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World's most powerful biotic...got raped?


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#26
Guest_yorkj86_*

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enormousmoonboots wrote...

Azint wrote...

The last time this was brought up, the thread was locked. I wonder if the same thing will happen...

I never understood that. It's something that actually happened to a character in the actual game, why is talking about it forbidden? The thread was a little distasteful, but no more than the actual scene itself (everyone else expresses an opinion or something like that in their dialog spots...Jack talks about being raped. I don't really think those should be equivalent).


People tend to start getting nasty about Jack and her fanbase, thus starting inter-fanbase warfare.

It's already starting.

#27
Dokarqt

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Virtual winter wrote...

For a moment I thought this was about the Biotic God.



#28
Guest_yorkj86_*

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LordMandalore wrote...

Who the hell would want to have sex with Jack?


<_<  Keep on trollin'.

#29
Collider

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People tend to start getting nasty about Jack and her fanbase, thus starting inter-fanbase warfare.

It's already starting.
[

I honestly rarely see this ever. On this forum at least. Outside of these kinds of threads.

Modifié par Collider, 16 mai 2010 - 10:21 .


#30
CherryColaLola

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LordMandalore wrote...

Who the hell would want to have sex with Jack?


I bet she smells like sweaty cabbage.

#31
SpiderFan1217

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Jack was raped? When did she say this?

#32
Jackal904

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Darc_Requiem wrote...

The impression I got was that several inmates attacked her at once and she killed a few before being overwhelmed. Purgatory isn't filled with choir boys. It's filled with some of the most dangerous criminals in the Terminus Systems. That said, I'm almost certain that they knocked her unconscious.


Yeah I think they quickly jumped her and knocked her out, and still she was able to kill two of them. Although when Jack brings up this scene, she never specifically says she got raped, but it sure as hell is implied. And I garauntee 99% of people thought she was raped when they first heard Jack mention it. Plus she mentions she was used several times before Purgatory, which also implies rape. Especially when she says she was used for sex.

Modifié par Jackal904, 16 mai 2010 - 10:26 .


#33
CherryColaLola

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SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Jack was raped? When did she say this?


She infers it when you speak to her aboard the Normandy and ask her about her past.  I can't remember her exact words but she says the pirates that picked her up after drifting "used her and then sold her."

She never says "rape" and I suppose those pirates just "used" her for her excellent cooking and sewing skills. *shrugs*

#34
SpiderFan1217

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CherryColaLola wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Jack was raped? When did she say this?


She infers it when you speak to her aboard the Normandy and ask her about her past.  I can't remember her exact words but she says the pirates that picked her up after drifting "used her and then sold her."

She never says "rape" and I suppose those pirates just "used" her for her excellent cooking and sewing skills. *shrugs*



What? You don't think they're here for the food?

#35
Jackal904

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Azint wrote...

The last time this was brought up, the thread was locked. I wonder if the same thing will happen...


It was because people were too immature to discuss such a topic. But BioWare could not have put that bit of monologue in the game and not expect people to think she was raped.

Nivenus wrote...

If they didn't have ways of forcing her or keeping her under control, they'd never have been able to keep her locked up as long as she did. Let's not forget, after all, that she was a prisoner.


That's a damn good point. I think this is very likely.

Modifié par Jackal904, 16 mai 2010 - 10:26 .


#36
kglaser

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Virtual winter wrote...

For a moment I thought this was about the Biotic God.


Implications...unpleasant.  And titillating.

#37
CherryColaLola

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SpiderFan1217 wrote...

CherryColaLola wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Jack was raped? When did she say this?


She infers it when you speak to her aboard the Normandy and ask her about her past.  I can't remember her exact words but she says the pirates that picked her up after drifting "used her and then sold her."

She never says "rape" and I suppose those pirates just "used" her for her excellent cooking and sewing skills. *shrugs*



What? You don't think they're here for the food?


The pirates just rape Rupert when they want good food, so they probably just take advantage of Jacks biotic sewing capabilities as evidenced by her stunning wardrobe and outfits.

#38
Jackal904

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CherryColaLola wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Jack was raped? When did she say this?


She infers it when you speak to her aboard the Normandy and ask her about her past.  I can't remember her exact words but she says the pirates that picked her up after drifting "used her and then sold her."


