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[Der Kirk]

Shandepared wrote...

TudorWolf wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

I don't regret blowing up the Collector base at all. I have no doubt that TIM would melt any number of people to make himself a Human Reaper, whether he's indoctrinated or not. If you can't use a Reaper IFF safely, what's the chance you can "use" a collector base? That thing was the Star Forge of ME. It's just evil.

This is exactly my thinking regarding the base. Reaper tech always leads to bad outcomes.

"It's just evil." That's some really sophisticated logic you have there.

I think what he is trying to say is that the technology lends itself to evil outcomes.  Nearly every time someone uses reaper tech it ends up leading to their demise.

Examples:

Mass Relays / citadel= Made to drive spacefaring species down a specific, easy to harvest path.
Reaper Ships=  Even dead ones indoctrinate everyone who does any real research on them

[Nightwriter]

I can't really think of any time they've ever made a paragon choice bite you in the ass. The only one that comes to mind is the decision to spare that merc in Samara's recruitment mission, the one who turned out to be a murderer.

So, with so little previous history to go on, I really couldn't say.

[Barquiel]

I think the genophage cure could be problematic.
"High Krogan population always leads to war"

The collector base decision was easy
TIMs racism + Cerberus's incompetence + reaper tech
No way!

[Sharn01]

I have never understood this strong desire for renegade players to have paragon decisions constantly have bad outcomes, I have yet to see any renegade decisions have bad outcomes despite all the complaining.

[shoulderfish]

Keeping the genophage data, releasing the rachni queen...most people have said these already. They take a leap of faith -- just like with that Elnora chick in Samara's recruitment mission. That was the first time I've seen a paragon choice (letting her go) screw me over.

Also, Balak. I let him go the first time, then felt stupid for doing so. I think Kate said something about how she was afraid the few (her) would be sacrificed for the many. Well hurrrr, that's better than having a racist terrorist running around, even more pissed at humans. (Sorry, Kate.)

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Der Kirk wrote...

I think what he is trying to say is that the technology lends itself to evil outcomes.  Nearly every time someone uses reaper tech it ends up leading to their demise.

Examples:

Mass Relays / citadel= Made to drive spacefaring species down a specific, easy to harvest path.
Reaper Ships=  Even dead ones indoctrinate everyone who does any real research on them

Yes and you will always be living in fear of the tech, especially when it arrives enmass to kill you, unless you take the opportunity now to understand and master it.

Not quite fear I would call it. I don't fear reaper technology, I respect it for it's dangers and I totally understand how it works, but it is beyond our capabilties as an mature race to use it properly. It's like giving krogan cavemen nuclear weapons... O wait THEY WERE given nuclear weapons. >.>

Abouste Power corrupts Aboustely. Period. You won't use it for evil purposes, others will.

[Arijharn]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Abouste Power corrupts Aboustely. Period. You won't use it for evil purposes, others will.

I have to say, and I'm sorry for saying it like this, but sometimes bluntness works wonders but; that's an incredibly naive viewpoint to have. With that logic we may as well outlaw production of the wheel because despite the good it's done for us, it's also helped in the killing of millions more through all sorts of means. Or how about production of 'fire'?

Look, Paragon (to which I play as primarily) doesn't feel like I'm playing organically. Because I know this is a game with an ending I'm able to 'hope' for the best during dialogue interrupts to get the ideal result. Elnora pulls a gun on me in the Samara recruitment mission, I don't pull a gun on her in return despite it being prudent because I know I'll survive it and I'll 'convince' her. (As a note; I usually do pull a gun on her regardless of this meta-gaming, simply because it's prudent.)

I hope that blowing up the Collector base for 'moral' reasons (I wont let fear compromise who I am) does indeed bite Paragon players in the ass (higher than expected casuality rates, loss of key star systems etc). I hope it does if only to make the ME universe less 'black and white' then what we've all come to expect... consequence is good. I know they'll be consequences for keeping it, although I'm as unsure as others for what that mean.

[Massadonious1]

Sharn01 wrote...

I have never understood this strong desire for renegade players to have paragon decisions constantly have bad outcomes, I have yet to see any renegade decisions have bad outcomes despite all the complaining.

Our playstyle is icky. We're not realistic or nihilistic enough. Sacrificing our own species lives for the greater good = awesomesauce!

Yeah, I don't get it either.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 18 mai 2010 - 07:14 .

[ObserverStatus]

Definitely letting Shiala live. Shepard is as good as plant food.

[Massadonious1]

Well, I don't know if all the people at home are going to remain loyal to the cause if they were suddenly "volunteered" into becoming Reaper slushies in the hope that the tech is successful in defending against the more immediate threat and isn't used for nefarious purposes afterwords.



