220 réponses à ce sujet

[tom2504]

Feraele wrote...

relhart wrote...

The way I see it is this. If you liked the old companions the writers made, chances are high you will like the new ones they make too. If the entire basis for your argument is an (in my eyes) unhealthy emotional attatchment to fictional characters, I don't think Bioware is obligated to keep on fueling that, and I don't think the rest of the customer base should have to suffer through contrived, grasping at straws plots because of it.

Unhealthy emotional attachment? O.o

Just because someone is attached to their character and the future doings of that character ..doesn't mean thats unhealthy..

I've made 21 characters thus far,   I am proud of every one of them.    I am INVESTED in how this turns out..because I did the work to get them there..to the "end". 

When you are invested in something..that means you want to see some sort of closure or conclusion that makes sense in the whole story picture..   thus far we have seen plot holes, many flapping loose ends, promises that appeared in epilogues that never materialized..etc.

This is a roleplay game..its a story...just like a book or a movie, that you like really well, you want to see the ending...and you want that ending to be something you can justify and live with...for immersion's sake.

Anything else is just not good enough.

At the risk of ass-kissing, that's a rather good point. RPG's are basically movies where you determine the outcome of things, some movies affect people's lives like you wouldn't believe and on that basis I think It's perfectly natural to be emotionally attatched to your entire party or just one of them.

[Feraele]

@ CybAnt1



Methinks I read somewhere in relation to DA and how many stories (or whatever) for this franchise Ray (CEO) stated something about 17 and many many more.



Hopefully..they are not all stand-alone short stories.



Continuity is what I am looking for...and I have a hunch I am going to be greatly disappointed..after having experienced what Awakening had to offer.



THE BIG STORY would be, Morrigan and her Old God child, and how that pans out.



Can Bioware ignore this large story and just do little nothing stories forever after? I guess we'll see whats coming for the future.



I still haven't bought any of Mr Gaider's books, as I consider them to be spoilers in (for me hehe) I would rather discover for myself, and thats how I related to DA, discovery...exploration, connection to characters and their fates...?new adventures?



We'll have to see. They say they want to do things that their customers favour......and discard things that aren't that popular. Again we'll have to see if they put their money where their mouth is.

[Onyx Jaguar]

If the Big story would negate our choices than I would hope that all future Dragon Age sequels would be self contained.

[Feraele]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

If the Big story would negate our choices than I would hope that all future Dragon Age sequels would be self contained.

Choices have already been ignored, or passed over..if you remember the lonnnnnnng discussion about the Ultimate Sacrifice...that never, ever got a response.    We were ignored until the day they decided to give us the truth on the Dragon Age Live Broadcast.     Couple short sentences...is what we got.  

I won't go into rehashing all the whys and wherefores of that thread,  but it was a continuity and plot issue for alot of people.

I have only done one Ultimate Sacrifice, and that was that...its not an option I will access again, so in otherwords pretty much a useless feature.    The epilogue story indicated an honourable burial and a statue placement at Vigil's keep.

It "could have " been an opening cut-scene..with the camera possibly panning the cemetary at Weisshaup, and a view of the statue erected in memory of the selfless who gave their life to save Ferelden.

AT ANY RATE...coulda shoulda woulda.

They missed the mark on this one.   And a few other things

[Johnny Jaded]

Master Shiori wrote...
I understand what you're trying to say about the Wardens as an order, but you seem to be missing a few important details.

1) Several centuries can pass between Blights. A lot of Grey Wardens can therefore spend their entire career without ever seeing a Blight. What exactly do you suppose they do during that time? Sure, they probably organize expeditions into the Deep Roads or seek out potential recruits, but without a Blight to occupy them they could just as well be free to pursue their own missions, provided they don't leave the order. With our Warden having dealt with the Blight and the Darkspawn that remained (Mother and the Architect) I'd imagine he/she would be free to do whatever he/she wished.

