337 réponses à ce sujet

[Leon Evelake]

Is this page displaying weird to everyone else?
And ifsomebody could tell me how divide up quotes so i can put in comments in between parts i would be thankful

Modifié par Leon Evelake, 12 juin 2010 - 09:26 .

[Arrtis]

Not just you man.

[Tezzajh]

Page 9 was displaying weired, perhaps bioware corrupted it because we were slagging off awkening lol, But heres my question to you, are you quite sure they intend to use the awkening system? cause alot of people mentioned that awkenings was on a low budget which is understandable as its just a expansion, so i would assume more money was going to be spent on a sequel as its a entire game, and some of the profits go towards the 2nd game from the expansion,



Also I saw on a news read that the new game was going to have a new engine built because of the graphics (100% reliable information) but this could be taken as a bad or good sign, it would be good cause you no that bioware has a bigger budget and could lead you to thinking that they would include a more expensive dialouge system but on the other hand are they using their budget to pump up the graphics and neglect other things such as the talking

[Catcher]

Leon Evelake wrote...

Is this page displaying weird to everyone else?
And ifsomebody could tell me how divide up quotes so i can put in comments in between parts i would be thankful

     Leon, you can start by taking my own stuffand David quotes out. I should be able to follow along. It can also help to click on the BBCode select on the top right and use square bracket foward slash "quote" square bracket. 

Modifié par Catcher, 13 juin 2010 - 01:47 .

[Heather Cline]

I wasn't a fan of Awakenings convo system. If they use that for DA2 the no, I probably won't buy it. Rent it maybe, but buy it? Not going to happen.

[Aryck the One]

Just to clarify, what is the difference between the conversation system in Awakening and Origins? I didn't think there was anything wrong with the conversations in Origins... Same as KOTOR.

[Arttis]

Aryck1095 V2 wrote...

Just to clarify, what is the difference between the conversation system in Awakening and Origins? I didn't think there was anything wrong with the conversations in Origins... Same as KOTOR.

supposedly you couldnt just click and talk to the members.
You had to click objects or give them items to trigger a convo.
Not completely sure.
I didnt play it and the person i watched never tried to click them.
Personally i think its fine as long as they add more convos with them.

[Feraele]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

I think a blend of the two would be best. I did like that you could walk up to a statue in Awakenings and have one of your characters initiate a conversation about it, but I thought this system was spoiled by clicking on a generic tree to initiate a dialogue with oghren that had nothing to do with trees. That just didn't make sense to me.

I like being able to ask your companions questions and get to know them better as per origins, but I did find it offputting to keep initiating dialogue with them and see the same old options again and again. Maybe it is better if conversations are scripted to happen at certain points/locations in the game, but I hope it's done in a way that lets you get closer to the characters than awakenings did.

Pretty much how I view it as well.    Even walking through an area to trigger conversation,  is less immersion breaking than having to click on a tree or a bush to get someone in your party to speak up.

I enjoyed the old way,   very much so,  but I guess Bioware is cutting costs or something like that,  so we'll have to make do with what we get.  

[Leon Evelake]

Tezzajh wrote...

Page 9 was displaying weired, perhaps bioware corrupted it because we were slagging off awkening lol, But heres my question to you, are you quite sure they intend to use the awkening system? cause alot of people mentioned that awkenings was on a low budget which is understandable as its just a expansion, so i would assume more money was going to be spent on a sequel as its a entire game, and some of the profits go towards the 2nd game from the expansion,

Also I saw on a news read that the new game was going to have a new engine built because of the graphics (100% reliable information) but this could be taken as a bad or good sign, it would be good cause you no that bioware has a bigger budget and could lead you to thinking that they would include a more expensive dialouge system but on the other hand are they using their budget to pump up the graphics and neglect other things such as the talking

I don't think I ever said it was certain or that it would not be improved, but that it or something akin to it would be used based on the information I gathered on first couple days here and from various sites saying it was likely.  I made this thread to get peoples opinions on it in the event they used it.  Which seemed likely at the time though a lot has changed.  Gaider and catcher raised the issue that a finished version would be much fuller, ten times or so, but that does not help the concern of many posters here as its not the amount but the method that we dislike.   So you could say that even though as you point out the sequel will have much more money we worry that we would just get more of  the awakening systems odd click on this thing or that thing approach.  But we don't have anything solid to go on yet so you call this hypothetical.  Sorry if I rambled I'm a bit tired.

