franchise.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 15 mai 2010 - 03:09 .

[CybAnt1]

But KOTOR didn't launch with any future projections for the franchise and KOTOR2 and SWTOR now exist.

Not the greatest example, as they turned KOTOR 2 over to another developer (Obsidian), and it ended up without a real ending, and a lot of sketchy aspects. (Not to completely knock Obsidian, I don't think that was totally their fault.) 

And all I can say is ... I don't know if SWTOR MMO means the end of KOTOR SP games (i.e. no KOTOR 3), but it sure looks to me like it is. Blizzard hasn't exactly been doing more Warcraft RTSes since Warcraft 3 and the launch of the WoW MMO. (But it is cool to see Starcraft 2 coming out after however many aeons.) 

My nightmare scenario is that they launch a DA MMO that becomes the terminus for the setting, in the same way. 

[Master Shiori]

scyphozoa wrote...

Hmm, again, I feel like a real wet blanket posting my opinions here. But KOTOR didn't launch with any future projections for the franchise and KOTOR2 and SWTOR now exist. Jade Empire didn't launch with any future projections for the franchise.

I guess I feel two things.

1) People are holding Dragon Age to the standards and designs of Mass Effect. Mass Effect promised a persistent trilogy, and Dragon Age fans are just sort of expecting Dragon Age will be designed the same way, meaning they are expecting sequels and importing decisions - features that have never been promised or advertised for the DA franchise - and have been specifically advertised for the ME franchise.

2) I also feel that while wanting recurring characters is completely normal as a fan of the lore, it is completely unrealistic for game design. How can any company justify "instead of making a game that is going to grow the fan base of this franchise, we are going to create a game that targets a smaller demographic of core fans."

You simply cannot ask investors for money to make a niche product. If you make a product, it has to be stand-alone.

If anything, a DAO expansion pack is the single best opportunity to revisit DAO characters - as this requires and insures that players first own DAO.

I don't think you can call those who want to see their Warden and his/her companions again a "small demographic" without providing proof to back that up.
People who post in these forums represent only a small number of DA fanbase, and as far as I'm aware there has never been a poll that shows what a majority of fans want.

As for holding DA to Mass Effect's standards, people will compare future titles to what they have enjoyed, and will naturaly hope for a similar thrend. There are plenty of games that continue using the same cast of characters (more or less) and attract new fans with each title.
Considering how well DA:O sold I would think that even should Bioware decide to go down the ME route they would still create a popular game that people would enjoy.

Would making another expansion for Origins make sense? Of course it would.

Would carrying the Warden and his companions into a sequal also be possible? Indeed, if the writers consider it would make for a good story.

The only thing Bioware did promise to us about future DA titles is that they would be excellent games.
Anything else is pure speculation on our part.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 15 mai 2010 - 03:31 .

[Merci357]

CybAnt1 wrote...
But in what form? As that interview doesn't exactly clarify. Will the next game(s) be kart racing, MMO, "pure" FPS/3rd-person shooter, space-battle-fleet games?

Given BioWares track record in the last decade, I'd bet it will be something story driven again. (Noticed, I haven't said RPG, since RPG has little meaning for me. It's just a technical term.) Then again, besides kart racing, I wouldn't mind any of these games, if done well. A game universe as rich, diverse and fleshed out as MAss Effect could support different games quite well.

Anyway, I'm glad they've said Mass Effect has a future, I haven't ruled out jumping into the games, it's just that the things we discussed in the other thread make me ... hesitate.

I wish they'd have such a definitive statement regarding the Dragon Age franchise.

It boils down to the financial success, I guess. While ME is about two years older, the setting is a bit more established. Then again, both franchises have spawned spin off mini games (ME: Galaxies, DA: Journeys), comics, novels, and both are platinum games that sold in the millions, and both are supported by DLC. Doesn't look that bad for the future I'd say.

Not the greatest example, as they turned KOTOR 2 over to another developer (Obsidian), and it ended up without a real ending, and a lot of sketchy aspects. (Not to completely knock Obsidian, I don't think that was totally their fault.) 

And all I can say is ... I don't know if SWTOR MMO means the end of KOTOR SP games (i.e. no KOTOR 3), but it sure looks to me like it is. Blizzard hasn't exactly been doing more Warcraft RTSes since Warcraft 3 and the launch of the WoW MMO. (But it is cool to see Starcraft 2 coming out after however many aeons.) 