That doesn't mean the Warden will or even should carry into the sequel. Human Noble would most likely want to return to Highever or their royal lover; Dwarves would likely want to return to Orzammar; City Elves to the Alienage, Dalish to their clan and mages to the (newly freed) tower; in order to help their respective peoples or fulfil personal goals. Obviously, not everyone will want their Warden to return home and would rather they had other adventures but, really, all that is irrelevant because their story (namely, that of defeating the Blight and the darkspawn) is done - which is what David Gaider has said (whether it was in the same post as the "sequel = no Blight" or a seperate one I can't quite remember, but I remember being relieved when that was revealed)

Master Shiori wrote...
2) In some places Wardens have other duties then simply killing Darkspawn. In Anderfels they are the unofficial rulers of that nation. In Arling of Amaranthine they rule openly, even if the pc leaves his duties as the Warden Commander behind.
I could easily see such an organization getting involved in local politics, especially if those politics threaten the Warden's future and mission. Warden's Peak shows us just such an instance and, as far as we know, there is nothing that say this didn't happen before or couldn't happen again in the future (although having Wardens exiled from a country is ceirtainly a precedent).

Except DA:O was set in Ferelden not the Anderfels. As for Sophia Dryden, the difference is that, prior to becoming a  warden, she was a contender for the throne and the whole rebellion was a personal vendetta that she managed to manipulate the other wardens into following and not so much a "wardens getting involved with politics" thing in general. Dialogue choices after the flashbacks in WK coupled with things said in The Calling tell how the Wardens prefer to remain neutral in such affairs.

Master Shiori wrote...
As for Warden not returning, that is ceirtainly a possibility. Still if I as a writer wanted to further explore Morrigan's story then what better character to do that then the one who started the whole thing in the  first place. It is after all this character (the Warden) through which  the players are emotionaly invested in Morrigan's story and using him
again would ceirtainly offer better emotional payoff then a new  character who has no connection to Morrigan at all.

While I agree, I think that would be better suited to an expansion if we're to have our warden tie up that loose end. The problem being I don't think an expansion is quite big enough to cover the scope of that storyline. Catch 22 on that one.

Another thing, that hasn't really been mentioned so far is how BioWare would go about having the Warden start the DA2 story in terms of game mechanics. You can't really have the warden start out as the overpowered being they are and would have to strip them of all abilites to make level progression work (if it's to follow the typical rpg archetype). But the various plot devices that can be used to explain such things (ie. amnesia or waking up in some dungeon) are awfully contrived. And BioWare know better than to use such.
As I've said before and Merci357 also said. It's better to think of Dragon Age in terms of the Forgotten Realms - as a setting - each game being set in the same world but starring different PCs

Modifié par Johnny Jaded, 15 mai 2010 - 09:19 .

[Master Shiori]

Johnny Jaded wrote...

That doesn't mean the Warden will or even should carry into the sequel. Human Noble would most likely want to return to Highever or their royal lover; Dwarves would likely want to return to Orzammar; City Elves to the Alienage, Dalish to their clan and mages to the (newly freed) tower; in order to help their respective peoples or fulfil personal goals. Obviously, not everyone will want their Warden to return home and would rather they had other adventures but, really, all that is irrelevant because their story (namely, that of defeating the Blight and the darkspawn) is done - which is what David Gaider has said (whether it was in the same post as the "sequel = no Blight" or a seperate one I can't quite remember, but I remember being relieved when that was revealed)

What the Warden does after the Blight is up to the player. Awakening sees your Warden from Origins leave Ferelden and says your story isn't over, so that leaves the option of using him/her again in the future open.

Johnny Jaded wrote...
Except DA:O was set in Ferelden not the Anderfels. As for Sophia Dryden, the difference is that, prior to becoming a  warden,
she was a contender for the throne and the whole rebellion was a
personal vendetta that she managed to manipulate the other wardens into
following and not so much a "wardens getting involved with politics"
thing in general. Dialogue choices after the flashbacks in WK coupled
with things said in The Calling tell how the Wardens prefer to remain
neutral in such affairs.

