182 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

I don't know about famous exactly, or if he'd be recognized on sight, but Saren was pretty well known. He was widely hailed as the Council's top Spectre.

In ME1 you meet a great many people who know him and are given the impression he has been heard of in many places. They don't keep their Spectres totally secret, exactly.

[Cain_Novaburn]

I used to like TIM until he lied, for no reason, about the first collector ship and almost got me killed. (Coming from the view of the character). If he didn't always withhold information from the guy who is supossed to act on his intel, and also for the actions in ME1, I would have stayed loyal to Cerberus.

[Nightwriter]

Cain_Novaburn wrote...

I used to like TIM until he lied, for no reason, about the first collector ship and almost got me killed. (Coming from the view of the character). If he didn't always withhold information from the guy who is supossed to act on his intel, and also for the actions in ME1, I would have stayed loyal to Cerberus.

I know what you mean. Cerberus is effective, and they're a damn sight better at defending the galaxy in ME2 than the Council or the Alliance, but when the Illusive Man lies to you and manipulates you all the time it really makes it hard.

[Zulu_DFA]

Cain_Novaburn wrote...

I used to like TIM until he lied, for no reason, about the first collector ship and almost got me killed. (Coming from the view of the character). If he didn't always withhold information from the guy who is supossed to act on his intel, and also for the actions in ME1, I would have stayed loyal to Cerberus.

TIM gets the "Turian" transmission about damaged Collector ship. Understands it's fake. Understands it's an invitation to a trap. Sees opportunity. Runs simulations. Simulations predict high chance of shepard escaping even if untold it's a trap. If told, it would affect his behavior and radio chatter abroad the Collactor ship, so that the Collectors who will be watching him will understand that Shepard knows it's a trap. And they will try to shut it early. And the whole mission will be unsuccessful and meaningless, 'cause Shepard won't be able to make deep enough into the C-ship to access their data. TIM sends you in without telling you it's a trap. To maximize the odds of success.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 mai 2010 - 07:21 .

[fongiel24]

I have no problem working with Cerberus and TIM, given the stakes, but trusting them is another matter altogether.

Given what Shepard has seen of what the organization is capable of and what it is willing to sacrifice to achieve its ends, I can't even see a purely renegade Shepard ever trusting them. I suspect most of Cerberus' employees, even high-ranking ones like Miranda, aren't fully aware of Cerberus' more morally-questionable projects. Shepard has firsthand experience with many of these projects that less informed Cerberus recruits haven't.

For all but the most renegade Shepards, working with Cerberus to defeat the Reapers is a necessity, not a choice. Were it not for the Reaper threat, I can't see Shepard working with Cerberus willingly, knowing what s/he knows.

[Fiery Phoenix]

fongiel24 wrote...

I have no problem working with Cerberus and TIM, given the stakes, but trusting them is another matter altogether.

Given what Shepard has seen of what the organization is capable of and what it is willing to sacrifice to achieve its ends, I can't even see a purely renegade Shepard ever trusting them. I suspect most of Cerberus' employees, even high-ranking ones like Miranda, aren't fully aware of Cerberus' more morally-questionable projects. Shepard has firsthand experience with many of these projects that less informed Cerberus recruits haven't.

For all but the most renegade Shepards, working with Cerberus to defeat the Reapers is a necessity, not a choice. Were it not for the Reaper threat, I can't see Shepard working with Cerberus willingly, knowing what s/he knows.

Basically this. It's rightly said, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Just because you work with Cerberus towards one goal doesn't mean you have to be loyal to them and trust them with all your heart. It's about taking all the help you can get to maximize your chances of success. It's done all the time, even in the real world. In the case of ME2's storyline, however, Cerberus are more like allies than "friends". And I'm sure we all know the difference between a friend and an ally.

Also, weren't we provided with an option to give the Illusive Man the finger at the end of ME2 anyway? If you are a Paragon and choose to destroy the base at the end, you're more or less on your own from that point on. Or at least that's how the game seems to translate it.

[Lumikki]

I don't think anyone can trust TIM, but using his resource to get something done is different. In my opinion TIM just use people to get the result what he wants. Hole idea Shepard working with cerberus is about having same goals, protecting people. Like at the moment having mutual benefit goals.