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CATCHER thanks for telling me how to do that, I will go through and reshape my response later so if you want to respond check back in the next couple days.

[Aryck the One]

Arttis wrote...

Aryck1095 V2 wrote...

Just to clarify, what is the difference between the conversation system in Awakening and Origins? I didn't think there was anything wrong with the conversations in Origins... Same as KOTOR.

supposedly you couldnt just click and talk to the members.
You had to click objects or give them items to trigger a convo.
Not completely sure.
I didnt play it and the person i watched never tried to click them.
Personally i think its fine as long as they add more convos with them.

That does sound kind of ridiculous. From what you described, I think the conversation system in Origins would be better than Awakening...

[DanaScu]

Arrtis wrote...

Can you please not make huge quotes thank you.
I personally would like to see more clickable objects to start special conversations with your character.

Only if they use those giant glowing exclamation points over the objects so you don't have to constantly use your tab key. Think of the poor Tab keys....all that abuse. :shudders:

Seriously, though. I have *never* used the tab key as much as I did in Awakening. Enter a new area, hit the tab key, hunt the clickable objects, see if the current companions comment on the tree/statue/boat, head to a new area, hit the tab key, hunt the clickable objects, see if the current companions comment, repeat, repeat, repeat. Change out companions, go back through the same areas you've already gone through and hit the conversation triggers again to see whether your new companions want to chat about the random tree/statue/boat. Origins was, to me, a role playing game. Awakening was a hunt-the-hidden object game. It is possible to play through it without your pc initiating a single conversation with your companions. I'm not talking about what happens when you give them an "appropriate" gift, like the Howe bow or the spyglass, but a "campfire" type conversation, before someone mentions that Nathaniel talks about his grandfather, or Sigrun mentions a Legion friend.

[Tezzajh]

hang on, a problem with this awkening system is that these trigger conversations can be missed quite easily and therefore you miss important information, for example city of amerthine the chantry statue triggers a convo with Howes son, but what if i dont have him with me ? must i go through the game with the a guy who hates me? or even worse must i go through 6 diffrent loading screens to bring him to this statue. whereas origins we determine when to fight and when to talk,

[Veritasinpersonam]

To be fair, I'd buy Dragon Age 2 if David Gaider pooed in a box and slapped the bioware symbol on it.



Purchasing all things Bioware since 98.

[sotha sil magus]

well if it had the consveration topic than yes maybe but i doubt that it would.To truthy answer your question i would buy da2 simply because it is a bioware game,and lets face it bioware make very good games.Be as it may i look forward to see DA2 and maybe hope that we'd have a darkspawn compaion.

[Arttis]

Tezzajh wrote...

hang on, a problem with this awkening system is that these trigger conversations can be missed quite easily and therefore you miss important information, for example city of amerthine the chantry statue triggers a convo with Howes son, but what if i dont have him with me ? must i go through the game with the a guy who hates me? or even worse must i go through 6 diffrent loading screens to bring him to this statue. whereas origins we determine when to fight and when to talk,

They should let us switch companions out in any area with clickable objects maybe?

[CultKiller]

Regardless of the conversation system, I want to see where the story goes from here. My wardens have embarked on a quest that is clearly not finished. There are a lot of loose ends to tie up, and I wont stop playing until they are tied up. I am not a fanboy of Bioware, just a fan. However I am a fanboy of the Dragon Age games. I do not forsee Bioware making any kind of changes to the game that would keep me from playing. I want to see this journey through to the end.

However, I feel compelled to add that if this conversation system is "the future of Bioware," then I do not forsee myself buying Bioware games after the Dragon Age story concludes.

[Bratt1204]

CultKiller wrote...

Regardless of the conversation system, I want to see where the story goes from here. My wardens have embarked on a quest that is clearly not finished. There are a lot of loose ends to tie up, and I wont stop playing until they are tied up. I am not a fanboy of Bioware, just a fan. However I am a fanboy of the Dragon Age games. I do not forsee Bioware making any kind of changes to the game that would keep me from playing. I want to see this journey through to the end.

However, I feel compelled to add that if this conversation system is "the future of Bioware," then I do not forsee myself buying Bioware games after the Dragon Age story concludes.

