143 réponses à ce sujet

[adam_grif]

Sheeet, if Samara wants to kill me for being unjust, she can get in goddamn line behind the Reapers and half the galaxy's mercenaries. She so much as looks at me funny and she's gonna be finding peace in the embrace of the goddess faster than you can say "Revanent Heavy Machine Gun"

[Zulu_DFA]

GothamLord wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


It's like twenty years since they last met...

Isnt Kaidan's name used in the scene?   Wouldnt Jack remember the name?  Maybe?

She'd been traumatized during BAaT, she'd been traumatized at Teltin. On the daily basis. She'd been traumatized during her criminal adventures. And she spent who knows how many years in suspended animation on the Purgatory. It's obvious she does not even remember her own real name.

Fair enough.   Still dont buy the Aethyta idea though.

How about Shaira?

[Wildecker]

GothamLord wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

Hey, she's detained without ever being accused or even suspected of killing Dakni Kur?

Yeah, sounds like solid justice. Round up all innocents and arrest who's left?

They're keeping her at the precinct so she doesn't kill by accident anyone who might later turn out to be a witness or a suspect to the killing.
And sure enough, if you're playing Renegade you will waste the Eclipse girl who really shot the Volus ... and several truck loads of other Eclipse mercs with her. "Case closed"?

She also crushed the throat of a unarmed merc after she hurled her across the room rather than hand her over to the police.  I'd lock Samara up too before she killed every possible lead I had. Dakni Kur's murder however is meaningless to Samara as it falls below her quest to find her serial killer daughter. I guess The Asari Jusicar Code has a blurb somewhere that allows justice for one person to be put on hold or totally ignored when you have personal issues involving another case.

Sounds like a SPECTRE to me. "My mission has priority!"

[Zaisha_temp]

Xan Kreigor Mk2 wrote...

This brings another interesting point to the surface

It was paragon to save mealons (sp, w/e) data on curing the genophage, "incase they ever needed it." Why couldnt it be paragon to save the Collectors base, "incase we ever needed it."

Because you keep genophage information safe for the "in case" scenario. The collector base you automatically hand over to a known terrorist organisation with a megalomaniacal leader.

If you could hand the base over to the Alliance/Council/your own research team, it might be simply prudent/neutral to keep it, (barring Indoctrination concerns) but as the choice is structured in the game (Cerberus or BOOM!) it's a Renegade action.

It's a stupid one-thing-or-the-other choice without any of the obvious alternatives available, but as it is presented only a Renegade would choose "keep", because of the "and automatically give it to Cerberus" followup. 


EDIT: what the.... where did al those extra pages come from?

Modifié par Zaisha_temp, 17 mai 2010 - 11:12 .

[GothamLord]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How about Shaira?

Ew No.  I'd rather it be a unknown that we uncover in ME3.  There is no reason it has to be a character we've already run into.

[GothamLord]

Wildecker wrote...

GothamLord wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

Hey, she's detained without ever being accused or even suspected of killing Dakni Kur?

Yeah, sounds like solid justice. Round up all innocents and arrest who's left?

They're keeping her at the precinct so she doesn't kill by accident anyone who might later turn out to be a witness or a suspect to the killing.
And sure enough, if you're playing Renegade you will waste the Eclipse girl who really shot the Volus ... and several truck loads of other Eclipse mercs with her. "Case closed"?

She also crushed the throat of a unarmed merc after she hurled her across the room rather than hand her over to the police.  I'd lock Samara up too before she killed every possible lead I had. Dakni Kur's murder however is meaningless to Samara as it falls below her quest to find her serial killer daughter. I guess The Asari Jusicar Code has a blurb somewhere that allows justice for one person to be put on hold or totally ignored when you have personal issues involving another case.

Sounds like a SPECTRE to me. "My mission has priority!"

Yeah we saw how well that train of thought worked out for Saren.

[Xan Kreigor Mk2]

yea, im back w/ responses to my first post on page 2

I just beat ME2 again, kept the base for the second time out of 50 playthrus, i think ima keep it from now on. We risked our asses, our resources to defend the galaxy from the collectors, and reapers. So our reward is a technological advantage over the other races

Hey, Turian Councillor. Dismiss this, ******

Modifié par Xan Kreigor Mk2, 17 mai 2010 - 12:14 .