As for someones Shepard working willingly to Cerberus, I see it as option, any renegade Shepard. For paragon Shepard, that's not so easy choise, more like forced situation. I think TIM's way to do stuff is little extreme, like sending team to trap and trusting the team get the job done without knowing that it's the trap. TIM is just too ruthless to be paragon.

Modifié par Lumikki, 19 mai 2010 - 08:02 .

[fongiel24]

The problem is TIM's definition of "humanity" and "enemies". As TIM says at the end, what's best for Cerberus is what's best for humanity. If Cerberus is willing to do whatever it takes to safeguard its definition of humanity, anybody standing in their way can be considered fair game. "Win-at-all-costs" is not a strategy conducive to cooperation, either with the Alliance or the rest of the galaxy. It works for now when Cerberus is focused on the Reapers, but what happens once the Reapers are defeated?



Shepard working with Cerberus is a race. Shepard must utilize Cerberus' resources to defeat the Reapers before Cerberus decides s/he is no longer useful and makes him expendable. Based on Cerberus' history, the only thing Shepard can count on is TIM abandoning or betraying him once Shepard has served his purpose. People are expendable resources for TIM. If Shepard thinks his loyalty to Cerberus will be rewarded in kind, s/he is either a fool or s/he hasn't been paying attention.

[Zulu_DFA]

fongiel24 wrote...

The problem is TIM's definition of "humanity" and "enemies". As TIM says at the end, what's best for Cerberus is what's best for humanity. If Cerberus is willing to do whatever it takes to safeguard its definition of humanity, anybody standing in their way can be considered fair game. "Win-at-all-costs" is not a strategy conducive to cooperation, either with the Alliance or the rest of the galaxy. It works for now when Cerberus is focused on the Reapers, but what happens once the Reapers are defeated?

Shepard working with Cerberus is a race. Shepard must utilize Cerberus' resources to defeat the Reapers before Cerberus decides s/he is no longer useful and makes him expendable. Based on Cerberus' history, the only thing Shepard can count on is TIM abandoning or betraying him once Shepard has served his purpose. People are expendable resources for TIM. If Shepard thinks his loyalty to Cerberus will be rewarded in kind, s/he is either a fool or s/he hasn't been paying attention.

It so happens to be the case with any organization. When they no longer need you, they fire you.

[Wildecker]

Shandepared wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Says who? The council never once said that was a spectre's purpose... In fact, the only spectre to demonstrate that kind of attitude was Saren who killed all those civilians when going around with Anderson. 

"The mission must always come first." - Salarian Councilor

Furthermore, look at a Spectres' privilages. Why give them immunity from prosecution unless you wanted them to succeed at any cost, even if it meant breaking the law?

The writing is on the wall.

To borrow a line from a Renegade Shepard: "If you want a problem shot, ask a Turian." The Council has experience with Turian Spectres and their preferred approach, and not even every Turian is happy about that - just ask Executor Pallin at his C-Sec office in ME 1. Or Garrus' father, at that.
If you want to do your job the Turian way and shoot every suspect and a couple of bystanders because you feel "better safe than sorry!", they'll accept it if your mission met its objective. It doesn't hurt to bring a fall guy along on whom you can pin some excess blame just in case - like Anderson.

However, they will not be disappointed if you can get the job done without leaving the site littered with bodies - at least the Asari and the Salarian won't, while the Turian will always scoff at you no matter what you do. Even if it's hard to argue against success.
Demonstrate that subtlety and discretion are not counterproductive to the mission, and they'll welcome the thought of appointing a few more human Spectres. Some competition might even get the Turian Spectres to reconsider their modus operandi.

Modifié par Wildecker, 19 mai 2010 - 09:21 .

[Asheer_Khan]

I will ask last time here.



WHO GIVES TIM RIGHT TO SPEAK IN NAME OF THE HUMANITY?

[Onyx Jaguar]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I will ask last time here.

WHO GIVES TIM RIGHT TO SPEAK IN NAME OF THE HUMANITY?

Himself?

[uhdnrt]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Himself?

Samara sums it up the best: does he have the intelligence to use the technology and adapt it?  Yes?  But does he have the wisdom to use it correctly?  Based of nthe fact that every action Cerberus initiates starts with TIM, the answer to that is likely no.  While Instances like Jack went too far after it was started, it still started with TIM.

Cerberus's actions are more similar to the Krogan and the ruination of Tuchanka than many are comfrotable with - and I think that is the point.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yeah but when you ask "WHO GIVES TIM RIGHT TO SPEAK IN NAME OF THE HUMANITY?"