I agree.

[DanaScu]

Tezzajh wrote...

hang on, a problem with this awkening system is that these trigger conversations can be missed quite easily and therefore you miss important information, for example city of amerthine the chantry statue triggers a convo with Howes son, but what if i dont have him with me ? must i go through the game with the a guy who hates me? or even worse must i go through 6 diffrent loading screens to bring him to this statue. whereas origins we determine when to fight and when to talk,

Yes. The Andraste statue in the courtyard at the Keep will trigger a conversation with Anders. Won't work with anyone else. The Andraste statue in Amaranthine will trigger a conversation with Howe, but not Anders. Ander's happy tree triggers his conversation, but not Sigrun's. Sigrun's happy tree is ignored by Anders. If you want the conversations, you need to go through an area with all the companions. Since you can't take that many at one time with you, you have to go through the areas more than once. Not too much of a hassle in Amaranthine, since you do go shopping there, or for other quest related stuff so its easy to trade companions in and out. But the area you find Velanna? Blackmarsh in the Fade? I still haven't managed to get all the conversations from all the companions in multiple play-throughs. And truthfully it doesn't bother me that much at this point. After I kept getting the "Want something pummeled? Just say the word." over and over again, I found myself wishing it had been Oghren instead of Mhairi that had that little problem at the Joining. Really care about him the way my Warden did in Origins, helping him with Felsi and the rest? Not hardly. I wanted to ask a few questions....

"Oghren, Alistair and Anora appointed you General. Why aren't you in Denerim? What happened with Felsi?"

"Want something pummeled? Just say the word."

"Oghren, you and Felsi have a daughter named after *me*? How is she? Healthy and safe, I hope."

"Want something pummeled? Just say the word."

Of course, you can talk about the monsters that look like pants. That makes up for everything else that's missing, right?

[Alexander1136]

i think i've already commented on this, but let me say the first games system worked just fine so dont mess with it. i was actually kinda bothered in awakening that i couldnt talk to people when i felt like it.

if my warden's story doesnt get continued im not buying anything, i didn't by darkspawn chronicles for that very reason

[Tezzajh]

my feelings exactly our guy/girl dead or alive should be continued and they should use characters from the first game however cant say i would miss sten,wynne,zeveran much, is it me or anyone else gets annoyed with shale? walking around and its bang bang bang bang gives me headaches

[wwwwowwww]

Still think they could do a mixture of both and that would actually add more to the game as a whole. I like being able to talk to my friends when I wish, but I would also like to know there thoughts on certain things (ie. statue for anders dialogue) I think both would add more depth and perspective to the game.

If you truly want to get to know your companions and understand them, having a mixture is the best way IMHO. However, I do think that instead of clicking on objects to trigger convo it should be treated just like your approaching a normal cutscene. As you get close enough to it, it automatically cuts into the convo.(first time you pass it only of course) thus eliminating the need to constantly hold the tab key looking for convo. triggers.

I don't know how hard it would be to do this personally, but I like the idea.

[Catcher]

   Perhaps I should begin with an idea. To me, all "Awakening-style conversation system" means is that conversations are fired by interactions with objects, not clicking on Companions. Consider this form of Awakenings-style system: what if Gifts were the Conversation Objects? Instead of having to search for random, environmental objects, when your Party finds a Gift and its specifc to one Companion, the conversation System fires up. Instead of getting a blanket + and perhaps a small exclamation, you would get an actual conversation about the item and its signifigance to your Companion that would allow a bit more varibility to how much Approval your PC wins. If you give the Gift to the corresponding Companion in Camp, then you can still get the conversation which covers the whole "have to have Companions at certain places" problem. In Camp itself, each Companion is busy doing something with a particular object. If this were Origins, Lelania might be playing that three-necked insturment you see on the ground in Camp, Alistair might be practicing with a Dummy (Morrigan might come over to comment that she can't tell which one's head is stuffed with straw.  ), Sten might be painting (?!), etc. When a Companion isn't doing something like that, that's the cue that he/she/it has some conversation available and you can click on the object next to them to trigger. This object could change from the "default" object to one of the Gifts if the conversation revolves around it. This implementation avoids the problems of long expositions to create Context, burning through most of the dialogue in a short time, useless "holding" conversations for those Companions who's triggers haven't fired yet, and lack of Companion agency in conversations without most of the problems of the implementation used in Awakening itself. Now onto specific issues...