[Wildecker]

Xan Kreigor Mk2 wrote...

yea, im back w/ responses to my first post on page 2

I just beat ME2 again, kept the base for the second time out of 50 playthrus, i think ima keep it from now on. We risked our asses, our resources to defend the galaxy from the collectors, and reapers. So our reward is a technological advantage over the other races

Hey, Turian Councillor. Dismiss this, ******

As if.

As if the Illusive Man would ever tell a non-human about your conquest. Or willingly share the edge with someone else.

[Xan Kreigor Mk2]

itll be kinda obvious when we have collector technology, and everyone else doesnt lol

[Wildecker]

Xan Kreigor Mk2 wrote...

itll be kinda obvious when we have collector technology, and everyone else doesnt lol

Yeah. I guess you'll have your home-grown husks and scions and praetorians tear the Reapers apart from the inside once your new seeker swarms immobilized them, huh?

[Xan Kreigor Mk2]

how bout laser hand guns <.<

[smecky-kitteh]

the choice that I go back and fourth with is when choosing to save or re-write the heretics

[Foolsfolly]

I would love it if BioWare gave closure to these in Mass Effect 3.



I usually let Balak go but I'd really like it if Balak came back and killed people for his Revolution. Letting a terrorist go to save civilians is a tough call. But even a Paragon trying to minimize all death around the galaxy could enable more death. There's really no reason why Balak wouldn't do more evil, he's a complete monster.



This also makes the choice more important even in replays. Since ME2 I've noticed what used to be choices now feel more like problem solving. Want X Result do Y instead of Z. With Balak coming back and hurting people (a mission that only happens if you let him go) then you're shown that your actions don't always work out in your favor. That doesn't demean the civilians on X-57 either. Saving them is a moral thing and not a logical thing.



Really hope that comes back.



As for Vido there's really no reason why we can't hunt him down again. He's no longer the leader of the Blue Suns anyway. Their leader is Solem Dal'serah. Vido gave up his power for the title of Co-Executive Officer. He doesn't have the entire Blue Suns structure at his beck and call. He's just a greedy man who gave up power for safety.



Also it's kinda hard to blame Zaeed for the refinery burning. I saw it as Zaeed doing his own Renegade Interrupt. Which actually endeared him to me because he has a mind of his own whereas too many squad mates in Mass Effect live only because you tell them to. Zaeed's a man who makes mistakes.



On a logical level, why would save the civilians anyway? They're on a Blue Sun world, you don't kill the leader of the Blue Suns regardless of choice, and it's not like they have a life on this planet. You save them and you abandon them on a hostile jungle planet to die and starve hoping for rescue before the Blue Suns return.



Plus you don't get the Rifle upgrade.

[Flamin Jesus]

Pacifien wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...
1st you dont negotiate with terrorists so they dont do it again.

You're mixing up "terrorists" and "kidnappers/extortionists".

Whoa, wait, hullo, I missed that the first time around. Directing an asteroid to hit a planet with over 4 million inhabitants is a kidnapping/extortionist attempt?

No, it isn't, but the "negotiation" wasn't "Let those few people die or let me crash the asteroid" (Which at this point has already failed), but "Let those few people die or let me escape". Although he is also a terrorist, at the time of your decision he is merely a kidnapper/extortionist bargaining for his life. Sure, it's possible that more people will die if he gets away, but it's certain that the people you can save right then and there are going to die if you don't do something about it.
Since my powers of precognition and prophecy are not so powerful as to allow me certain knowledge of the future, I can't predict what happens tomorrow, AT LEAST not well enough to let people whose only mistake was to be at the wrong place at the wrong time simply die if I can do something about it.
Sure, maybe I (or someone else) will have to fight again tomorrow if I don't put a bullet through his head today, and if that's how it is, then that's just how it is, if more people die as the result of my decision, then that is unfortunate, but I won't let fear of such an eventuality guide my decisions.

And the same is true for my canon Shepard.

[Zulu_DFA]

Zaisha_temp wrote...