My nightmare scenario is that they launch a DA MMO that becomes the terminus for the setting, in the same way. 

I just don't see any MMO besides TOR in the next few years. I'm actually looking forward to it, a story driven MMO with full VO, is something new. But with WOW still going strong, and with Warhammer still out there for at least 2-3 years (isn't Mythic a part of BioWare since last year?), I just don't see any room for a DA (and even less for a ME) MMO.

Modifié par Merci357, 15 mai 2010 - 03:38 .

[Kail Ashton]

Kail Ashton wrote...

Hmmm would like either one more expansion or some fallout3 esc sized DLC(without the bugs!) while i don't mind the cheapy fribilous DLC so far, would like sumth'n with more meat, awakening had the right idea just way too rushed, which i see a 2nd expansion being as well

The new charecters from awakening were hardly scratched & everyone wants the old cast back, idealy one last DLC that combines everyone (within reason) for a grand finale than i'd feel better bout starting fresh in DA2

Lucy_Glitter wrote...


That's because it was rushed to hell. I mean, they basically got away with disregarding the ultimate sacrifice, and even if it made everyone on here go, "WTF BIOWARE", nothing happened. Well, what could happen? Still, they actually did that.

All in all, Awakening was a good idea, but it was horrifically executed. 

Don't make me sue you for plagerisim

[Brockololly]

I just think there are things left for the Warden to do beyond killing darkspawn and there is more to the culture of the Grey Wardens that I'd like to see explored while the PC is still a Warden. Personally, I'd love to have the Warden get resolution to the whole Morrigan storyline as well, in whatever form that may take.



As long as we're comparing DA to other games, Bioware has said from the start that DA is supposed to be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. The thing that I loved about the BG games was the continuity you had between titles with the same PC and mostly the same companions. I don't expect the DA games to have the same PC all throughout, but it would be nice to have the same PC and companions for at least one game to just give the Warden's story a sense of finality and closure (US Wardens the exception of course).



But its almost a certainty that Bioware is already well underway with whatever the next chapter of DA is- hopefully we'll know more come E3...

[gingerbill]

I would like to see a certain story line involving a character finished , i guess not everyone will have that though so its difficult but i think there should be an actual quality DLC finishing this off , one thats up to the standards of the original game and alot bettter than the current DLC. Be sad to never finsih that story line.



I would prefer DA2 to be a new character .

[Johnny Jaded]

@Brockololly, Shatner, and Shiori - You're missing the point regarding the Grey Wardens. They're an order established to combat the darkspawn threat, that is their duty whether they care about the darkspawn or not. Sure, our Wardens are perfectly capable of fighting whatever threat is set up for DA2 but that's not a Warden's job. Also, more importantly, (as I said in my first post) David Gaider has previously stated that any sequels he writes will not be about Blights, thus not about darkspawn and therefore will not involve the Wardens. It doesn't matter what you (or I, or any other fan) want, it's simply not going to happen.



As for Shatner's aspersion regarding the the DA franchise and characters, all those were pointless and unfair comparisons - Ian Fleming's books were about James Bond, Mass Effect is about Shepard, Lethal Weapon were about Riggs and Murtaugh - they all revolve around the central character. DA was established as a franchise set in a specific time period - the Dragon Age - with the Warden's being just one of numerous stories to tell. It's better to consider DA a setting like Forgotten Realms (BG, NWN, IWD etc) - each game is set in the same world but contains a different story and different PC.



Obviously, I want to see closure with the Morrigan thing for my characters that went that route and all the other loose ends but people need to accept that the Warden (most likely) is not returning in any sequel

[Johnny Jaded]

Ooh my first double post ever, I feel all tingly frsutrated inside

Modifié par Johnny Jaded, 15 mai 2010 - 06:23 .

[Feraele]

Johnny Jaded wrote...

I think the date announced in those fliers that came with Awakening is far too soon for a sequel of the calibre BioWare gained a reputation with. Assuming they started working on it from the time DA:O was released, it would be 15 months (obviously its possible they started work on it earlier given that the PC version was originally supposed to come out March last year) which seems to me like it would be a rush job especially if they wish to upgrade the engine like certain rumours suggest.
I would have thought it would be another expansion pack but as Awakening doesn't have an epilogue save like Origins, it seems unlikely to be the case. Not to mention that your character becomes overpowered.