      While David did mention costs, it was in passing and didn't at all seem to be at the center of his concerns over what needed "fixing" from the Origins system. As I said before the "word budget" is set well before a Project like this (whether full game, expansion, or DLC) is undertaken and by people who are at least two pay grades above David. Thus, it makes no sense to say that the Awakening System was adopted to cut costs; it could be said it was adopted in response to reduced budget but not the other way around. When David talks about efficiency what he is referring to is the need in the Origins system, where the only form of interactive character development is PC-initiated questioning, to use large amounts of expository dialogue to create Context. Alistair and Morrigan both make fun of the idea of spilling their life stories outright to the Warden, then proceed to do exactly that! Consider this, most of us get to know our friends both casual and close, through other activities that provide Context (school, parties, clubs, activities, worship, etc.) not by passing out biographies or resumes. Without a method to generate Context in Origins, the writers had to rely scads of exposition that was better-fitted to Codex entries instead of Character interactions. This is where David is concerned about costs: that exposition cost him zots in his "word budget" that could have gone to more creative discussions. It's not like cutting Dialogue means he can give the zots back. As talented as he is (he did make the Ascention Mod for BG:2 afterall) I don't think David would make an efficient Level Designer for DA or Mary an effective 3D-artist or Sheryl (Maker Help Us!) a QA Lead. The fact that they stuffed as much Companion interaction as they did for nearly as many Companions as were in Origins with less than 10% of the budget is a marvel. The fact they had to do so was a tragedy. Finally on costs, it makes no logical sense to say that the Awakening System, even in it's initial implementation cut costs. The only way you cut Dialogue costs in a game is to cut Dialogue and that would have been easier and cheaper to do keeping the Origins system (fewer camera angles and backgrounds, no need for testing a whole new System, etc.)
     
     There's a phrase I keep hearing over and over again that I'm not sure I understand: talking to the Companions "when I wish". This gets to the reason I asked what is the difference between not being able to initiate a dialogue because conditions haven't been met and getting a short "placeholder" that does nothing more than tell you that dialogue conditions haven't been met. To me, there is none other than one the first is more efficient and you don't have to keep hitting up your Companions to see if they have new dialogue. I'm looking for someone to go a bit deeper on this point because I don't understand how there's any difference when it comes to Character interaction.
   
     Riln, something else that you've said a couple of times has also piqued my curiosity. You've mentioned Bioware "going in the wrong direction". Can you elaborate on what direction you find them going and what is to you the "right" direction? I'm getting on odd feeling that some explication on that might help the conversation on a bit. Thanks.

Modifié par Catcher, 16 juin 2010 - 06:02 .

[Leon Evelake]

Catcher wrote...

   

Misconception 1: David said Bioware was implementing the Awakening Dialogue System exactly as it was implemented in Awakening. Actually, he doesn't commit to anything other than a preference for the style and explicitly states it could use improvement.

I never said that it was a sure thing this thread was to discuss peoples thoughts on the matter if that were the case.  I also said "or something akin to it" because it will obviously be expanded on, but being that awakening and origins were all that we have to go on we discussed based on that, a great deal of time was spent on how people thought it may or should turn out.  So Misconception 1 not true so for many posters

    The approval system itself needs some looking at, but insofar as the dialogues in Awakening go, consider it a work in progress...

    I think it could use some refinement, and I imagine some people are going to mistake the volume of dialogue itself (in an expansion) for the system, but overall I think it's a better way to go.

I  actually read this and it was discussed. I said as others did that our issue was not the amount of dialogue but the way the system works in and of itself,  mainly that you cannot actually initiate conversations at will.  And yes many of us don't agree on what the flaws of the original system was, many people said they like being able to get to know characters they use less, still there was a good deal of discussion how to deal with this issue.  I personally liked the suggestions of treating it as if your companions travel everywhere with you most of the time instead of being left at camp.

.

Misconception 2: The Awakening Dialogue System was instituted to cut costs. I'm just guessing that this Conclusion came from this David Gaider quote.

I said "allegedly" and that I did not really believe that was an issue but that I thought they were trying to find ways to speed up how fast the next game came  out

Still reading that quote it seems a reasonable assumption.