It's a stupid one-thing-or-the-other choice without any of the obvious alternatives available

No alternative is available because if you keep the Base in order to notify the Council or whatever about its existence, it'll take them months to create a commitee for evaluation of possibilities of mounting a joint effort to come up with a plan of potential steps necessary to assemble a research team that could go study the Base. And if you are lucky enough and in a couple of years the expedition budget is approved, Cerberus will have long since stripped the Base of any valuable techology (or simply altered the Omega-4 IFF signal)

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 mai 2010 - 01:46 .

[adam_grif]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zaisha_temp wrote...

It's a stupid one-thing-or-the-other choice without any of the obvious alternatives available

No alternative is available because if you keep the Base in order to notify the Council or whatever about its existence, it'll take them months to create a commitee of evaluation of possibilities of mounting a joint effort to come up with a plan of potential steps necessary to assemble a research team that could go study the base. And if you are luccky enough and in a couple of years thу xpedition budget is approved, Cerberus will have long since stripped the Base of any valuable techology (or simply altered the Omega-4 IFF signal)

No go, the IFF is a specific piece of a reaper, it's not just a pass-code. Ergo why they had to have it installed and why it took over the SR2. The only ship in the galaxy that is known to be able to traverse the O4 relay is the Normandy, and it's commanded by one Shepard. Nobody is getting to the collector base unless they are ferried there by the SR2, or they reverse engineer the IFF.

Since the only IFF in existence is onboard the SR2, either way Shepard has the final say in who gets access to all the stuff.

[Zulu_DFA]

adam_grif wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zaisha_temp wrote...

It's a stupid one-thing-or-the-other choice without any of the obvious alternatives available

No alternative is available because if you keep the Base in order to notify the Council or whatever about its existence, it'll take them months to create a commitee of evaluation of possibilities of mounting a joint effort to come up with a plan of potential steps necessary to assemble a research team that could go study the base. And if you are luccky enough and in a couple of years thу xpedition budget is approved, Cerberus will have long since stripped the Base of any valuable techology (or simply altered the Omega-4 IFF signal)

No go, the IFF is a specific piece of a reaper, it's not just a pass-code. Ergo why they had to have it installed and why it took over the SR2. The only ship in the galaxy that is known to be able to traverse the O4 relay is the Normandy, and it's commanded by one Shepard. Nobody is getting to the collector base unless they are ferried there by the SR2, or they reverse engineer the IFF.

Since the only IFF in existence is onboard the SR2, either way Shepard has the final say in who gets access to all the stuff.

If you keep the Base and Shepard gets killed, Joker talks to TIM, and TIM is staring at a holographic image of ships approaching the C-Base. It's presumed, that by the time you enter Omega-4 relay TIM has a squadron of research and / or war ships ready to follow. Apparently "a piece of a Reaper" is easily replicated.

As far as war strategy goes, Shepard's mission was essentially a reconnaisance. When it turned out that it's just a big space station, and a poorly defended one. Shepard was able to do all the job by himself. What if there were an Earth size planet, crawling with billions of Collectors with thousands of underground bunkers?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 mai 2010 - 02:03 .

[Flamin Jesus]

adam_grif wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zaisha_temp wrote...

It's a stupid one-thing-or-the-other choice without any of the obvious alternatives available

No alternative is available because if you keep the Base in order to notify the Council or whatever about its existence, it'll take them months to create a commitee of evaluation of possibilities of mounting a joint effort to come up with a plan of potential steps necessary to assemble a research team that could go study the base. And if you are luccky enough and in a couple of years thу xpedition budget is approved, Cerberus will have long since stripped the Base of any valuable techology (or simply altered the Omega-4 IFF signal)

No go, the IFF is a specific piece of a reaper, it's not just a pass-code. Ergo why they had to have it installed and why it took over the SR2. The only ship in the galaxy that is known to be able to traverse the O4 relay is the Normandy, and it's commanded by one Shepard. Nobody is getting to the collector base unless they are ferried there by the SR2, or they reverse engineer the IFF.

Since the only IFF in existence is onboard the SR2, either way Shepard has the final say in who gets access to all the stuff.

That's the funny part, somehow, they already managed to do it. I watched a "worst possible ending" clip (Everyone dies, but the base survives), and if Joker is the one to report back to TIM, he's seen looking at a projection of the base with several ships arriving from different directions.
At least that's what it looked like, didn't make much sense to me, though.