Humans are selfish as a whole and it looks like that hasn't changed much in Mass Effect's vision of the future. I would probably rather live a few more productive years, even if I know the end will come, than die now and pray that my innards helps fuel the ultimate anti-Reaper weapon that might not even work.

[Sharn01]

Shandepared wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

Our playstyle is icky. We're not realistic or nihilistic enough. Sacrificing our own species lives for the greater good = awesomesauce!

Yeah, I don't get it either.

I hope all the people at home that Shepard swore an oath to defend when he became a member of the Alliance Military don't ever hear that quote. That's one horrific betrayal.

In any case, I'd like to see both paragon and renegade decisions have unintended and not always pleasant results.

Its not hard to do if they want to go in that direction.  The base for instance, if you blew it up you take more losses from the reapers due to tech that is a little bit less advanced.  If you kept it, you take less losses but TIM and Cerberus are slaughtering people for their experiments there, and in the long run will probably result in nearly as much death as well as thrusting Cerberus into a much more dominant position on the galactic scale, though I guess some players would like the last part.  I do not think Cerberus experiments will stop with the end of the reapers either, they already killed hundreds of thousands of humans before ME1 ever took place and we had any clue about Reapers.

[Arijharn]

I like how everyone assumes that TIM will automatically make a Reaper if the collector base is saved though. I admit his look of triumph at the end was a bit unnecessary and unsavory I suppose, but I'd rather trust TIM and Cerberus to have that tech than just to let it disappear and suffer even more losses (that don't need to be lost)

[Sharn01]

I do not think he will make a Reaper, but I do think he will smoothie people for scientific experiments there. We already know he is capturing and experimenting on people with Reaper tech between games regardless of your choice with the base.

[Massadonious1]

Indeed.



And besides, Cerberus isn't the type to "find another way". They will exploit what already works.

[Massadonious1]

The Collectors planned to harvest the entire population of Earth just to finish their Terminator Reaper. Even if Cerberus were to refine the process a bit, that's still an awful lot of lives sacrificed for a single, solitary Reaper. I doubt you would have enough for a second. And at that point, you would effectively run out of a society to protect.



And even then, it's one Reaper against the entire armada of them. I'd rather take my chances with a armada (though less advanced technologically) of my own.

[pf17456]

I think those two Asari I helped get off the Citidel by using my Spectre status will come back to haunt me because they probably had hundreds of Heritic Geth packed away in their luggage.





As far as the Collector base is concerned it no longer exists in my game. TIM is a xenophobic meglomaniac whose agenda is to rule the galaxy and I don't think he'd give a chit how many slushies he made to reach that goal. Giving him the tech to make a Reaper would be like giving a child a loaded gun and saying go out and play.

[DarthCaine]

Ah, yes "consequences". We have dismissed that claim

[Blackveldt]

Hm. I would have to say destroying the Collector Base. Though, it would most likely be something superficial and initial since Biwoare has a tendency to reward all Paragon actions in some way. With which I do take slight issue. If I somehow had to make this choice in reality, I would have definitely saved the base. Humanity's existence--nay--the entire galaxy's continued existence is at stake. I could not simply rely on being the hero of a work of fiction (hero always win) and the Reapers are nigh impossible to defeat. Not using and/or implementing the technology would be the work of a disillusioned idiot (nevermind Cerberus' later plans). Like a PETA member refusing to hunt animals for food even when stranded on a desert island (not that I have anything against PETA). It is even hypocritical. The Paragon option of Mordin's loyalty quest (saving the data so the subject did not die for nothing) contradicts the Paragon option of destroying the base (despite the subjects dying for nothing).

I can understand why destroying the base would be a Paragon action and I do agree that it is an abomination that needs to be ultimately destroyed, but I hope to God that there are serious consequences for this choice. Taking the high road is supposed to be tougher in real life. We can already infer the consequences of saving the base (even hinted by Mordin and Legion--a species gaining access to technology before fully evolving to that point, i.e., the Krogan, etc), but that is not an immediate consequence. So we, as gamers, may not feel the full extent of this. (Though the immediate consequence would also be Cerberus and TIM being a right pain in the arse.) I am hoping that the consequence of not using the base would be so great that it would be impossible to have a desirable, positive outcome ('win' the game) without some other key (Paragon) choice (ex: saving the Rachni).

I liked the way Bioware handles decisions in DA:O. 'Paragon' choices did not necessarily have a good outcome. Moral ambiguity is what makes games like these most interesting (imo) anyhow.

Hm. I think I strayed... a bit. What were we talking about?

Modifié par Blackveldt, 18 mai 2010 - 10:43 .

[Kid_SixXx]

Looks like one of the paragon choices I made in ME1 will return to bite me in ME3 since it looks like Toombs has his own merc band and is gunning for me.