Actually we're refering to Jack's bit of monologue that you can initiate in the Dark Star Lounge Restrooms. She talks about how one time she got jumped by 7 guys in the latrines on Purgatory. She says she killed two, but she was slow and they "got her."

#39
CherryColaLola

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kglaser wrote...

Virtual winter wrote...

For a moment I thought this was about the Biotic God.


Implications...unpleasant.  And titillating.


Image IPB  I just threw up in my mouth a little.

#40
Foolsfolly

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brain_damage wrote...

HOW? Jack told us how she got raped - and I don't get it. She's supposed to be the most powerful biotic in the universe, she defeats two YMIR mechs in front of you and yet somehow a bunch of guys from a local gang still managed to overpower her and rape her? What's next? World's most powerful biotic gets beaten and raped by a house cat? World's most powerful biotic gets defeated and raped by the gravity on the Citadel?
I mean...seriously, how did that happen?


Actually, it was three YMIR mechs. Not two.

....

....

You bring up a good point. Maybe prisoners have neural...no...otherwise she wouldn't have broken free.

....you bring up a really good point. So....plot required she get raped so we have that one piece of dialogue on the Citadel?

#41
Collider

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She was prolly just caught off guard. And it's 7 people - all of which could be biotics themselves. She may be the most powerful biotic but she's not invincible.

#42
janeym27

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enormousmoonboots wrote...

Azint wrote...

The last time this was brought up, the thread was locked. I wonder if the same thing will happen...

I never understood that. It's something that actually happened to a character in the actual game, why is talking about it forbidden? The thread was a little distasteful, but no more than the actual scene itself (everyone else expresses an opinion or something like that in their dialog spots...Jack talks about being raped. I don't really think those should be equivalent).


I agree that if it's in game it should be available as a point of discussion. I think the issue arises when people stop discussing it properly, and it degenerates into somewhat distasteful rape jokes and character flaming. (ususally one or 2 idiots who take it too far) Rape is a more sensitive issue than most, and so I guess it's easier for the jokes to get out of hand. I remember one thread got pretty nasty about rape victims (or so I felt) at one point, but reached like 8 pages before it was locked. It's hard to gage the mods in here sometimes.

Jack talks about being raped on a number of occasions. Her escape from Cerberus ended with the crew of the shuttle she left on 'using' her. She was a child at the time. She also implies that the couple she roamed around with for a while used her as well. The psychological implications of that kind of physical abuse are far-reaching. It's possible that she got to a point where when it happened again, she had normalised it ot the point where she could only identify it after the fact. More likely, however, is the notion that she was not in control of her powers, or was already weakened or subdued. As an inmate, it's unlikly that they would let her wander about with her full biotic potential available to her. Also, she was in there with some of the worst scum of the universe.

As someone has already pointed out: complex issue, complex character.

#43
CherryColaLola

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Jackal904 wrote...

CherryColaLola wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Jack was raped? When did she say this?


She infers it when you speak to her aboard the Normandy and ask her about her past.  I can't remember her exact words but she says the pirates that picked her up after drifting "used her and then sold her."


Actually we're refering to Jack's bit of monologue that you can initiate in the Dark Star Lounge Restrooms. She talks about how one time she got jumped by 7 guys in the latrines on Purgatory. She says she killed two, but she was slow and they "got her."


ooOOO    Never saw that!  I'm going to check for other cool toiletry related cutscenes by taking each squad member to the bathroom. This will be rad!  

#44
Jackal904

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I'm pretty sure only Jack has monologue in the Dark Star Lounge bathrooms.

#45
enormousmoonboots

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janeym27 wrote...

I agree that if it's in game it should be available as a point of discussion. I think the issue arises when people stop discussing it properly, and it degenerates into somewhat distasteful rape jokes and character flaming. (ususally one or 2 idiots who take it too far) Rape is a more sensitive issue than most, and so I guess it's easier for the jokes to get out of hand. I remember one thread got pretty nasty about rape victims (or so I felt) at one point, but reached like 8 pages before it was locked. It's hard to gage the mods in here sometimes.

I've seen threads get incredibly nasty and not get locked at all. I don't get it, either.