Just because they prefer to remain neutral (which is understandable given their role) doesn't man that they couldn't become involved as a result of someone's machinations.

Johnny Jaded wrote...
While I agree, I think that would be better suited to a DLC if we're to have our warden tie up that loose end. The problem being I don't think an expansion is quite big enough to cover the scope of that storyline. Catch 22 on that one.

Hmm, considering the size of current DLC like Return to Ostagar I don't think wrapping Morrigan's story in a DLC would be an option.
Expansion sounds more likely.
A sequal could also be an option but only if Morrigan's story wasn't the main focus of the game, but rather a questchain that ties in with the main plot and enriches it.
Think more along the lines of Urn of Sacred Ashes or Arl of Redcliffe in Origins.

Johnny Jaded wrote...
Another thing, that hasn't really been mentioned so far is how BioWare would go about having the Warden start the DA2 story in terms of game mechanics. You can't really have the warden start out as the overpowered being they are and would have to strip them of all abilites to make level progression work (if it's to follow the typical rpg archetype). But the various plot devices that can be used to explain such things (ie. amnesia or waking up in some dungeon) are awfully contrived. And BioWare know better than to use such.

Bioware has used such plot devices before, so it wouldn't exactly be a new thing for them.
It could work as long as the explanation is plausible. That, however, is up to the writers.

I'll just repeat my thoughts:

Both options (starting from scratch or continuation with the Warden from Origins) are possible given how Awakening has ended. Both have their advantages and drawbacks.
It's up to the writers to decide what appeals to them more.

[Johnny Jaded]

Master Shiori wrote...
What the Warden does after the Blight is up to the player. Awakening sees your Warden from Origins leave Ferelden and says your story isn't over, so that leaves the option of using him/her again in the future open.

BioWare also did that with NWN and both its expansions. They just have a problem with officially stating in game that the character is done, mainly because another expansion is always a possibility.

Master Shiori wrote...

Johnny Jaded wrote...
While I agree, I think that would be better suited to a DLC if we're to have our warden tie up that loose end. The problem being I don't think an expansion is quite big enough to cover the scope of that storyline. Catch 22 on that one.

Hmm, considering the size of current DLC like Return to Ostagar I don't think wrapping Morrigan's story in a DLC would be an option.
Expansion sounds more likely.
A sequal could also be an option but only if Morrigan's story wasn't the main focus of the game, but rather a questchain that ties in with the main plot and enriches it.
Think more along the lines of Urn of Sacred Ashes or Arl of Redcliffe in Origins.

Ah, I meant expansion not DLC. DLC definitely won't be big enough. Expansion is the minimum they'd have to do but I don't think that's quite big enough given the possiblilite with the DR.

Master Shiori wrote...

Johnny Jaded wrote...
Another thing, that hasn't really been mentioned so far is how BioWare would go about having the Warden start the DA2 story in terms of game mechanics. You can't really have the warden start out as the overpowered being they are and would have to strip them of all abilites to make level progression work (if it's to follow the typical rpg archetype). But the various plot devices that can be used to explain such things (ie. amnesia or waking up in some dungeon) are awfully contrived. And BioWare know better than to use such.

Bioware has used such plot devices before, so it wouldn't exactly be a new thing for them.
It could work as long as the explanation is plausible. That, however, is up to the writers.

And look at just how contrived they were. Some cliches need to die

Master Shiori wrote...
I'll just repeat my thoughts:

Both options (starting from scratch or continuation with the Warden from Origins) are possible given how Awakening has ended. Both have their advantages and drawbacks.
It's up to the writers to decide what appeals to them more.

Both are possible from what was said in-game, yes. The second isn't given Gaider seems in favour of the first going by his responses to threads like these (this is, of course, assuming he's kept on as the lead writer)

[Master Shiori]

Johnny Jaded wrote...

Both are possible from what was said in-game, yes. The second isn't given Gaider seems in favour of the first going by his responses to threads like these (this is, of course, assuming he's kept on as the lead writer)

Given his latest answer to such a question from a few days ago I am not quite sure he still prefers it. Sounds more like he's keeping his options open.