[GodWood]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zaisha_temp wrote...

It's a stupid one-thing-or-the-other choice without any of the obvious alternatives available

No alternative is available because if you keep the Base in order to notify the Council or whatever about its existence, it'll take them months to create a commitee for evaluation of possibilities of mounting a joint effort to come up with a plan of potential steps necessary to assemble a research team that could go study the Base. And if you are lucky enough and in a couple of years the expedition budget is approved, Cerberus will have long since stripped the Base of any valuable techology (or simply altered the Omega-4 IFF signal)

Basically the Council are the ME equivilent of the Judian Peoples Front.

[enormousmoonboots]

HBC Dresden wrote...

For me, killing Balak is definitely justifiable, along the Batman line of consequence. If you kill Balak, several hostages die, horrible yes, but if you let Balak get away, he will kill more and more (like the Joker in Batman) until you catch and kill him again. In the end, Shepard's actions result in more death the paragon way (and yes, I know millions were saved on Terra Nova). Also, Kate Bowman was willing to sacrifice her life.

Are you not very familiar with Batman or something? Because Batman always saves the civillians to let the Joker get away. Hell, he's risked innocent lives just to save the Joker because his hangup about people dying is that absolute.

[KOKitten]

But that makes more sense in a fictional series. If Batman killed Joker the first time they encountered each other, that story line would end. Letting him go allows the rivalry and stories to go on.

You're not going to see that too often in a real life situation.

[CmdrFenix83]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Thanks for the input guys. Some good opinions vocalized here. When it comes to Zaeed's loyalty mission, letting Vido go is kind of acceptable in my eyes because even if you lop off the head of a merc organization, its likely that he has a second in command willing and able to step into place.

With BDTS, well thats a huge grey area. Letting a pissed off terrorist who has the resources and ability to hijack a meteor and crash in into a planet, thus killing millions(or billions? of people get away? Looking at it that way certainly seems like a bad choice, but on the other hand, Balak is now a known terrorist and is being hunted. Anything he could possibly do would be much harder to set up now. Also, you dont KNOW that he intends to make another attack.

This is why I really love Mass Effect, all the grey areas really make the game more real, IMO.

Basically this.

We know that the Blue Suns have a command structure with ranks and a heirarchy  so we know someone will simply step into Vidos shoes.

Balaks cheif luitenant is already on the edge of desertion and heavily implies that balak put the whole thing together.

This is interesting actually, I chose to kill Balak's second in command(is that what he was? Im speaking of that Batarian that either drops or gives you the key to get into the main base). Anyways, he had absoultely nothing to bargain, no hostages or anything. And for all we know, he  is lying through his teeth. If youre bat **** crazy boss told you to go kill a man and his team who have mowed through dozens of your people already, wouldnt you try to do anything you could to try and get out of it? The point is, he is still a terrorist, and for all you know, he will continue doing the exact same thing if you let him go. 

Lol I know it probably doesnt make the most sense. But thats the way I look at it

Well, for Charn right before you get the option to attack him or not he says, "I just came here for a quick slave grab."  Even my Paragons cannot just overlook that, or as Shepard says, "That's reason enough for me."

As to the two cases in the OP: 

Balak is the definition of a terrorist.  Planning to wipe out an entire planet simply because it's inhabited by a people he doesn't like.  Without a doubt, he will try something again in the future.  Even if this is in question, is it worth letting him go for a mere 3 lives?  What if he actually does do it again?  You will have sacrificed an entire planet for three lives.  Even if it's a minor attack, you still traded many for a few.  It's tragic, but the least risky proposition is to let the few die to ensure many survive.

As to Vido, I would let him go every time.  Given the option, I would also have left Zaeed to rot there for his stupidity.  In the previous scenerio, Balak was the reason the hostages were in imminent danger.  Here, it's your own squadmate that's at fault.  The refinery workers may have been enslaved, but they weren't in any real danger before Zaeed sent the refinery into meltdown mode.

On top of that, the mission to Zoyra was to liberate the refinery.  That is what the company hired Zaeed to do.  The entire bit about getting vengeance on Vido is irrelevant to the mission itself, even if that's the reason he took the mission.  This is why you don't get paid from the company if you go after Vido, you get half the credits from Cerberus for earning Zaeed's loyalty, even if you technically failed the mission.