I'll always reply with whoever takes that right



*drenches himself in Narcissim and arrogance*



For instance I speak in the name of Humanity!

[Wildecker]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I will ask last time here.

WHO GIVES TIM RIGHT TO SPEAK IN NAME OF THE HUMANITY?

Sorry, but that is a dumb question. Who gave Shepard that right? Anderson and Udina have been chosen to represent mankind at the Citadel Council - depending on your proposal in ME 1, one of them as Councilor, the other as his advisor.

Mankind does not speak with one voice, and never has.

Noentheless, when Shepard goes to visit the Quarians and solve their little Geth problem or talks to Legion, he is the alpha human on location, and mankind will be measured according to what he says and does. Explaining to them that you will need to talk to your government before you can tell them more than the time of day is extremely silly.

[Zulu_DFA]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I will ask last time here.

WHO GIVES TIM RIGHT TO SPEAK IN NAME OF THE HUMANITY?

He does't need a "right". He needs only ability. Which he has got. It's up to history to make him right or wrong.

[Zulu_DFA]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

For instance I speak in the name of Humanity!

IN THE NAME OF HUMANITY,

[Onyx Jaguar]

I tell ya man, when those aliens begin their invasion I'm gonna be the first one they talk to. I'm so going to Dr. Breen this situation.



Sure Asheer_Kahn will ask what gave me the right, but it will be pointless because many of you guys would be working husks while the rest would be infertile. Initiative > everything

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I tell ya man, when those aliens begin their invasion I'm gonna be the first one they talk to. I'm so going to Dr. Breen this situation.

Sure Asheer_Kahn will ask what gave me the right, but it will be pointless because many of you guys would be working husks while the rest would be infertile. Initiative > everything

If you ever try to pull of a Dr.Breen on humanity, I will personally hunt you down with a crowbar! 

[Zulu_DFA]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Initiative > everything

I kinda want to hear TIM saying it:

"Shepard, we've got initiative. Now it's time to use it against the enemies of Humanity."

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 mai 2010 - 10:21 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
Initiative > everything

I kinda want to hear TIM saying it:

"Shepard, we've got initiative. Now it's time to use it against the enemies of Humanity."

Darn right.

I really do hope we have the option to remain loyal to Cerberus in ME3.

[DPSSOC]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I will ask last time here.

WHO GIVES TIM RIGHT TO SPEAK IN NAME OF THE HUMANITY?

Everybody; Anderson, Udina, everyone who sat back and did nothing while the Collectors were doing their scavenger hunt in the Terminus.  The moment Cerberus was the only one to step up to the plate and actually defend humanity they earned the right to speak for them.

For example, if you're in a sinking ship and everyone's panicking so you stand up and take charge, who gave you that right?  Everyone who chose to do nothing.

[Mangalores]

DPSSOC wrote...
....

Everybody; Anderson, Udina, everyone who sat back and did nothing while the Collectors were doing their scavenger hunt in the Terminus.  The moment Cerberus was the only one to step up to the plate and actually defend humanity they earned the right to speak for them.
....

The thing is that that's Cerberus' excuse and thus a very lopsided view. While the Council didn't openly help in ME1 it becomes very clear lateron that alot of their resources were spreading around to get behind the development even if they didn't share Shephard's theories (Salarian task forces running all around the Verge for instance). The lethargy in ME2 seem strange to me, however the problem seems more that we don't hear anything the Alliance is doing and nothing the Council is doing which is not precisely the same as them doing nothing which is imo not really explainable. For instance if the Alliance was ticked off by Eden Prime they would be a hundred fold more ticked off by the Collectors and if the Council was willing to start a full investigation on events in ME1 they would have even less trouble doing so with the humans being part of the council.

I always took it that we only hear Cerberus' very lopsided version of it all because otherwise it seems hardly plausible. It is also implied that it were only human colonies in the verge who obviously rejected Alliance and thus Council sovereignity which is why no official reactions are to be seen. Ashley/Kaidan's mission at least imply covert operations being underway.


I was also disappointed that full renegade did imply fully pro-Cerberus instead of full anti-all-those-****s-who-want-to-use-me-I-am-in-charge-now-and-do-what-it-takes.

I certainly hope we can take out Cerberus in ME3 in some way or another.

Modifié par Mangalores, 19 mai 2010 - 11:05 .