David Gaider wrote...
Well, all I'm saying is that there are many possibilities. Continuing
the storyline with the same characters and same continuity has its
advantages, certainly, but also its drawbacks -- many of which people
have already outlined. Selecting a canon timeline or simply starting
with something completely different also has its advantages and
drawbacks. It can seem a little bit like "damned if you do, damned if
you don't" but ultimately I'd like to think there are a lot of ways we
could go, and each of them has things which make that choice attractive
to me as a writer.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 15 mai 2010 - 09:51 .

[Swoo]

Just to pipe in, the best storytellers know how to use smoke and mirrors. I trust nothing until it hit's my screen.



Remember, Shep's story was over in ME2 from the first teaser ;P

[Johnny Jaded]

Master Shiori wrote...
Given his latest answer to such a question from a few days ago I am not quite sure he still prefers it. Sounds more like he's keeping his options open.

David Gaider wrote...
Well, all I'm saying is that there are many possibilities. Continuing
the storyline with the same characters and same continuity has its
advantages, certainly, but also its drawbacks -- many of which people
have already outlined. Selecting a canon timeline or simply starting
with something completely different also has its advantages and
drawbacks. It can seem a little bit like "damned if you do, damned if
you don't" but ultimately I'd like to think there are a lot of ways we
could go, and each of them has things which make that choice attractive
to me as a writer.

Ah, writers be so fickle these days
It's obviously wiser to keep options open, but I personally think a new character would be better suited for the sequel. Having the warden fight something other than darkspawn as the primarily threat detracts from the whole point of the Grey Wardens existence

[Seagloom]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

 Is anyone else more wishing for a last expansion? With a certain someone? With all your companions one last time?

Yes, I am wishing for another expansion to wrap up the Origins character properly. I *still* haven't spared time to play Awakening but I know well how many loose ends it leaves and its total lack of resolving relationships properly with certain party members in the game and most endings. I want those plot threads resolved because I'm not keen on playing the Warden again in a DA2. I want a fresh start in another location and as another wrote in this thread, I think a character's story can only go so far before tales of their journeys jump the shark. There is also a practical consideration in that the idea of a DA2 in February 2011 makes me nervous. After reading of the bug ridden train wreck that Awakening is on this site and others, I rather they keep the scale small.

[Fntsybks]

I think that most plotlines could easily incorporate the Warden - any two sides in a war would naturally look towards the "Hero of Fereldan" to be their general - as he did just end a Blight in the shortest time period ever. With the epilogues from Awakening all having something along the lines of "was not seen again" or "story probably isn't over" it isn't too hard to imagine the PC becoming involved in any future conflict. If Morrigan and the Old God are involved, it becomes even easier, as Morrigan would look towards you - especially if you got her up to love, and whoever fights against her would see that you know her, and the Old God best - and are best prepared to lead the fight against her and the Old God.

[Lucy Glitter]

Seagloom wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

 Is anyone else more wishing for a last expansion? With a certain someone? With all your companions one last time?

Yes, I am wishing for another expansion to wrap up the Origins character properly. I *still* haven't spared time to play Awakening but I know well how many loose ends it leaves and its total lack of resolving relationships properly with certain party members in the game and most endings. I want those plot threads resolved because I'm not keen on playing the Warden again in a DA2. I want a fresh start in another location and as another wrote in this thread, I think a character's story can only go so far before tales of their journeys jump the shark. There is also a practical consideration in that the idea of a DA2 in February 2011 makes me nervous. After reading of the bug ridden train wreck that Awakening is on this site and others, I rather they keep the scale small.

This is a very good post. Very much agree. I just want a new story and a fresh start in DA2, but I also just want to see a conclusion with our Warden.

I mean, it wouldn't be hard for us to see (insert name here) again, and still leave their whole plot open. Perhaps they haven't had their child yet, who knows? You can still rectify things with (insert name here) and with the main plot. Gosh. Don't just trash everything and go, "NEW GAME!" because if they do do that. I think I will just give up on BioWare entirely.