In regards to the Warden and the sequel, there's absolutely no chance of playing your Warden in it. David Gaider has stated that any sequels he writes will have nothing to do with Blights and therefore little-to-nothing to do with the Grey Wardens and thus a whole new player character - which I personally feel is best, although I would like to see certain loose ends tied up and gain closure

Well I am glad to see confirmed what I have suspected since the Ultimate Sacrifice episode....that things will not continue on...other stories other lands,  new characters will happen instead. 

Don't get me wrong..it would have been nice to have done..."the continuing adventures of MyWarden"....but it has been stated a few times that DA is a franchise, and therefore..anything pretty much goes as to which direction or directions the whole thing takes.

I'll hang around for awhile just to see how this pans out...if I no likee...I won't partake.

[tom2504]

@ Johnny

No blight = no Darkspawn, granted.

That doesn't necessarily mean no Warden though, you pretty much said it yourself there, David Gaider said no sequel would be about the BLIGHT, he didn't say no Sequel would be about the Grey Wardens. Surely if you think the logic is simple enough to say; No blight = No Grey Wardens, David Gaider would have stated that himself, and oppose to saying 'No sequel will be about the blight' instead 'No sequel will be about the Grey Wardens'.

Take Shale, she was so inspired by you ending the blight that she sought the mages help in order to restore her to a human form.

Given that ...

What about Sten? His entire mindset on you changed after you end the blight, he went back to his homeland with a completely new outlook on the Grey Wardens, perhaps he'll ask for their assistance, should the Qunari people be under threat, whatever it may be.

Just ideas here but there's no reason why your Warden cannot continue into further Dragon Age games.

The Grey Warden's are what they are because they have the ability to sense the Darkspawn and the power to slay an Archdemon, they're already skilled fighters and thus have no obligation to ONLY fight the Darkspawn.

Modifié par tom2504, 15 mai 2010 - 07:03 .

[Feraele]

blademaster7 wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...



Which will be rushed and shallow?

And how would an expansion be any better? They didn't seem to put too much effort into Awakening and they're certainly not putting effort(or thought) into crap like Darkspawn Chronicles.



They don't have enough resources to make an expansion worthwhile. What would you expect?



Warden: Hey look Leliana, a tree!

Leliana: Now that you clicked on it, we should talk.

I would much rather have them work on a full fledged sequel rather than have them split into groups and keep working on half-assed products.

Indoctrination
wrote...

Do you really want BioWare to go fishing for some excuse for the bring the darkspawn back as the consuming force of evil again?

That's not the reason Brockololly want's to play as the Warden. He probably doesn't even give a sh!t about darkspawn. Read his post again.

I think my disappointment with the port over to Awakening..was the short cutted "so-called continuity".     It felt like they pared it down to the bare minimum.    

I STILL suspect that the new companions were originally set up to be love interests..as I have gotten both Justice and Anders..to 100 LOVE.     That came up and I looked at it and ...went hmmmm.

I think due to time..budget ..EA cracking the whip and possibly being stingy with time and money...Awakening is the result.    Its playable...there are certain indications within that expansion that make me think that Oghren...will NEVER ever die......so something about Ohgren seems to want to continue on...burping and farting into the future.     Yes I have him as a party member...YES I find him annoying...he's the hardest one in Awakening to get influence for, and I really dislike having to put THAT much effort into coddling him, so he'll cough up his danged quest.   

The other companions in Awakening are laughably easy to hit 100 influence with...as opposed to Oghren.

I find the tree clicking and whatnot to be a bit annoying as well...it feels unnatural, as opposed to the camp talks where you could approach a companion and see if they had anything new to say.

I think things are going to more than likely drasticly change,   and as others have already stated in this thread,   there are alot of loose threads,  flapping about in the wind.

They are probably there to entice us to keep buying the latest dlc, or expansion, or sequel.     

I will TRULY be disappointed if..we don't get to see the other lands in Origins..such as Orlais,  Seheron,  Par Vollen,  Kal Sharok,  Arlathan,  Weisshaupt...and other places like that.

Origins drew me in..and is keeping me here.   It was well done.    I hope that Bioware sticks to that level of quality..and  that we don't get some pared down,  pale shadow as Awakening was....

I can deal with the bugs and glitches I have come across, yes they frustrate me sometimes, but I have played through so many times now...it doesn't faze me.   

Good story telling is what Bioware is about...please don't take that away.