Jack talks about being raped on a number of occasions. Her escape from Cerberus ended with the crew of the shuttle she left on 'using' her. She was a child at the time. She also implies that the couple she roamed around with for a while used her as well. The psychological implications of that kind of physical abuse are far-reaching. It's possible that she got to a point where when it happened again, she had normalised it ot the point where she could only identify it after the fact. More likely, however, is the notion that she was not in control of her powers, or was already weakened or subdued. As an inmate, it's unlikly that they would let her wander about with her full biotic potential available to her. Also, she was in there with some of the worst scum of the universe.

As someone has already pointed out: complex issue, complex character.

Honestly, I feel like the writers kind of fumbled with Jack. They went with a lot of big issues (rape, murder, Cerberus testing, etc) for her, but she gets fewer conversations than much less damaged characters (or more funtional characters, depending on your definition of damaged. At any rate, I'd definitely say that Grunt and Mordin are a lot more psychologically stable than she is), and, like all romance characters, her character development is tied to her romance plot. The long and short of it is that her experiences come off as cheap or lazy writing (she got raped! And she killed some guys! Look how hardcore she is!) because you only ever see the first half of her story. Most people simply won't be able to access her character development, by virtue of not chosing her for a romance or simply being the wrong gender.

There's also the problem that, due to the way loyalty is set up, characters' issues are treated by the game as being more or less equivalent, so Jack's issues are weighted the same as Garrus's survivor's guilt. Not to cheapen Garrus's troubles, but they're really apples and oranges. And because of how quickly the game has to work through her issues (or not, in the case of not romancing her) in 2-3 conversations, she comes off as really unevenly written and all you ever get to deal with with her is implied implications, and that's no substitute for actual writing.

#46
kglaser

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CherryColaLola wrote...

kglaser wrote...

Virtual winter wrote...

For a moment I thought this was about the Biotic God.


Implications...unpleasant.  And titillating.


Image IPB  I just threw up in my mouth a little.


My work here is done. B)

#47
janeym27

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enormousmoonboots wrote...
Honestly, I feel like the writers kind of fumbled with Jack. They went with a lot of big issues (rape, murder, Cerberus testing, etc) for her, but she gets fewer conversations than much less damaged characters (or more funtional characters, depending on your definition of damaged. At any rate, I'd definitely say that Grunt and Mordin are a lot more psychologically stable than she is), and, like all romance characters, her character development is tied to her romance plot. The long and short of it is that her experiences come off as cheap or lazy writing (she got raped! And she killed some guys! Look how hardcore she is!) because you only ever see the first half of her story. Most people simply won't be able to access her character development, by virtue of not chosing her for a romance or simply being the wrong gender.

There's also the problem that, due to the way loyalty is set up, characters' issues are treated by the game as being more or less equivalent, so Jack's issues are weighted the same as Garrus's survivor's guilt. Not to cheapen Garrus's troubles, but they're really apples and oranges. And because of how quickly the game has to work through her issues (or not, in the case of not romancing her) in 2-3 conversations, she comes off as really unevenly written and all you ever get to deal with with her is implied implications, and that's no substitute for actual writing.


I agree  that a lot of Jack's issues seem to be like "This happened to her! How messed up is that sh*t?!" by the writing, and the fact that you can't get more involved without romancing her (which is probably not the kind of dependancy she needs) does leave it all a bit... shallow (is that the word I'm looking for?).

I don't have a problem with the LMs weighting the issues the same: each person's pain and problems are their own and unique to them (IMO. I'm not saying that going through puberty is the same as dealing with the trauma of sexual abuse, just that an individual is defined by their own experience and so will personally weigh these things according to hwo it affects them. 2 people can deal with the 'same' experience totally differently, so making comparisons between different people's problems can get tricky. To an extent. Obviously, if you are POd  and whining cos someone nicked your sandwitch and so ignoring someone else who has just lost their family, you need to wise up. lol. Sorry - subjectivity tangent). However, giving a character so many huge issues to deal with, then not affording a player the chance to actually develop that relationship, or to explore those issues remotely properly, does leave the entire experience feeling a little half-assed.

Hopefully ME3 will give us more insight into her.