Awakening is fun, but if you are like me (which I assume you are) in the sense you want to see your old companions, you want some nice new companions and you want a bug-free game, then, yeah, it's no good

[Brockololly]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

This is a very good post. Very much agree. I just want a new story and a fresh start in DA2, but I also just want to see a conclusion with our Warden.

I mean, it wouldn't be hard for us to see (insert name here) again, and still leave their whole plot open. Perhaps they haven't had their child yet, who knows? You can still rectify things with (insert name here) and with the main plot. Gosh. Don't just trash everything and go, "NEW GAME!" because if they do do that. I think I will just give up on BioWare entirely.

Awakening is fun, but if you are like me (which I assume you are) in the sense you want to see your old companions, you want some nice new companions and you want a bug-free game, then, yeah, it's no good

I'd be ok with the Warden's story getting a conclusion in an expansion pack, except for the fact that Awakening kind of blew my confidence in Bioware being able to make a solid expansion pack. You figure the BIG loose end from Origins has to do with a certain sneaky witch thief and the possibility of her having a certain unique kind of offspring.

Considering how Awakening rushed the story of the Architect, do we really think Bioware could pull off this certain apostate's story in an ex-pack in a satisfying way? NOt to mention they'd need to bring Claudia Black and likely the other Origins VA's back and with only an expansion pack budget? I'm not optimistic they could do all that in an ex-pack.

If Bioware could wrap up the Warden's and the other Origins companions' tales in a quality, Throne of Bhaal type expansion, I'd be first to pre-order that bad boy. But at least how I have things envisioned in my head and how Awakening turned out, I'd rather they just let the Warden and the other companions have their stories given some closure and finality in a full fledged, full budget sequel.

But if Bioware just gives us more alternate universe or Feast Day type DLC before going to some unrelated new Hero in DA2....bleh,  I'd be right with you Lucy in giving up on Bioware.

[Lucy Glitter]

I think it was because they rushed it to the max, which, I will blame EA for, because everyone hates the big guy. If they didn't rush that exp, it would have been really good.



If they just get a bigger time limit, I am sure they wouyld make a sound last exp. I mean, most of their fantasy games have two expansion packs. Well, I mean NWN did, and I hope it'll be like NWN in that regard; first exp sucked, second one was amazingly awesome and rectified everything.



Cept save not having new companions.

[Lucy Glitter]

i think it did pretty well, it just got bad reviews.

[Brockololly]

scyphozoa wrote...

I found it very surprising that Awakenings was released only ~5 months after DAO launched. That is an unusually fast turnaround for an expansion pack. I am hoping Awakening did well enough commercially to justify another expansion, with more time and resources.

Yeah, the thing is though supposedly they were working on Awakening for a little over a year though. I guess as far as DA2 or whatever the mysterious 2/1/2011 title is they've probably been working on that for a while too. I'd guess if they've got separate teams and all, they likely started working on DA2 at least a little back in early 2009 or maybe even late 2008 before Origins was initially delayed to November 09. 

I'm just hoping whatever comes next is more in line with Origins quality and not the rush job that Awakening was. Optimism people! Stay positive!

[Seagloom]

I liked Shadows of Undrentide. Hordes of the Underdark did have Valen and Nathyrra. They were new. I can't deny SoU wasn't an amazing expansion though. I thought it was just okay.

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

This is a very good post. Very much agree. I just want a new story and a fresh start in DA2, but I also just want to see a conclusion with our Warden.

I mean, it wouldn't be hard for us to see (insert name here) again, and still leave their whole plot open. Perhaps they haven't had their child yet, who knows? You can still rectify things with (insert name here) and with the main plot. Gosh. Don't just trash everything and go, "NEW GAME!" because if they do do that. I think I will just give up on BioWare entirely.