[Merci357]

Well, if you played Warden's Keep, the story told there is basically a planed rebellion of Wardens against the King of Ferelden, no Darkspawn involved. That said, our Warden, especially as the Warden Commander of Amaranthine would respond to any possible threat to his land or Ferelden as a whole, it's simply his duty as a landlord. The Wardens story isn't fully told, not everything in his/her story has to revolve around Darkspawns or Blights, and at least I'd like to see some sort of closure before moving on.

Though I agree, it would be much easier to tell a new story in the sequel. A non-warden Hero could make a better central character for a possible series, and if Dragon Age is in any form successful, a recurring hero wouldn't rule out different tales of different characters. Just think Forgotten Realms.

[Master Shiori]

Johnny Jaded wrote...

@Brockololly, Shatner, and Shiori - You're missing the point regarding the Grey Wardens. They're an order established to combat the darkspawn threat, that is their duty whether they care about the darkspawn or not. Sure, our Wardens are perfectly capable of fighting whatever threat is set up for DA2 but that's not a Warden's job. Also, more importantly, (as I said in my first post) David Gaider has previously stated that any sequels he writes will not be about Blights, thus not about darkspawn and therefore will not involve the Wardens. It doesn't matter what you (or I, or any other fan) want, it's simply not going to happen.

As for Shatner's aspersion regarding the the DA franchise and characters, all those were pointless and unfair comparisons - Ian Fleming's books were about James Bond, Mass Effect is about Shepard, Lethal Weapon were about Riggs and Murtaugh - they all revolve around the central character. DA was established as a franchise set in a specific time period - the Dragon Age - with the Warden's being just one of numerous stories to tell. It's better to consider DA a setting like Forgotten Realms (BG, NWN, IWD etc) - each game is set in the same world but contains a different story and different PC.

Obviously, I want to see closure with the Morrigan thing for my characters that went that route and all the other loose ends but people need to accept that the Warden (most likely) is not returning in any sequel

I understand what you're trying to say about the Wardens as an order, but you seem to be missing a few important details.

1) Several centuries can pass between Blights. A lot of Grey Wardens can therefore spend their entire career without ever seeing a Blight. What exactly do you suppose they do during that time? Sure, they probably organize expeditions into the Deep Roads or seek out potential recruits, but without a Blight to occupy them they could just as well be free to pursue their own missions, provided they don't leave the order. With our Warden having dealt with the Blight and the Darkspawn that remained (Mother and the Architect) I'd imagine he/she would be free to do whatever he/she wished.

2) In some places Wardens have other duties then simply killing Darkspawn. In Anderfels they are the unofficial rulers of that nation. In Arling of Amaranthine they rule openly, even if the pc leaves his duties as the Warden Commander behind.
I could easily see such an organization getting involved in local politics, especially if those politics threaten the Warden's future and mission. Warden's Peak shows us just such an instance and, as far as we know, there is nothing that say this didn't happen before or couldn't happen again in the future (although having Wardens exiled from a country is ceirtainly a precedent).

As for Warden not returning, that is ceirtainly a possibility. Still if I as a writer wanted to further explore Morrigan's story then what better character to do that then the one who started the whole thing in the first place. It is after all this character (the Warden) through which the players are emotionaly invested in Morrigan's story and using him again would ceirtainly offer better emotional payoff then a new character who has no connection to Morrigan at all.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 15 mai 2010 - 07:46 .

[Feraele]

relhart wrote...

The way I see it is this. If you liked the old companions the writers made, chances are high you will like the new ones they make too. If the entire basis for your argument is an (in my eyes) unhealthy emotional attatchment to fictional characters, I don't think Bioware is obligated to keep on fueling that, and I don't think the rest of the customer base should have to suffer through contrived, grasping at straws plots because of it.

Unhealthy emotional attachment? O.o

Just because someone is attached to their character and the future doings of that character ..doesn't mean thats unhealthy..

I've made 21 characters thus far,   I am proud of every one of them.    I am INVESTED in how this turns out..because I did the work to get them there..to the "end". 

When you are invested in something..that means you want to see some sort of closure or conclusion that makes sense in the whole story picture..   thus far we have seen plot holes, many flapping loose ends, promises that appeared in epilogues that never materialized..etc.

This is a roleplay game..its a story...just like a book or a movie, that you like really well, you want to see the ending...and you want that ending to be something you can justify and live with...for immersion's sake.

Anything else is just not good enough.