He does mention how expensive voiced dialogue is, but he also talks about efficiency, something that comes up far more often in all his other points. Further, this Misconception ignores the way that budgets are allocated in games (and most other business projects). The writers are given a "word budget" BEFORE they do any writing and that budget rarely changes much if at all during development. From this thread, specifically this quote.

    I think you may, in part, simply be mistaking the amount of writing that goes into a full game like DAO and the amount that can go into something like an expansion or a tiny piece of DLC. I realize some people had issues with the interface used in Awakening, but even if that interface was what you were used to in Origins that wouldn't change the fact that there was exponentially less dialogue. That's something the "use both systems!' camp seems to forget. The word budget for Awakening was less than a tenth of Origins.

again we were aware that awakening was an expansion and had less money, several people said so and I defended the game on that basis several times.  Several people made clear the issue was how the system works even if it had the amount of dialog present in origins.

Let that last sentence sink-in for a minute. Then consider that word budget also covers all conversations including the ones that trigger quests, give rewards, build a Villain or two, etc. Any system would seem poor if given less than 10% of the full game's dialogue. The fact Bioware got as much out of that is a credit to the writers and the System, not a detriment.

Misconception 3: Player-initiated conversations are being stripped out of DA2.
....

    I think some people are getting the wrong impression, that my goal is to strip out your ability to initiate dialogue. That's not the case at all. It's more a matter of when and how.

again this was discussed and many posters here hate clicking on an object to talk.  And I as well as others see the changing in "when and how"
 as a limiting of choice.

really..

    Another possibility might be spacing out dialogues in-between major plot points. You don't get to ask said character twenty questions right off the bat, no, but maybe after you complete a plot you could click on them in the camp and ask them about the plot point specifically -- and it leads into something related, perhaps at your option. I'd prefer that to exposition on their background (which is to say I'd prefer to reveal character and background while you are talking to them about something else rather than allowing the player to simply say "Tell me all about your background."

Also discussed and met mostly positively

wrong

    Err... Was someone talking about removing romance or party banter or even removing entirely the ability to talk to a follower in camp? Not me.

Not sure how much this came up in this thread, it was in the "can we get continuity in the romance department " thread.. Personally I never thought this would happen

I am glad you posted all of those I had not read several of them.  I however think you have the impression that everybody here is far less informed than many are.  The vast majority of what brought you up was discussed in one form or another and most are well aware that the system will be different in the end.  But the point of this thread was to discuss whether or not the implementation of the awakening system or something very similar would effect  peoples buying decision.  

New stuff. Above was from my original post.
Also having read your more recent post you seem to be really looking at what awakening may become, where we have been for most part discussing what it is currently (and may be if larger).  I would love to have the the characters use the items they are given and do stuff in camp and possibly initiate conversations based on whatever they are doing.  But only to supplement the existing system because the whole clicking on items feels horridly unnatural. Doing it once in a while to strike up a conversation when it makes sense like the darkspawn blood during the initiation mission in the kokari wilds in origins rather than clicking on oghrens keg to talk about his kid.  I think this is coming down to a difference of opinion.  It seems you think that the origins system was fore flawed than I do and that the item clicking option may evolve into something cooler.  I think the Origins system was essentially fine with minor flaws that to me don't really matter and would only like to see more of the original system and have the item clicking make more sense (as in what you click and what it brings up) and be used in a supplementary manner or not at all.  I like clicking on the person to talk I really like some of the spontaneous conversation stuff like Alistair yelling at you for killing Connors mom, but what appealed to me in  origins was the  depth of the immersion and the ability to create my characters personality through the in depth conversations with the other characters and I think that being able to talk directly to each character when I want to about a variety of topics I can pick from lets me do that better than responding to whatever they bring up about a statue.

Sorry if I missed anything I don't know if I read all of your posts.  
 

[Oxtail Soup]

My two pence worth..



If they have a word budget; I'd prefer there to be just two party members with the depth of DA:O, than six of the painfully 2D characters in Awakening.



I've spent the last three days trying to play Awakening, then getting bored and replaying Origins for this very reason.



I'd be happy with one rogue, one mage, one warrior and a dog if it meant I actually got attached to them.

[Aurelet]

I'd like to maybe see the Awakening Style of conversation while out and about in the world, but the Origins Style when in the camp site.