Awakening is fun, but if you are like me (which I assume you are) in the sense you want to see your old companions, you want some nice new companions and you want a bug-free game, then, yeah, it's no good

That would be nice. Sadly, Brockololly has a point. The budget for a second expansion pack will likely be too small for the kind of closure we would want. I don't expect BioWare to carry on the Warden's story in DA2 either. There is a good chance Awakening's ending is all we get. If so, I will be extremely disappointed too. It would have been better if Awakening let Origins' endings stand and focused solely on an Orlesian Warden. Since that wasn't the case, we are where we are.

I do want to see the old crew come back as my original characters. I want a happy and *final* ending for them. At the very least final. It just doesn't seem like we're going to get that though. I would love my pessimism to be proven wrong, of course.

Modifié par Seagloom, 16 mai 2010 - 11:37 .

[Lucy Glitter]

Seagloom wrote...

I liked Shadows of Undrentide. Hordes of the Underdark did have Valen and Nathyrra. They were new. I can't deny SoU wasn't an amazing expansion though. I thought it was just okay.
 
...

That would be nice. Sadly, Brockololly has a point. The budget for a second expansion pack will likely be too small for the kind of closure we would want. I don't expect BioWare to carry on the Warden's story in DA2 either. There is a good chance Awakening's ending is all we get. If so, I will be extremely disappointed too. It would have been better if Awakening let Origins' endings stand and focused solely on an Orlesian Warden. Since that wasn't the case, we are where we are.

I do want to see the old crew come back as my original characters. I want a happy and *final* ending for them. At the very least final. It just doesn't seem like we're going to get that though. I would love my pessimism to be proven wrong, of course.

Expansions do get an alright budget. I mean, youknowwho's story could be tied up in the timelength of Awakening, and the child could still be left open for the sequel. I mean, that's what I think would be best.

I just don't want to see Kotor2 happen again. I mean, it really added to Kotor1. I like TSL more than just Kotor. 'Cept they were just like, "nah" and never bothered to make a last installment. If they just end Awakening... with Awakening, then what? What a crappy ending. They should have stopped it at Origins, then.

[Seagloom]

TSL did drop the ball on that. If you were LS the whole order still bites it and the galaxy is verging on collapse. If you were DS, getting the Star Forge apparently meant nothing and no explanation is given as to why it was abandoned. I enjoyed TSL more than KotOR (at least until the endgame), but the ball was dropped hard on connecting both games.



Well, you already know where I stand. If BioWare can pull off an expansion to wrap up at least the most important loose ends, then I'm cool with it. They did it with ToB so it is theoretically possible. Honestly, I would prefer a DA2 without any connection, you know who and the child never showing up included, than I would a disjointed connection to Origins ala TSL.

[WilliamShatner]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

I liked Shadows of Undrentide. Hordes of the Underdark did have Valen and Nathyrra. They were new. I can't deny SoU wasn't an amazing expansion though. I thought it was just okay.
 
...

That would be nice. Sadly, Brockololly has a point. The budget for a second expansion pack will likely be too small for the kind of closure we would want. I don't expect BioWare to carry on the Warden's story in DA2 either. There is a good chance Awakening's ending is all we get. If so, I will be extremely disappointed too. It would have been better if Awakening let Origins' endings stand and focused solely on an Orlesian Warden. Since that wasn't the case, we are where we are.

I do want to see the old crew come back as my original characters. I want a happy and *final* ending for them. At the very least final. It just doesn't seem like we're going to get that though. I would love my pessimism to be proven wrong, of course.

Expansions do get an alright budget. I mean, youknowwho's story could be tied up in the timelength of Awakening, and the child could still be left open for the sequel. I mean, that's what I think would be best.

I just don't want to see Kotor2 happen again. I mean, it really added to Kotor1. I like TSL more than just Kotor. 'Cept they were just like, "nah" and never bothered to make a last installment. If they just end Awakening... with Awakening, then what? What a crappy ending. They should have stopped it at Origins, then.

Ironically KOTOR 2 seemed to be more about what Revan did in KOTOR and his/her action's permeate the universe more than ME2 did to ME1 or DA:O:A to :DA:O.