[enormousmoonboots]

KOKitten wrote...

But that makes more sense in a fictional series. If Batman killed Joker the first time they encountered each other, that story line would end. Letting him go allows the rivalry and stories to go on.
You're not going to see that too often in a real life situation.

Mass Effect's not a real life situation, either.

[JKoopman]

Zaisha_temp wrote...

Xan Kreigor Mk2 wrote...

This brings another interesting point to the surface

It was paragon to save mealons (sp, w/e) data on curing the genophage, "incase they ever needed it." Why couldnt it be paragon to save the Collectors base, "incase we ever needed it."

Because you keep genophage information safe for the "in case" scenario. The collector base you automatically hand over to a known terrorist organisation with a megalomaniacal leader.

If you could hand the base over to the Alliance/Council/your own research team, it might be simply prudent/neutral to keep it, (barring Indoctrination concerns) but as the choice is structured in the game (Cerberus or BOOM!) it's a Renegade action.

It's a stupid one-thing-or-the-other choice without any of the obvious alternatives available, but as it is presented only a Renegade would choose "keep", because of the "and automatically give it to Cerberus" followup. 


EDIT: what the.... where did al those extra pages come from?

While I agree that the choice at the end was artificially restrictive (why no "Keep it but hand it over to the Alliance/Council" option?), my renegade character chose to destroy the base and my nuetral character chose to keep it.

The rationalization was that my renegade character was very much "my way or the highway" kind of person and he didn't appreciate the Illusive Man trying to order him around at the end. So he blew it because a) it screwed over the Illusive Man, which is always a plus and because hey, BIG BOOM. And blowing the hell out of everything in his path was kinda his thing.

My neutral character approached it more as "Why destroy what could potentially be useful in our battle with the Reapers? If it gives us some kind of insight into their character or plans then it's worth keeping it around." I also figured that since I had the only working Reaper IFF, they couldn't really do anything anyway and I'd be able to inform the Alliance/Council later (which caused me some puzzlement when I saw a clip on YouTube of Cerberus frigates approaching the station if Shepard dies... how did they make it through the Omega-4 relay?).

smecky-kitteh wrote...

the choice that I go back and fourth with is when choosing to save or re-write the heretics

My Paragon chose to rewrite the heretics. Both due to the fact that it saved their "lives" and, since he was an Infiltrator and had spent a large part of the game up to that point wantonly AI hacking any synthetics that got in his way, it seemed slightly inconsistent to object to basically hacking more synthetics permanently and on a larger scale (after all, isn't hacking the entire collective so they all get along and can rejoin with the free geth more humanitarian that hacking a group of them locally and forcing them to turn on their comrades?... and most people don't seem to have any trouble with the later).

My Renegade just destroyed them. After all, he spent all of the first game and a large part of the second blasting any geth he could find... why think twice about destroying even more?

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Seriously, of all the soap opera theories about everyone being everyone else's relative/buddy I support only one: Jack is was Rahna... Which means I've got no chance to find it out, because both Jack and Kaidan are dead in my book.

Wasn't Rahna described as being dark-skinned and Turkish? Jack just looks like an ordinary caucasian girl.

Plus her name is Jack. Everyone always called her Jack. Even the scientists at the Pragia facility... when they weren't calling her Subject Zero. Why wouldn't they call her Rahna if that's who she was?

[KOKitten]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

KOKitten wrote...

But that makes more sense in a fictional series. If Batman killed Joker the first time they encountered each other, that story line would end. Letting him go allows the rivalry and stories to go on.
You're not going to see that too often in a real life situation.

Mass Effect's not a real life situation, either.

Obviously it's not.  And unless we have some hostage negotiators here, most of us aren't going to encounter any of these situations in real life.

It just boils down to how a person role-plays his/her Shepard. 

Edited to add:  I just realized that this reads kind of ****y which was not my intent. 

The best part of a game like Mass Effect is that a person can make these sorts of choices based on his/her own perspectives and ideals.  I love the fact that we are not forced to accept that there is a "right" or "wrong" way to play.

Modifié par KOKitten, 17 mai 2010 - 05:36 .