#48
enormousmoonboots

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Yeah, subjectivity's tricky; you can never truly measure how important something is to someone. But the fact that Jack is given the same amount of time to deal with her life-long multiple traumas as Garrus or Tali has to deal with their singular, recent issues rings a little false. Either it comes down to 1) you romanced Jack and she is, in some way, recovering or 2) you didn't romance her and never truly connect with or help her. Sure, you could roleplay/fic your Shepard helping Jack without romancing her, but the fact is it doesn't happen in the game and cutting off romance results in Jack telling Shepard to go away and you never help her with anything, meaning that you have even less of an emotional connection than you do with Kasumi.

#49
janeym27

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enormousmoonboots wrote...

Yeah, subjectivity's tricky; you can never truly measure how important something is to someone. But the fact that Jack is given the same amount of time to deal with her life-long multiple traumas as Garrus or Tali has to deal with their singular, recent issues rings a little false. Either it comes down to 1) you romanced Jack and she is, in some way, recovering or 2) you didn't romance her and never truly connect with or help her. Sure, you could roleplay/fic your Shepard helping Jack without romancing her, but the fact is it doesn't happen in the game and cutting off romance results in Jack telling Shepard to go away and you never help her with anything, meaning that you have even less of an emotional connection than you do with Kasumi.


I agree. And what's frustrating is that hers is one of the 'cut and paste' relationships that seems to cut you off for simply being the wrong gender without reaching a natural conclusion.  Garrus, Jacob and Miranda, and to a lesser extent Tahne, end for non LI players at a point where you're like 'OK. I understand that this isn't going any further', but Jack it's like "Want to talk some more?" "I'm not gay!!!" which feels... wrong ("Oh, you have a penis? Then sure, we can talk more."). Like, the other non LI relationships reach a concluding point of sorts. Her's does not. (Tali's is a bit like that as well, IMO. She talks baout how close she is to Shep - wants to link suits - then totally withdraws unless Shepard is male. It doesn't feel finished.)

Mind you, the whole premise of 'Shepard saves everyone' sometimes rings a little false in itself anyway. S/he spends a lot of time 'fixing' people with out ever articulation problems of her own, y'know. lol:whistle:

#50
Jackal904

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enormousmoonboots wrote...

Honestly, I feel like the writers kind of fumbled with Jack. They went with a lot of big issues (rape, murder, Cerberus testing, etc) for her, but she gets fewer conversations than much less damaged characters (or more funtional characters, depending on your definition of damaged. At any rate, I'd definitely say that Grunt and Mordin are a lot more psychologically stable than she is), and, like all romance characters, her character development is tied to her romance plot. The long and short of it is that her experiences come off as cheap or lazy writing (she got raped! And she killed some guys! Look how hardcore she is!) because you only ever see the first half of her story. Most people simply won't be able to access her character development, by virtue of not chosing her for a romance or simply being the wrong gender.

There's also the problem that, due to the way loyalty is set up, characters' issues are treated by the game as being more or less equivalent, so Jack's issues are weighted the same as Garrus's survivor's guilt. Not to cheapen Garrus's troubles, but they're really apples and oranges. And because of how quickly the game has to work through her issues (or not, in the case of not romancing her) in 2-3 conversations, she comes off as really unevenly written and all you ever get to deal with with her is implied implications, and that's no substitute for actual writing.


It's lazy to look at her and think that she's just some wannabe hardcore chick. It is not lazy writing at all. Jack is the best written character in the game, and she has many conversations. More than Mordin and Grunt, so idk where you're getting the idea from that she has only a few conversations. And of course Mordin and Grunt are more psychologically stable, I fail to see the relevance of that statement. She has just as many implications and most characters, so again, I think you're exaggerating or uninformed. The only issue is that you have to romance her in order to explore her character. But it's like that for every character. It's a limitation of development, deal with it.

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Yeah, subjectivity's tricky;
you can never truly measure how important something is to someone. But
the fact that Jack is given the same amount of time to deal with her
life-long multiple traumas as Garrus or Tali has to deal with their
singular, recent issues rings a little false.


Counting their romance dialogue, Jack has far more conversations that Garrus and Tali. Garrus and Tali have around 4. And Jack has like 7, not counting loyalty mission related conversations. If you count their loyalty mission related conversations, that makes 6 for Garrus and Tali, and 9 for Jack. So Jack has several more conversations to deal with her issues than Garrus and Tali.

Modifié par Jackal904, 17 mai 2010 - 12:21 .